Class 319 flex - upcycling for the north

[black and decker boy]

Porterbrook have confirmed they are creating the class 319 Flex for Northern

 

https://www.porterbrook.co.uk/news/post.php?s=2016-12-22-porterbrook-and-northern-to-introduce-bi-mode-class-319-flex-trains

 

A sensible idea I think

[woodenhead]

Very sensible, wonder what routes they are planning to use them on - I think they are looking to extend the Liverpool to Manchester services via Warrington Central when Oxford road begins reconstruction - that would extend the element of the route under wires as I think Stockport was in the plan.

 

Trains on to and beyond Stalybridge?

 

These are the bi-modes for the Barrow to Manchester airport services are they?

[Supaned]

Whilst an admirable concept , they're still only re-hashing 20 year old trains.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Vehicle Acceptance Body deal with these , given that one of the reasons cited for the Voyager bi-mode project being shelved was that the conversion would effectively render it a new train , and as such the traction kit would no longer meet the current standards in terms of electrical interference.I trust a 319 is a lot simpler and electrically "cleaner" 

[black and decker boy]

Whilst an admirable concept , they're still only re-hashing 20 year old trains.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Vehicle Acceptance Body deal with these , given that one of the reasons cited for the Voyager bi-mode project being shelved was that the conversion would effectively render it a new train , and as such the traction kit would no longer meet the current standards in terms of electrical interference.I trust a 319 is a lot simpler and electrically "cleaner"

My understanding was more that Bombardier were never that bothered and their price never that keen. The fact the body jigs for the voyagers were scrapped at the end of the build meant that DfT decided that it wasn't worth the cost & hassle so let it die it's Own slow death

[grahame]

Whilst an admirable concept , they're still only re-hashing 20 year old trains.

 

 

IIRC the 319s were first introduced 1987/88 making those ones 30 years old next year.

 

G

[phil-b259]

Whilst an admirable concept , they're still only re-hashing 20 year old trains.

 

It will be interesting to see how the Vehicle Acceptance Body deal with these , given that one of the reasons cited for the Voyager bi-mode project being shelved was that the conversion would effectively render it a new train , and as such the traction kit would no longer meet the current standards in terms of electrical interference.I trust a 319 is a lot simpler and electrically "cleaner" 

 

The big problems that thwarted with the Votager bi-mode plan were

 

(1) the jigs to actually build the vehicles had been scraped and would need to be recreated again - which was uneconomic given the amount new vehicles that would be ordered.

(2) The existing Voyagers themselves would require a complete re-wire - as they were not designed to pass traction supplies between vehicles.

 

Unit recertification / type approval was a minor thing in the overall scheme of things and made no difference to whether the project went ahead or not

 

By contrast this new proposal for the 319s specifically uses the existing 750V power connection between vehicles (that was used to link the 3rd rail shoegear at each end of the unit together) to distribute the power from the diesel generators to the traction motors, slashing the costs involved as the existing wiring remains largely unaltered. In this respect it is not dissimilar to the D train project - which also reuses the LU traction motors (and possibly the inter car 650V power connections) they had under LU ownership.

[Bomag]

Given the 319s traction motors are rated at about 1400hp then it will need a couple of large 185/220 sized engines. I know the driving cars have very little under them but will the engine be limited in size.

 

The press release is a bit off the wall - talking about there not being a 'go-anywhere' train. Funny I was thinking that we've had those funny DMUs for over 60 years.

[woodenhead]

I am guessing wherever the 319 goes when it is not under wires speed will not be of the essence so the motor will be sized accordingly - they are commuter trains not inter city or long distance express units.

 

Waits for announcement that Northern intends to use them on Leeds-Manchester-Liverpool via Warrington fast services............

[phil-b259]

Given the 319s traction motors are rated at about 1400hp then it will need a couple of large 185/220 sized engines. I know the driving cars have very little under them but will the engine be limited in size.

 

The press release is a bit off the wall - talking about there not being a 'go-anywhere' train. Funny I was thinking that we've had those funny DMUs for over 60 years.

 

That may not be an issue - in the sense that as they retain their 25KV capability for bits like the WCML then having slightly worse performance characteristics while on diesel may well prove acceptable.

 

Whats the gradient profiles like on the Chat Moss line or the Barrow / Windermere routes where diesel power would be necessary? (Note that the Manchester - Oxenholme section can be done under 25KV as can the final approch to Liverpool)

[lmsforever]

If this concept works its going to give passengers a reasonable train quickly and one that will indeed offer flexibility routes to Manchester from the north will benefit .Who cares if they are thirty years old they work and that's whats needed and they are running for Northern already so no probs for crew or maintainence.

