Residency Post-Brexit

[phil-b259]

Lets get something straight.

 

I did not tell Admiles to keep quiet I merely suggested that if this was an ongoing case then posting something on a public forum might not be the best thing to do. I would want to see anyone guilty of such a crime punished, not given a way out for whatever reason.

 

As for your last statement.  "Most Brits are racist"   I'd suggest you change the company you keep if that is your view of people in this country.

 

I totally accept that point with regard to ongoing criminal cases (or official incident inquiries by the likes of the RAIB) - but Admiles original post made no mention of such a thing, and as I said was no different to say, a BBC news article on the event. As such I felt your comments on not discussing the events in public (particularly being the first thing you said) were premature.

 

Put it like this - imagine if it was your mum that got punched in the face - what would you appreciate more as peoples first reaction? expressions of sympathy or a warning about discussing it in public?

 

You may not have intended it to come across in such a manor, but my reading of your post placed too much emphasis on legal stuff and not enough on human compassion.

 

As to the company I keep - please note what I actually said. As with most people I don't have much choice over those who constitute my work colleagues or other volunteers that I may spend my time with, (as opposed to true close friends) and I am not going to stop what I enjoy doing even if that does mean I occasionally get to hear unpleasant views. It is however a fact that in the run up to and after the EU referendum I have heard some pretty horrible things said by people who I previously would have thought to be above such things and rather than pretending such things don't happen it would be better if people woke up to the truth that the UK is not the overwhelmingly nice place people like to think it is.

[chris p bacon]

I totally accept that point with regard to ongoing criminal cases (or official incident inquiries by the likes of the RAIB) - but Admiles original post made no mention of such a thing, and as I said was no different to say, a BBC news article on the event. As I felt your comments on not discussing the events in public (particularly being the first thing you said) were premature.

 

Put it like this - imagine if it was your mum that got punched in the face - what would you appreciate more as peoples first reaction? expressions of sympathy or a warning about discussing it in public?

 

You may not have intended it to come across in such a manor, but my reading of your post placed too much emphasis on legal stuff and not enough on human compassion.

 

As to the company I keep - please note what I actually said. As with most people I don't have much choice over those who constitute my work colleagues or other volunteers that I may spend my time with, (as opposed to true close friends) and I am not going to stop what I enjoy doing even if that does mean I occasionally get to hear unpleasant views. It is however a fact that in the run up to and after the EU referendum I have heard some pretty horrible things said by people who I previously would have thought to be above such things and rather than pretending such things don't happen it would be better if people woke up to the truth that the UK is not the overwhelmingly nice place people like to think it is.

Thanks,  As it was post referendum It had to be in the last 6 months so I presumed it could be an active case, I'd be cheesed off if someone got away with such behaviour so just thought it should be noted.

 

Sympathy.....just ask Lady Bacon, she reckons I'm the most unsympathetic person ever.....she could be right.

 

In all honesty I haven't heard mutterings about "Johnny foreigner" since the ref, and I work in construction. In fact most are understanding of the plight of such places as Spain & Greece where youth unemployment is high, they don't have animosity to foreign workers even though it's meant many having their pay cut over the last few years. They don't have an issue with the people as you can't blame someone for wanting a better life, it's those that exploit them that are the issue.

. The general consensus of those I work with is that they liken the EU and negotiations to their neighbours.  they like them but don't want to live in the same house as them all the time.

 

I've certainly met some abusive and racist people in my time, here, Kenya, USA, Japan, and many parts of Europe, I'm sure there's more of them but I haven't been their countries yet.

[OnTheBranchline]

So wait, the government is okay with a foreigner owning newspapers in the UK BUT it's not okay for a foreign worker to clean toilets in a washroom in Slough? Or a foreign university student studying at Oxford?

[chris p bacon]

So wait, the government is okay with a foreigner owning newspapers in the UK BUT it's not okay for a foreign worker to clean toilets in a washroom in Slough? Or a foreign university student studying at Oxford?

