Residency Post-Brexit

[trisonic]

Sorry I deleted my original post in case of misleading people.

 

Is the answer then for people residing in the EU to take on local citizenship whilst retaining British citizenship (if allowed by the host country)?

 

Best, Pete.

[phil-b259]

It has changed since 2012, and it really depends on the category you're in. For your example of spouses of British citizens / settled persons, it's now five years for an incoming spouse, served in two periods of 30 months each (money), before you become entitled to apply for indefinite leave (more money). And don't forget the £200 Immigration Health Surcharge that you must pay for each year of stay (even more money). This also assumes that your British spouse also earns the minimum of £18,600 pa (or has savings of at least almost £70,000 if not); if you're bringing children in, then the minimum income goes up accordingly.

 

And you definitely need to pass a two-stage English / Knowledge of Life in the UK test for the indefinite leave stage (yet more money).

 

All of the expense incurred makes Solicitors' fees look cheap.

 

 

I believe all that only applies to non EU / EEA citizens - after all EU laws on the freedom of movement ban any restriction on movement or 'extra' charges for the likes of the NHS. This has frequently been a bone of contention in the tabloid press when people from Australia or Canada for example have found they cannot bring their spouses / family over here due to the cost but EU citizens can move here with no restrictions.

 

As the OP was referring to his Hungarian friend, and Hungary is a member of the EU then none of your comments apply to in particular case - all she needs to do is fill out a form and become a permanent resident - after which (assuming she has been here for 6 years IIRC) she can immediately apply to become a British citizen. No extra 'fees' (over and above the usual admin ones) or 'minimum income' stuff will apply to her.

[phil-b259]

Sorry I deleted my original post in case of misleading people.

 

Is the answer then for people residing in the EU to take on local citizenship whilst retaining British citizenship (if allowed by the host country)?

 

Best, Pete.

 

This is perfectly permissible under UK law AND other EU member states are prohibited from refusing an application made by a UK Citizen to also become a citizen of said EU state.

 

However the moment we leave the EU (2 years after article 50 is triggered) such provision ceases to exist and the French / Germans / Hungarians / etc will be quite within their rights to say that any person wanting to obtain citizenship of their country must renounce their British citizenship (as they currently do with people from outside the EU).

 

So the moto is if you want to guarantee to still retain the benefits that come with being an EU citizen (and not simply hope that Mrs May 'does the decent thing' in such matters when negotiating our exit*) you have approximately 2 years and 3 months within which to apply to your chosen country and get everything sorted.

 

Similarly if you are an citizen of another EU member state at present, and want to guarantee to become a British citizen, you have 2 years 3 months in which to do it.

 

* Given her announcement that she wishes to withdraw from the single market, plus the rabid anti foreigner stuff that regularly emerges from the right wing press and a large chunk of the conservative party, combined with very clear statements from the EU themselves about not being able to Cherry pick what you want post Brexit (which the right wing press and the Conservative party arrogantly, and mistakenly, tell us is all talk) I wouldn't like to gamble on it.

 

In fact if I qualified for Irish or German citizenship then my application would already be in....... I simply don't trust this Government one bit, and equally would be quite happy for the EU to show her, and all the other little Englanders with delusions of grandeur just exactly how unimportant they are in the world.

[Horsetan]

....As the OP was referring to his Hungarian friend, and Hungary is a member of the EU then none of your comments apply to in particular case - all she needs to do is fill out a form and become a permanent resident - after which (assuming she has been here for 6 years IIRC) she can immediately apply to become a British citizen. No extra 'fees' (over and above the usual admin ones) or 'minimum income' stuff will apply to her.

I was referring to the post by Vanders, not the OP, which has already been amply dealt with.

[Robert]

What Phil-b259 said, is more or less exactly what the German authorities have told me.  As long as citizenship is applied for, and gained before the UK formally leaves the EU then dual citizenship should be granted - providing all the criteria are fulfilled (which vary widely from country to country).

 

Of course, in practice things are rather more complicated.