[locoholic]

This is getting a bit desperate and surreal, isn't it? The 21st century railway is becoming a Make Do and Mend system. One could be forgiven for thinking that those in charge were not entirely up to the job.

[Edwin_m]

This is getting a bit desperate and surreal, isn't it? The 21st century railway is becoming a Make Do and Mend system. One could be forgiven for thinking that those in charge were not entirely up to the job.

I couldn't possibly comment...

 

Suggestion on another forum is that an engine of 600bhp or so would fit under an end car, two of these in a four-car unit giving a power:weight ratio similar to a 150 so adequate for relatively low-speed branches such as Windermere.  Some software changes are probably needed in the traction package to limit its overall power when in diesel mode to what the generators can provide.  However the interior would probably remain similar to Northern's 319s (and 150s) so would be a step down from the "Northern Connect" service Windermere was expecting. 

[SwissRailPassion]

The 150s are pretty shoddy and in need of serious work so the D319 could provide a better train with more capacity. Something has to be done because the GWML mess has totally ruined the cascade planned for Scotrail, Northern, GWR, Wales, LM. The electrification collapse means TPE and Northern have to face wrecked premiums and timetable planning chaos.

The 'greatest investment since Victorian times' has ended in farce and incompetence. The costs saved by curtailing GWML electrification at £165M are nothing compared to the recurring costs which will be needed to cope with the knock-on effects of this weak decision.

That D319s are seen as a sensible stopgap shows how catastrophic the situation really is. It was very dangerous to appoint a non-railway man to head NR at a critical time.

[mcowgill]

It sounds a sensible idea as long as they are only used for short journeys off the wires, a reasonable solution to Windermere for example.

 

However I suspect these stop'gap bi-mode trains will drive another nail into the coffin of electrification in the short to medium term.  We've already seen GW switching to a fully bi-mode fleet to cope with not just the West of England main line but now the gaps around Bristol and the Oxford line, DafT have refused to wire Hull as the Hull Trains new fleet is bi-mode and "The passenger benefits can be delivered without the significant disruption of electrification".

 

The enhanced speed of electrified lines and reduced pollution seem to be being ignored with the bi-mode train being latched on to, particularly by DafT, as something akin to Roger Ford's bionic duckweed of the last decade.

 

Martin

[royaloak]

MAN D2876 seems to be the engine of choice-

 

http://www.engines.man.eu/global/en/off-road/rail/product-range/Product-Range.html

 

Thanks to SprinterMeister for the link.

[phil-b259]

I couldn't possibly comment...

 

Suggestion on another forum is that an engine of 600bhp or so would fit under an end car, two of these in a four-car unit giving a power:weight ratio similar to a 150 so adequate for relatively low-speed branches such as Windermere.  Some software changes are probably needed in the traction package to limit its overall power when in diesel mode to what the generators can provide.  However the interior would probably remain similar to Northern's 319s (and 150s) so would be a step down from the "Northern Connect" service Windermere was expecting. 

 

Not necessarily

 

If they can do this www.eadt.co.uk/news/see_inside_greater_anglia_s_newly_upgraded_train_running_between_ipswich_colchester_and_london_1_4820284 to 30 class 321 units (which are pretty much the same in age terms), the same can be done to a 319.

 

Just because the current 319s haven';t been upgraded doesn't automatically it won't happen - particularly if the plan is to use them on the 'Northern Connect' services the DfT created as part of their messing round with the Northern / TPE franchises. Whether the powers that be (the DfT that is are willing to let it happen - higher spec interiors mean the trains cost more to lease) is another matter.

[Christopher125]

However I suspect these stop'gap bi-mode trains will drive another nail into the coffin of electrification in the short to medium term.

I see this as buying some time to get the wires up without committing long term to more new DMUs or bi-modes - that seems pretty sensible to me.

[Andy W]

Whats the gradient profiles like on the Chat Moss line or the Barrow / Windermere routes where diesel power would be necessary? (Note that the Manchester - Oxenholme section can be done under 25KV as can the final approch to Liverpool)

Did you mean the CLC route rather than Chat Moss? 319s already use Chat Moss to get between Manchester and Liverpool without any need for adding diesel engines.

[Edwin_m]

Not necessarily

 

If they can do this www.eadt.co.uk/news/see_inside_greater_anglia_s_newly_upgraded_train_running_between_ipswich_colchester_and_london_1_4820284 to 30 class 321 units (which are pretty much the same in age terms), the same can be done to a 319.

 

Just because the current 319s haven';t been upgraded doesn't automatically it won't happen - particularly if the plan is to use them on the 'Northern Connect' services the DfT created as part of their messing round with the Northern / TPE franchises. Whether the powers that be (the DfT that is are willing to let it happen - higher spec interiors mean the trains cost more to lease) is another matter.

