Residency Post-Brexit

[Horsetan]

This is a current source of friction here at SM42 Towers. I can see potential  problems at the UK border. Mrs SM42 doesn't and is quite rightly proud of her EU nationality of birth

 

We have had a look at the 85 page form to apply for a residency (Mrs SM42 having lived and worked in the UK for over 10 years now and although has a current right to reside under EU law, this could all change)  and though we have not fully read all the notes, it seems we need to have bank statements and pay slips spread across the last 5 years (who keeps those for five years? Mrs SM42 doesn't, I don't) and also have details of all time outside the UK in that period.  Can everyone here say when they went abroad over the last five years in more detail than a month and year.? We can't.

Thing is, not all of those 85 pages will be relevant to your wife's particular position. When I last looked at the EEA(PR) form for a client, there was a note in it saying only to print those pages which applied to the applicant, i.e. not all 85. That said, it's not much good if you've printed it all out....only to discover that note! My own Surinder Singh client has a slight problem since her husband retired from work after returning to the UK, and he's had the devil's own job trying to find all his bank statements for the last five years, especially after a house move. 

 

Going the other way, I don't think my language is up to the job (even after 8 years of trying to learn it, probably due to lack of practice) and I am only resident for a few weeks a year. Neither do I have any closet Irish grandparents unfortunately

You won't be the only one. Historically Britain has been something of a monoglot nation - after all, when you've had a controlling interest in up to a quarter of the globe, why should you learn another language? The French take a similar attitude, albeit with a somewhat smaller historical empire.

 

We have also quite  recently seen the experience of a recently married friend who spent 5 months trying to get an express application for his non EU wife to be able to stay initially  in the UK for 2yrs 6 mnths. ( and then  they will have to go through the process again I believe)  They had kept everything. She was living and working in the UK before they married. They had professional help and it still took several months instead of the promised weeks. They think their application was too good to be true.  At one point she was even told to go to an embassy in another country for interview, despite the fact that the local British Embassy had her passport. 

 

We are therefore understandably concerned and probably need to find some help but finding a reputable source of help isn't  easy....

My colleague and I deal with immigration as that is part of our Firm's specialisation.

 

That's the first time I've heard of people being sent to a British outpost elsewhere for an interview, having submitted their application to a Visa Centre in their home country. It is but one symptom of cost-cutting. Until a few years ago, virtually every country (except notably Iraq) had a British outpost with its own entry clearance / visa section. From about 2012, possibly earlier, in a drive to cut costs, these were shut down, and all decision-making was moved to "regional decision-making centres" so, for example, Manila handles all decision-making for much of South-East Asia, and Sheffield(!) handles all Caribbean applications, as well as Ghana.

 

The side-effect is that we, as Solicitors, are no longer able to contact entry clearance officers and teams directly to make representations where mistakes have been made because ALL contact details have been deleted!! I note that the only Solicitors who can are those who have insider contacts, or who are part of an unspoken "magic circle".

 

If you get it wrong, and your entry clearance application is refused, then the average waiting time for an appeal hearing at the First-Tier Tribunal is 18 months (which is itself subject to lack of (wo)manpower and resources), to say nothing of the costs of instructing a Solicitor and Counsel to represent. In October 2016, the Tribunal fees increased by up to 500% but were reduced a month later to their original levels after a considerable backlash.

 

---------------

 

Here's a recent example of how entry clearance can really start to feck things up. An Italian client of mine, and his (Ghanaian) wife, instructed me to apply for an EEA Family Permit for his daughter to come from Ghana to live with them in Glasgow. This should have been pretty straightforward, given that they had been supporting her financially and visiting her during holidays, whilst pursuing their own Treaty Rights in Britain. However, they hadn't reckoned without the Entry Clearance Officer in Sheffield. The ECO turned the application down on the basis that he wasn't satisfied that the daughter was genuinely the daughter of my client, even though we had thought ahead of the game and submitted a DNA test report - at great expense - which proved that there was a 99.999999% chance that the daughter was the daughter of my clients! To their credit, they weren't taking this lying down, so in went the Tribunal appeal (fee: £140) and we waited, and waited.....and waited some more.