 

Having lived here for over 17 years, my application for citizenship is already in, and I hope that it will be granted.  I have indefinite permission to remain, but on the basis of being a citizen of another EU member state.  What may or may not happen when the UK is no longer a member of the EU (despite six months having passed) is still completely unclear.

[amwells]

It has changed since 2012, and it really depends on the category you're in. For your example of spouses of British citizens / settled persons, it's now five years for an incoming spouse, served in two periods of 30 months each (money), before you become entitled to apply for indefinite leave (more money). And don't forget the £200 Immigration Health Surcharge that you must pay for each year of stay (even more money). This also assumes that your British spouse also earns the minimum of £18,600 pa (or has savings of at least almost £70,000 if not); if you're bringing children in, then the minimum income goes up accordingly. And you definitely need to pass a two-stage English / Knowledge of Life in the UK test for the indefinite leave stage (yet more money). All of the expense incurred makes Solicitors' fees look cheap. If you're one of these inveterate travellers who likes spending time in other parts of the world, then you do risk losing your settled status if you are outside the UK for two years or more. You may have to make representations to prove that, despite your absence from the UK, your centre of interests remained here. Not easy.

3.5 years into this process and it is a bit of pain, and very expensive, but will be worth it in the end from my perspective!

[jjb1970]

The uncertainty is causing a lot of unnecessary anxiety to people caught in the middle of a political upheaval. Very sad.

[Mike Storey]

Just to be clear, France does allow dual-citizenship for UK passport holders, and one can apply after five years' residence, as long as other criteria are met (self-supporting, health cover, language and culture test and so on, although the requirements are much reduced for those over 60). I note that some people have faced problems, and I have heard of these too, in certain regions where the FN are strongest and xenophobia greatest. This tends to be tracked to local officials and not national policy, and is corrected upon application to a tribunal, or by using a Notaire's letter. The policy and process is very, very clear on the French government web site, but the timescales quoted are, shall we say, highly optimistic. Such has been the clamour to apply since June, I understand our Region is quoting 2 years to process. The chances of Marine le Pen winning the second round for the presidency vote this year are reducing as each day passes. The French media has become far less critical of the EU since the UK vote, unemployment is at last starting to reduce, house prices are now rising again and the prospect of winning jobs from the UK post a Brexit is causing much schadenfreude.

 

However, citizenship is not the whole answer. One can stay here by using the equivalent of Leave to Remain, called "Carte de Sejour" which is how everyone did it before the UK joined the EU. It is renewable every ten years. It does not require the same language or culture tests, but does require the economic tests and good references. I would suggest this is the simplest solution in the short term, but my local Marie expressed surprise that I should enquire at this stage, although they dug out the forms and guidance for me. They thought there would be no problem for us to stay, despite the health issues.

 

But the greatest problem, which only Mrs May and her coterie can resolve, is continuing health cover. Neither newly won citizenship nor the Carte de Sejour gives you French health cover unless you have been paying or continue to pay into their insurance system. If one works here and pays into the French state insurance system, cover become automatic (70% for most, with private health insurance to cover the rest, as for all but the poorest or elderly French citizens). But for the many of us who retired here, and still pay most of our taxes to the UK (on pensions etc), health cover is only provided via the UK S1 system, which is now more restrictive than ever. I am still not sure whether this cover is provided in France by Britain under a bi-lateral arrangement or via EU rules - different lawyers have given different opinions on other fora, and it is hard to find out via t'interweb. Either way, if the S1 provision is withdrawn, those of us with, or with dependents who have, chronic illnesses, will have to return to the UK without question. Whilst I could get private health cover at considerable cost, there is no way my wife could, due to her condition. There will be many tens of thousands of us like that, if not hundreds of thousands across the EU.