That could happen but I think it is unlikely.  Firstly because it didn't happen to Northern's other 319s and secondly because the auxiliary load for aircon might be too much when on diesel power. 

[locoholic]

This thread should be subtitled "Scrapheap Challenge"...

[david.hill64]

Interesting that they plan to use the DC bus. A long time ago there was a plan to put a DC bus on 313's for use on the North London line to overcome gapping problems, but the safety case was rejected as there was a possibility that the bus could cause the wring side failure of a DC track circuit. be interesting to see if this is still a problem. Any DC track circuits still in use in the North west?

[cheesysmith]

Looking at what happening on the railwys at the moment, you have to think that the DaFT don`t have a clue. Reusing the 319 up north was a good way to get electric trains cheaply and improve the running of the network. These will have the performance of a 150 when under diesel power (if were lucky) but have the higher track access cost due to the heavy axle mounted motors wearing the tracks out, but without the benifits of the higher performance that EMU bring. Are EMUs permitted to use the higher permissable speeds that sprinters can? (shades of the 185s again). Thats before we get to how much rot is under the skin of these trains, having the nice vinals stuck to them for years, that trap moisture and rot the steel bodies. And thats before we get to the disabled super bogs that take up a 1/3 of a 20m coach.

 

Heres a better idea. The 321s are going to be avalible soon, and some have already been reduced to 3 cars. Some of these as 3 cars to replace the 323s going to Birmingham(which would allow them to keep nearer to the performance of the 323s, which the 319s can`t), the spare trailers reused with the remotoring and some reforming of sets to make 6 coach 321s, with 2 power cars, to minimised the lost passinger capacity from the super bogs (you would only loose 2/3 of a coach for a 12 coach train instead of a full coach if using 3x4car vs 2x6 car). The increase of motors per train would allow regenerative braking to be more effective (the problem with the upgraded 321s is they cannot fully use regenerative braking like the newer units due to the lower number of powered axles).

 

As to where to use these longer 321s, well I`m sorry to all the londoners out there, but I cannot see the economics of using all brand new trains just to be used twice a day for the peak communting into and out of london. Spreading new trains around so they are used more of the time and reserving perfectly good older stock just for the rush hours that has already paid for itself sounds like a cheaper idea in the long run, and we are continually being told we like in a time of asterity.

[cheesysmith]

Interesting that they plan to use the DC bus. A long time ago there was a plan to put a DC bus on 313's for use on the North London line to overcome gapping problems, but the safety case was rejected as there was a possibility that the bus could cause the wring side failure of a DC track circuit. be interesting to see if this is still a problem. Any DC track circuits still in use in the North west?

 

Don`t 313s already have a DC bus? After all, they are electrically a 750v DC unit, with a pantograph/transformer/rectifier on the centre coach to feed the DC bits on the outer motor coaches?

[david.hill64]

Don`t 313s already have a DC bus? After all, they are electrically a 750v DC unit, with a pantograph/transformer/rectifier on the centre coach to feed the DC bits on the outer motor coaches?

 

IIRC the problem was a desire to bus together the shoegear on both motor coaches, but that wasn't allowed so the NLR sets had shoegear on all motor coach bogies. I cannot remember how the onboard traction system wiring goes, but wiki reports that unlike other DC units the motor cars have seperate supplies when working DC. 

SR units had a bus but the third rail lines were fitted with AC track circuits before the advent of traction immune types so no problem.

[phil-b259]

That could happen but I think it is unlikely.  Firstly because it didn't happen to Northern's other 319s and secondly because the auxiliary load for aircon might be too much when on diesel power. 

 

I would be careful about using the previous 319 introductions to prove future intent for a number of reasons.

 

Firstly I believe they were introduced in something of a hurry because the Governemt was facing new OHLE but no trains available to use it and secondly, the previous Northern franchise was in its last days with no firm plan in Whitehall as to what the replacement would look like making spending large quantities of money inadvisable.

 

Thus the 319s, with a quick refresh were the obvious solution to the immediate problem.

 

There is also the question of what services they are being used on - as I understand it the 319s are effectively used on stopping and semi-fast Liverpool - Manchester / Wigan duties which are somewhat different from say TPE Express services that cross the Pennines. As such a more urban / metro / basic interior fit out may be appropriate.

 

I would also suggest that if the proposed 319 Flex concept is sucessfull then the leasing company and Northern may be interested in rolling the mod out across all their 319 fleet - which could result in a better interior being fitted to all class members.

 

Put it this way if Northern and the leasing company are left to work things out we may be pleasantly surprised. If on the other hand the 'dead hand of Whitehall and the mandarins in Whitehall that specified the class 800 interiors have any input then yes, interior standards are unlikely to match the aspirations of travellers.