 For the first part of your statement,  it's convenient to ignore the many companies overseas that UK companies own and operate.  Although most (if not all) sales of companies are subject to due diligence and compliance with local legislation.

 

And for the second part, which toilet cleaner or student? or is it just hypothetical ?

[Mike Storey]

 For the first part of your statement,  it's convenient to ignore the many companies overseas that UK companies own and operate.  Although most (if not all) sales of companies are subject to due diligence and compliance with local legislation.

 

And for the second part, which toilet cleaner or student? or is it just hypothetical ?

 

It is also perhaps somewhat convenient to ignore the point being made?

[chris p bacon]

It is also perhaps somewhat convenient to ignore the point being made?

The only point was the one about "Foreigners owning UK companies"

 

I didn't see one about a toilet cleaner in Slough or a Student in Oxford ?   If they were legally entitled to be here and contributed in some way to society what point is there?

[Mike Storey]

The only point was the one about "Foreigners owning UK companies"

 

I didn't see one about a toilet cleaner in Slough or a Student in Oxford ?   If they were legally entitled to be here and contributed in some way to society what point is there?

 

Quite. The latter may not be soon, but the former will not appear to have a problem.

[chris p bacon]

Aaaaah I see.

 

I don't get the who owns what argument, my Father worked for a UK company from 1946-1978 (then a subsidiary till 1994)  His whole working life was in other countries as the "Foreigner " but we don't think about that. 

[Mike Storey]

Aaaaah I see.

 

I don't get the who owns what argument, my Father worked for a UK company from 1946-1978 (then a subsidiary till 1994)  His whole working life was in other countries as the "Foreigner " but we don't think about that. 

 

Those were the days!

[phil-b259]

 For the first part of your statement,  it's convenient to ignore the many companies overseas that UK companies own and operate.  Although most (if not all) sales of companies are subject to due diligence and compliance with local legislation.

 

 

To an extent though he as a point. If you actually look into the details you will find most 'UK' companies are nothing of the sort - either they have simply moved their key functions here for tax reasons or they are part of a bigger organisation which has taken them over.

 

If you want to see true 'national' companies - you need to look to the likes of France, Germany, Norway, etc where a combination of local and national Government holding significant shares in ostensibly 'private' concerns means said business are far more tied to their homeland than in the UK - which (particularly inside the Treasuary) continues to believe that making a quick buck in the city is preferable to long term stability or the ability to exercise pressure to ensure any benefits / investment profits the home country.

[Bernard Lamb]

Aaaaah I see.

 

I don't get the who owns what argument, my Father worked for a UK company from 1946-1978 (then a subsidiary till 1994)  His whole working life was in other countries as the "Foreigner " but we don't think about that. 

A friend of mine spent most of his working life in India. When he retired he and his wife found that they had little reason to return to the UK. They went to New Zealand to see out their days.

The father of an old school friend worked in Malaysia so after living their for a while after leaving college my friend settled in Australia.

It gives me a good excuse to visit for a holiday.

Back on topic. I have just spent this evening going through various documents sorting out every address where SWMBO and myself have lived, including the exact dates, since we were married and her full life history from before then. Fortunately we have unearthed the key document, her DDR passport. 

Bernard

[Horsetan]

...her DDR passport.

 

History in your hand.

[jjb1970]

I think controlled immigration is fair enough and I have no issue with that. In fact in a sense I do think that if Brexit means that foreign nationals will apply to come here and be subject to common entry criteria rather than the current system which makes it much more difficult for non-EU nationals to come here then it I won't complain. As with most things it is a nuanced debate. For all that, there is a separate issue that a lot of people are living here perfectly legally based on existing free movement rules and who now face real anxiety. The government could easily just say that they will retain their right to live and work here. In fairness, for all I'm a staunch remainer and am no lover of our government, I will say that the attitude of the EU is nothing to applaud on this question. The EU could easily offer an assurance to reciprocate any UK offer on this matter rather than just repeating the mantra that they won't talk about anything until Article 50 is triggered.