 

Whilst that would be a personal disaster for us (medically mainly - care for MS sufferers is outstandingly better in France as is the suitability of the climate), the wider implications for the NHS and Social Care in the UK are obvious. The vast majority of non-UK but EU nationals who might be forced to leave the UK (should such a situation arise) are, by any measure and despite the incredible nonsense peddled by the right-wing media and the Leave people, nowhere near as dependent on such services in the UK. Thus, whilst the exchange of population in such a situation might involve similar numbers, the medical, social services, mobility and housing needs of the returning Brits would be vastly greater overall. I can only hope that such logic will make a reciprocal deal much more likely.

 

Like Ian, we are waiting and watching to see what pans out.

[Chris M]

Until about ten years ago there were more UK citizens living in the EU than EU citizens in the UK. There are many retired Brits living in sunnier climes and also many Brits working all over the EU. I think there are more EU citizens working in the UK than there are unemployed people - there would certainly be serious problems filling jobs without the current EU workers. It is therefore in the interests of both the UK and the EU to ensure that no citizens are forced to move back to either the EU or the UK as a result of Brexit. Although politicians do sometimes screw things up I am pretty confident they will succeed in finding a way forward that allows people to stay where they are.

[admiles]

Not so as far as the UK is concerned - please read the Government webpage I linked to. While I cannot speak for other countries people should note that under EU law, member states cannot force a citizen of one member state to give up the nationality of another member state. This has led to the German Government changing its citizenship rules as dual citizenship was previously not permitted (and still isn't as regards non EU / EEA member states).

 

What happens when the UK ceases to be a member of the EU (and also the EEA by virtue of our withdrawal from the common market) nobody knows.

 

What would happen is the person holding dual German/British nationality would have to revoke their British nationality on Britain leaving the EU.

 

My mother is a German national who has lived here since 1967. She has never been interested in revoking her German citizenship and becoming a British national

but has made inquiries with the German embassy into dual nationality. It's only possible until Britain leaves the EU.

 

Incidentally, having lived here since 1967 and having taught in a primary school on a particularity rough council estate. The only abuse she's ever had in all that time for being

German has been since the referendum vote in June. She's also a volunteer for the National Trust and Suffolk Wildlife Trust doing educational work with children and she went into a Tesco branch still wearing her name badge with her German first name (English surname). On leaving she was punched in the face and told to "F*ck-off home you Nazi b*tch, we don't want your sort any more stealing our jobs".  She's 72 and speaks perfect English with almost no accent at all.

 

And this for me is the saddest thing about the whole Brexit saga. The division it's brought to the country and the way it has legitimized the voicing of some particularly nasty views and thoughts. Frankly this isn't the country I know and love any more. 

[chris p bacon]

 On leaving she was punched in the face and told to "F*ck-off home you Nazi b*tch, we don't want your sort any more stealing our jobs".  She's 72 and speaks perfect English with almost no accent at all.

Unless this has already been through the justice system you shouldn't post anything here. 

 

My understanding is that if someone did such an act it's a "Hate Crime" as it refers to her ancestry/nationality (something like that)

 

What was the outcome for the aggressor?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...And this for me is the saddest thing about the whole Brexit saga. The division it's brought to the country and the way it has legitimized the voicing of some particularly nasty views and thoughts. Frankly this isn't the country I know and love any more. 

 On the other hand, would you agree that those 'nasty views and thoughts' were present before the referendum? The benefit is that once out in the open and identifiable, it's possible to begin systesmatic corrective action; if there is the political will to do so. That's going to be one of the major tasks for any serious opposition party.

[phil-b259]

Unless this has already been through the justice system you shouldn't post anything here. 

 

My understanding is that if someone did such an act it's a "Hate Crime" as it refers to her ancestry/nationality (something like that)

 

What was the outcome for the aggressor?

 

It is a hate crime but if my mum got punched in the face by some racist 'Englishman' I would expect support and sympathy on here - not being told to keep quiet about it.

 

What the Admiles has in fact posted is no worse than what might appear in any news outlet.

 

Moreover there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such violence - it doesn't matter how much of a troubled childhood / per pressure / low educational attainment / whatever other excuse lawyers may try to trot out in the perpetrators defence, punching someone in the face over their nationality is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

 

People need to stop making excuses - thanks to the Brexit campaign, racist (and increasingly violent behaviour) has become far more acceptable than it used to be and its about time people realised just what a nasty piece if work most 'Brits' actually are once you scratch the surface.