 

Meanwhile, whilst the waiting game was going on, my client's wife went into hospital for treatment for back pain. Whilst there, she was diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer with a life expectancy of eight months at best. This in a woman who had never smoked or touched alcohol in her entire life. Anyhow, the consultant couldn't have been more helpful - we had detailed medical reports which were quickly sent in to the Tribunal to try to bring the hearing forward. Still nothing happened.

 

Only in October 2016, some four months after the appeal had been submitted, did someone in Croydon (not Sheffield) wake up and review the case, withdrawing the decision to refuse. Even after sending in representations to Croydon, trying to get the Family Permit issued as a matter of urgency because of the mother's now very limited life expectancy, there was still a delay. On 6th November 2016, the mother died. The daughter was not issued with the Family Permit until five days after that. She arrived in Glasgow just in time to see her mother buried.

 

Not a word of acknowledgment from Croydon or Sheffield. It is as if we had been, to use a legal term, p*ssing into the wind.

[Bernard Lamb]

This thread was started by Edge because he had a genuine problem and did not know which way to turn.

Several others joined in, some with greater problems than others.

Could we please try and keep this thread on track in providing information on the subject and not let it dissolve into yet another rant.

Please start another topic if you must go over the same ground yet again.

There are some people who are very stressed out with the uncertainty as to what the future holds regarding where they can live and if they can keep their families together.

We will always wander off topic, but please bear in mind the seriousness of the situation for those involved, no matter if they are non UK citizens here or UK citizens in other EU countries.

To be blunt please show some respect and leave this thread for those involved.

Unless of course you can answer the question "Why did you want to move to the UK?".

The box on the form will hold about six short words.

Bernard

[hayfield]

I agree totally with your sentiments here, but it is a great shame you tarnish it with what is, frankly, pure propaganda worthy of Trump (and Farage), much of which has been disproved time and again.

 

Why are you comparing me to either Farage and Trump (who has nothing to do with it anyway, certainly what I have said has been dismissed by some, but not disproved

 

Just take Greece, the favourite bete noire. More than half the money it owes is to the IMF, not the ECB. The UK is a large creditor via the IMF, but not, as so often misreported, via the ECB. I did not see any UK govt member suggesting we should forgive or reduce that debt ourselves. Blame the EU often enough and the facts get lost. As soon as there was any suggestion that the UK should advocate a more lenient position, a magical 180 degree argument would come out, saying we should not prop up a failed country etc etc.

 

Our government just stood back, as Arthur put it This was a mess that was created by both the EU's failed political dogma and the EU's inability in anything but false accounting, lets face it many EU countries failed to show the real financial mess they were in and even the EU's own accounts fail to be signed off in a timely matter and apparently show massive fraud taking place. Lets face it the Greek debt is unsustainable, a good portion of it will have to be written off.  They should never been allowed into the Euro (like some others) and once in should have been made to comply to the rules. Both these things can only be the blame of the EU

 

Take immigration from outside the EU, which despite the "points system" introduced from 2012, is still as high as that from the EU and was consistently higher up until a few years ago. It seems Australia, for one, is demanding easier immigration to the UK as the price for a trade deal, and India has mentioned the same. Trump is about to go "America First" but we will get the greatest deal ever from him, and even have far more UK folk working there? Just how contradictory can this whole mess get?

 

But many of our citizens come from Commonwealth as well as other countries and qualify by the fact they took out British Citizenship, or have British parentage, or just marrying a British citizens. Taking control of immigration does not mean stopping it, likewise it does not mean sending UK residents back to their own countries of birth. I have heard more from remainers about this that the Brexit camp

 

As for legal and bureaucratic interference by the EU, after the banana farce, no-one in the Leave camp could actually name any real issues, except of course immigration. They actually tried to argue that Human Rights are a "bad thing", as though we did not invent them in the first place, with the ECHR in the 1950's (nothing to do with the EU). Bureaucracy will inevitably increase manifoldly if, as Mrs May seems determined, we leave the single market, a key point of which is the lack of customs checks and common standards acceptance.

 

The fact is many of the southern European countries just ignore the rules, where from some form of fair play the UK goes overboard to comply, membership of the EU dictated we are members of the ECHR, which means it is very difficult to expel EU (and other citizens) who abuse and take advantage of our hospitality. What about the EU rules on fishing quotas , which most southern member countries seem to ignore anyway. 