[Junctionmad]

I think controlled immigration is fair enough and I have no issue with that. In fact in a sense I do think that if Brexit means that foreign nationals will apply to come here and be subject to common entry criteria rather than the current system which makes it much more difficult for non-EU nationals to come here then it I won't complain. As with most things it is a nuanced debate. For all that, there is a separate issue that a lot of people are living here perfectly legally based on existing free movement rules and who now face real anxiety. The government could easily just say that they will retain their right to live and work here. In fairness, for all I'm a staunch remainer and am no lover of our government, I will say that the attitude of the EU is nothing to applaud on this question. The EU could easily offer an assurance to reciprocate any UK offer on this matter rather than just repeating the mantra that they won't talk about anything until Article 50 is triggered.

I think you must accept that all current pronouncements on both sides are entirely " bombast", an attempt to establish negotiating positions and opening gambits if you will.  The UK must feign indifference to things it may actually want ( you dont buy a 2nd hand car by running up and saying you love it and must have it , do you ) . The EU must proclaim , it cant " negotiate " until after A50 etc 

 

Ind the end , and always being mindful that upsets do happen, sane heads will hopefully prevail and workable solutions will be trashed out.  I think its a fair fact to assume that all existing residencies will be grandfathered in , and only new arrivals will be subject to whatever rules are agreed.

 

I think we'll hear lots of " wish lists" demands , counter proposals, most if not all , for domestic public consumption wherever.

 

Thats my view that a degree of sanity will prevail. I could be wrong of course . 

 

it should be noted that Article 50 ( written by an Englishman , as is so much of EU legislation ) , in effects prevents the EU from formally entering any negotiations under the article is triggered . Article 50 was constructed in a way to severely hamstring the entity leaving the EU, its architect , didnt think it would ever be used.

 

I know people in the bureaucracies involved and there is significant talking going on to establish where the issues lie and whats really possible etc.  None of this process ( and I hope little of it does ) , will be reported in public.  

[Horsetan]

.... a lot of people are living here perfectly legally based on existing free movement rules and who now face real anxiety. ....

 

Some are more legal than others....

[Bernard Lamb]

How times have changed.

While going through all the papers I found the citizenship certificate for SWMBO. Arrived in the UK 11 July.

Certificated issued 19 August. By the time we got round to actually sending in the forms that would be less than three weeks to process.

Cost? All done with the help of a contact in the Home Office and the only fee was to swear an oath of allegiance at the local solicitors.

How long would it take these days and at what cost?

The other odd bit that came to light. She was allowed to bring 10DM.

Bernard

[hayfield]

People need to stop making excuses - thanks to the Brexit campaign, racist (and increasingly violent behaviour) has become far more acceptable than it used to be and its about time people realised just what a nasty piece if work most 'Brits' actually are once you scratch the surface.

 

 

I don't think you can blame mindless violence JUST on the Brexit campaign. What happened to this lady is totally unacceptable what ever way one voted. Sadly the Brexit campaign attracted the small number of racists to it, but they were always there. Exactly the same as the remainers are not all anarchists but their remain group attracted them to it. Look at the violence in America by those dressed in black clothes and masks, not every Clinton supporter is an anarchist, very few would support their actions.

 

The vast majority of the Brexit voters were totally fed up with EU bureaucracy, meddling in our legal system and uncontrolled migration. That is not saying they are either against migration or want migrants to leave, lets face it most are descended from Europeans or races further afield, even the Celts must have descended from Africa.

 

The remainers seem now to be taking some form or moral high ground and making wild claims and taring everyone with the same brush, without realising there was massive support from migrants outside the EU for Brexit, who rightly believe their relations have been discriminated against in favour of EU citizens. Look at how the EU has treated the Greeks and to some extent the Spanish & Portuguese, just to protect large German banks. Would not accept a legal vote in Ireland, and now made a fortress Europe on its Eastern borders. Look at how the French treated the Migrants in Calais!! That would never happen in the UK. I have an African friend who is a Dutch citizen, no one would employ him in Holland, he and his family happily work here. The government and opposition realise the people want out of the EU, but not migrants out of GB. They must however protect our citizens living in the EU.