[admiles]

Unless this has already been through the justice system you shouldn't post anything here. 

 

My understanding is that if someone did such an act it's a "Hate Crime" as it refers to her ancestry/nationality (something like that)

 

What was the outcome for the aggressor?

He casually trolled off and hasn't been found.  The police don't have much to go on, though actually asking Tesco for their CCTV images would be a start! No witnesses came forward either, despite it being at the doors of a busy store.

 

My mother also of the view it's easier to move on with life though I know it's shaken her up badly.

[admiles]

 On the other hand, would you agree that those 'nasty views and thoughts' were present before the referendum? The benefit is that once out in the open and identifiable, it's possible to begin systesmatic corrective action; if there is the political will to do so. That's going to be one of the major tasks for any serious opposition party.

Yes, of course those views have always been held by some. But as I said, they have come very much to the fore since the referendum.

[phil-b259]

He casually trolled off and hasn't been found.  The police don't have much to go on, though actually asking Tesco for their CCTV images would be a start! No witnesses came forward either, despite it being at the doors of a busy store.

 

My mother also of the view it's easier to move on with life though I know it's shaken her up badly.

 

I hope she manages to recover OK. Please reassure her that not every Brit is a raciest thug, or thinks such incidents should be swept under the carpet and I am grateful for all that she has contributed in the previous 40 years.

[Horsetan]

....its about time people realised just what a nasty piece of work most 'Brits' actually are once you scratch the surface.

 

....not every Brit is a racist thug,....

 

Hmmm... that was a bit of a volte-face there.

 

If you want a taste of real xenophobia, might I suggest you take a trip around non-white Brits. I think you may be surprised.

[alfsboy]

Dont worry .No negotiations will include the Isle of Wight so we can shove any problems onto them.

[Mike Storey]

It is a hate crime but if my mum got punched in the face by some racist 'Englishman' I would expect support and sympathy on here - not being told to keep quiet about it.

 

What the Admiles has in fact posted is no worse than what might appear in any news outlet.

 

Moreover there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such violence - it doesn't matter how much of a troubled childhood / per pressure / low educational attainment / whatever other excuse lawyers may try to trot out in the perpetrators defence, punching someone in the face over their nationality is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

 

People need to stop making excuses - thanks to the Brexit campaign, racist (and increasingly violent behaviour) has become far more acceptable than it used to be and its about time people realised just what a nasty piece if work most 'Brits' actually are.

 

"Most" Brits? I think that very harsh. This is a small, mostly poorly educated, obnoxious minority who blame anyone they can for their self-perceived lot, and were quite happy to adopt the Leave campaign to further their disgusting agenda. The danger is that this becomes mainstream, or at least passively tolerated. That danger has arrived and I see the current morons in power, let alone the Faragistas, doing little to quell it. I suspect in times past, that violent, bullying bigot would have been accosted during or immediately after his cowardly assault by numerous onlookers, but that in current times, fewer people are confident that their intervention would be backed up by their fellows, given the strange mood some parts of the country has slipped into. They may also have feared a Jo Cox moment.

 

The abhorrent reluctance and total failure by the even more moronic Home Secretary (presumably supported by the ex-Home Secretary), to support the Supreme Court in pursuance of the British Constitution, has further encouraged such mob rule. Are they so in awe of UKIP? When will this lot find some honour to salvage their tattered integrity? I am not being Political, but political as regards the actions, or inaction, of individuals. It matters not what party they are in, or what view you hold on the referendum result. I don't know if that can be discussed much more on this forum. I will probably get a formal warning anyway.

 

Much of this is resonant of 1920's/early 1930's Germany, and yet, unlike that period, we are a particularly successful economy but with an increasingly broken society. I hope history is recalled by enough people in this moment, but real history seems to be a blind spot for many in the UK. They prefer the made-up version, just like we do for our model trains. But at least we know we made it up, don't we?