 

Common sense is a phrase much over-used as it means completely different things to different people. It is "common sense" that the UK should be preserved, albeit dominated by England. But apparently it is also "common sense" that the EU should be split up, as no one country should dominate another. Well, which is it?

 

The UK is run on a democratic basis, that's why it may be thought England donates the UK, don't forget England has a high percentage of people who came from other countries within the UK (my farther for one). The last Labour administration was voted in and kept it by large support from both Scotland and Wales and its leadership was more representative of the Celtic Nations than the English. Hardly English dominated  

 

That is why I fear that "common sense" and "logic" may not prevail for EU residents, or for UK citizens (actually "subjects") residing in the EU. I see scant evidence to date, and "posturing" (by both sides) often leads to intransigent, entrenched positions, rather than a negotiation by grown-ups. Please, please send us some grown-ups.....

 

The UK, especially England has welcomed folk from all over the world, we are probably the most cosmopolitan nation in the EU and certainly the most welcoming, so why is it going to change? I am getting a bit fed up with all these remainers who think they own the high ground and in my opinion simply scare mongering.    

[Guest]

I don't really "get" threads like this on RMWeb. That's not to say I don't have sympathy for the OP.

The 75C household is off on a one-way ticket out of the UK in July 2019. Do the maths... it's highly likely the UK will be firmly outside of the EU by then. We can't go sooner, or believe me, we would. Am I worried? Well of course. Would I look to a model railway forum for advice? Don't be daft. No disrespect, but nobody here knows. It is all just speculation. Page after page of "what ifs".

That isn't the fault of RMWeb members. It's just that nobody knows.

The only certainty is that eventually this thread will eventually take a very nasty turn just like the other one did. Whilst I wish the OP the very best, I fear you're just going to have to wait a bit longer for answers. I've resigned myself to that.

[APOLLO]

The reality of the situation as it stands is that IF every / most foreign nationals who are legally here and in employment / pay taxes etc were asked to leave, then the whole of the UK would immediately implode, starting with our beloved N.H.S. Think also Polish plumbers / builders etc etc etc. (and not just Polish either). It's not just the employed either, non working spouses / children etc need to be catered for also.

 

I'm sure the Government know this, and it would be suicide for the nation to go down this route. People need concrete & binding re-assurance from Government on this matter ASAP. As far as i am concerned it should NOT be a bargaining tool re Brexit. What the remaining EU does is up to them. Hopefully a common sense agreement can be found - but people already here need clarity NOW.

 

Brit15

[SM42]

Going back to the original question. (Wow! Imagine that.)

 

The You Gov website indicates that if you have lived in the UK for 5 years as an EU/EEA national  then one can apply for a permanent residence document or a registration certifcate for less than 5 years.  Cost is I believe £65 at present

 

The site states there have been  no changes to  the rights of EU/EEA nationals as a result of the referendum, (after all we haven't left the EU yet)  but whether this right will extend post departure who knows and I get very confused reading the information as it seems to go on about none EEA nationals quite a lot.

 

In response to Horsetan's last post , yes I had noticed the only print the pages that apply from the 85 page form, and apparently a selection of documents spread over the 5 years is sufficient.

 

The time spent outside the UK is the sticking point depending on how much detail is required (I have yet to delve further into this.  ) As you can imagine 5 years involves quite a lot of visits to the family back home as well as other trips to other EU countries.

 

The problem is that I get the impression that this is a one shot deal. Mess it up and there is a long wait before you can try again.

 

Finally, Horestan, it seems that embassies in some Russian Federation states seem to be doing visa business via Moscow  now.

 

Andy

[Horsetan]

....The problem is that I get the impression that this is a one shot deal. Mess it up and there is a long wait before you can try again.

It isn't, theoretically, but in practice the long waiting time makes it one - 6 months now for a simple residence card, for example. An EU-related applicant can try as many times as (s)he likes. Depends how many times you want to pay £65, though.

 

Finally, Horestan, it seems that embassies in some Russian Federation states seem to be doing visa business via Moscow now.

 

This all goes back to my earlier point about cost-saving by giving everything to a regional centre.