 

We should all stand together for unacceptable behaviour from both sides 

[hayfield]

So wait, the government is okay with a foreigner owning newspapers in the UK BUT it's not okay for a foreign worker to clean toilets in a washroom in Slough? Or a foreign university student studying at Oxford?

 

 

Quite a lot of remainers are blaming previous UK governments for selling all our companies and nationalised industries to foreign owned companies,

 

I have only seen instances where the governments are closing down bogus learning establishments, our universities welcome the contribution genuine foreign students make to both academia and finance,

 

There is a whole debate to be had about the effect of low skilled migrants has had with the fabric of our society, some reports suggest it benefits the rich to the detriment of the poor. Also due to the decrease in the value of the £ it is adversely affecting the temporary migrants who send money home.

 

What about foreign investment into property ? and the effects it is having both on home buyers and those renting? 

 

At least now we can have an adult conversation about these issues and come to our own conclusion without the EU meddling 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...We should all stand together for unacceptable behaviour from both sides 

 That's bound to happen, no need for any public effort.

[Mike Storey]

I don't think you can blame mindless violence JUST on the Brexit campaign. What happened to this lady is totally unacceptable what ever way one voted. Sadly the Brexit campaign attracted the small number of racists to it, but they were always there. Exactly the same as the remainers are not all anarchists but their remain group attracted them to it. Look at the violence in America by those dressed in black clothes and masks, not every Clinton supporter is an anarchist, very few would support their actions.

 

The vast majority of the Brexit voters were totally fed up with EU bureaucracy, meddling in our legal system and uncontrolled migration. That is not saying they are either against migration or want migrants to leave, lets face it most are descended from Europeans or races further afield, even the Celts must have descended from Africa.

 

The remainers seem now to be taking some form or moral high ground and making wild claims and taring everyone with the same brush, without realising there was massive support from migrants outside the EU for Brexit, who rightly believe their relations have been discriminated against in favour of EU citizens. Look at how the EU has treated the Greeks and to some extent the Spanish & Portuguese, just to protect large German banks. Would not accept a legal vote in Ireland, and now made a fortress Europe on its Eastern borders. Look at how the French treated the Migrants in Calais!! That would never happen in the UK. I have an African friend who is a Dutch citizen, no one would employ him in Holland, he and his family happily work here. The government and opposition realise the people want out of the EU, but not migrants out of GB. They must however protect our citizens living in the EU.

 

We should all stand together for unacceptable behaviour from both sides 

 

I agree totally with your sentiments here, but it is a great shame you tarnish it with what is, frankly, pure propaganda worthy of Trump (and Farage), much of which has been disproved time and again.

 

Just take Greece, the favourite bete noire. More than half the money it owes is to the IMF, not the ECB. The UK is a large creditor via the IMF, but not, as so often misreported, via the ECB. I did not see any UK govt member suggesting we should forgive or reduce that debt ourselves. Blame the EU often enough and the facts get lost. As soon as there was any suggestion that the UK should advocate a more lenient position, a magical 180 degree argument would come out, saying we should not prop up a failed country etc etc.

 

Take immigration from outside the EU, which despite the "points system" introduced from 2012, is still as high as that from the EU and was consistently higher up until a few years ago. It seems Australia, for one, is demanding easier immigration to the UK as the price for a trade deal, and India has mentioned the same. Trump is about to go "America First" but we will get the greatest deal ever from him, and even have far more UK folk working there? Just how contradictory can this whole mess get?

 

As for legal and bureaucratic interference by the EU, after the banana farce, no-one in the Leave camp could actually name any real issues, except of course immigration. They actually tried to argue that Human Rights are a "bad thing", as though we did not invent them in the first place, with the ECHR in the 1950's (nothing to do with the EU). Bureaucracy will inevitably increase manifoldly if, as Mrs May seems determined, we leave the single market, a key point of which is the lack of customs checks and common standards acceptance.