[phil-b259]

Hmmm... that was a bit of a volte-face there.

 

 

 

I don't see how - if (and this is just using random numbers to illustrate the point) 70% of Brits display raciest tendencies and the other 30% don't then it is perfectly valid to simultaneously say that most are raciest - but not all are.

 

Simples

[phil-b259]

"Most" Brits? I think that very harsh.

 

As to the basis of my statements - as pleasant and 'respectable' as the majority of my work colleagues or fellow volunteers are on a day to day basis - I don't have to dig very far to discover some pretty unpleasant beliefs lying just below the surface......which UKIP / right wing Conservatives seem very adapt at exploiting. The Referendum campaign certainly was an eye opener as to peoples true feelings and their inability to accept they themselves are the problem by being unwilling to change the way they do things - and instead seek to blame foreigners / migrants for all society's ills.

[Mike Storey]

I don't see how - if (and this is just using random numbers to illustrate the point) 70% of Brits display raciest tendencies and the other 30% don't then it is perfectly valid to simultaneously say that most are raciest - but not all are.

 

Simples

 

As to the basis of my statements - as pleasant as the majority of my work colleagues or fellow volunteers are on a day to day basis - you don't have to dig very far to discover some pretty unpleasant beliefs lying just below the surface......

 

So much for their sex lives, but what about their attitudes to people of other races?  

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Yes, of course those views have always been held by some. But as I said, they have come very much to the fore since the referendum.

 Indeed. When the wall came down, and progressively the various single party states in Europe collapsed, I was surprised at the level of behavioural breakdown that occurred. The best explanations I heard focussed on the degree to which all outlets for opposition had been effectively suppressed within those states. It was conform or suffer for those trapped inside, and  so when the dam broke, all those frustrations were allowed free expression.

 

So I wasn't too surprised at the type of incidents of the sort you describe your mother suffering. Certain viewpoints have had the restraints on their expression lifted. Now, I am blessed with a distinctly non-anglo surname - one of my parents is an immigrant -  and have to say don't really feel alarmed about this. That's quite simply because anyone who doesn't realise that every single person on this island ultimately has an immigrant ancestor, really hasn't given the issue much thought at all. And that is correctable in general, by education; there is a solution, and better comprehension of reality is where it lies.

[chris p bacon]

It is a hate crime but if my mum got punched in the face by some racist 'Englishman' I would expect support and sympathy on here - not being told to keep quiet about it.

 

What the Admiles has in fact posted is no worse than what might appear in any news outlet.

 

Moreover there is NO JUSTIFICATION for such violence - it doesn't matter how much of a troubled childhood / per pressure / low educational attainment / whatever other excuse lawyers may try to trot out in the perpetrators defence, punching someone in the face over their nationality is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE.

 

People need to stop making excuses - thanks to the Brexit campaign, racist (and increasingly violent behaviour) has become far more acceptable than it used to be and its about time people realised just what a nasty piece if work most 'Brits' actually are once you scratch the surface.

Lets get something straight.

 

I did not tell Admiles to keep quiet I merely suggested that if this was an ongoing case then posting something on a public forum might not be the best thing to do. I would want to see anyone guilty of such a crime punished, not given a way out for whatever reason.

 

As for your last statement.  "Most Brits are racist"   I'd suggest you change the company you keep if that is your view of people in this country.

[Bernard Lamb]

What would happen is the person holding dual German/British nationality would have to revoke their British nationality on Britain leaving the EU.

 

My mother is a German national who has lived here since 1967. She has never been interested in revoking her German citizenship and becoming a British national

but has made inquiries with the German embassy into dual nationality. It's only possible until Britain leaves the EU.

 

 

That is where the complications arise. I mentioned in a previous post about date and place.

There are so many anomalies that I have good reason to believe that things will change once we actually get down to the detail.

Put it this way. I have no reason to think that our friends on the mainland will let us down. I trust them rather more than I trust Mrs May.

Bernard