 

Common sense is a phrase much over-used as it means completely different things to different people. It is "common sense" that the UK should be preserved, albeit dominated by England. But apparently it is also "common sense" that the EU should be split up, as no one country should dominate another. Well, which is it?

 

That is why I fear that "common sense" and "logic" may not prevail for EU residents, or for UK citizens (actually "subjects") residing in the EU. I see scant evidence to date, and "posturing" (by both sides) often leads to intransigent, entrenched positions, rather than a negotiation by grown-ups. Please, please send us some grown-ups.....

[SM42]

This is a current source of friction here at SM42 Towers. I can see potential  problems at the UK border. Mrs SM42 doesn't and is quite rightly proud of her EU nationality of birth

 

We have had a look at the 85 page form to apply for a residency (Mrs SM42 having lived and worked in the UK for over 10 years now and although has a current right to reside under EU law, this could all change)  and though we have not fully read all the notes, it seems we need to have bank statements and pay slips spread across the last 5 years (who keeps those for five years? Mrs SM42 doesn't, I don't) and also have details of all time outside the UK in that period.  Can everyone here say when they went abroad over the last five years in more detail than a month and year.? We can't.

 

Going the other way, I don't think my language is up to the job (even after 8 years of trying to learn it, probably due to lack of practice ) and I am only resident for a few weeks a year. Neither do I have any closet Irish grandparents unfortunately

 

We have also quite  recently seen the experience of a recently married friend who spent 5 months trying to get an express application for his non EU wife to be able to stay intially  in the UK for 2yrs 6 mnths. ( and then  they will have to go through the process again I believe)  They had kept everthing. She was living and working in the UK before they married. They had professional help and it still took several months instead of the promised weeks. They think their application was too good to be true.  At one point she was even told to go to an embassy in another country for interview, despite the fact that the local British Embassy had her passport. 

 

We are therefore understandably concerned and probably need to find some help but finding a reputable source of help isn't  easy.

 

We also have many friends from the EU who live, work and pay  mortgages in the UK and they are just as concerned as they have invested so much in both time and money into the UK and now this all seems to be balancing on a knife edge.

 

Unfortunately I don't trust anyone involved in the negotiating process enough to think this will all be alright in the end and I see a rocky road ahead for all in similar situations.

 

Good luck to everyone who is facing a similar dilemma.

 

Andy

[tomparryharry]

Never mind all this Brexit malarkey, what about those poor souls on the Isle of Wight?

 

Only joking, only joking..........

 

Ian

[Arthur]

Just take Greece, the favourite bete noire. More than half the money it owes is to the IMF, not the ECB.

 

 

And why were the IMF so forthcoming with money for the Greeks? Because they had the strength of the Euro behind them and these institutions believed that Brussels would act like Daddy and honour the debt whatever.

 

 

The Euro.

Not one single country, Germany included, met the pre-determined, strict fiscal rules for entry into the Euro. Not one. Yet the political desire to implement the scheme overrode economic sense, dragging into it counties which should NEVER have been allowed in. Countries for which this was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

In what deluded Euro bubble did anybody believe that, having been handed the 'EURO Gold Amex', the Greeks, and other Southern European states, were suddenly going to run their economies like the Germans?

 

It was completely and utterly irresponsible.

 

 

If you lend to a borrower with a record of total financial irresponsibility then YOU bear the blame if they continue to act as they always have.

 

And so, having messed up big time, when the inevitable happened and it went t*ts up how did the EU respond? Reach out to help put things right? Ease the path of those victims of its own political hubris?

 

No.

 

They nuked the Greek economy back to the Stone Age and wrecked the future of an entire generation of the Greek people.

[SM42]

Never mind all this Brexit malarkey, what about those poor souls on the Isle of Wight?

 

Only joking, only joking..........

 

Ian

 

 

Aren't they a bit like Greenland, Sort of out or is it in? Does anyone know?

 

Andy

[Mike Storey]

And why were the IMF so forthcoming with money for the Greeks? Because they had the strength of the Euro behind them and these institutions believed that Brussels would act like Daddy and honour the debt whatever.

 

 

The Euro.

Not one single country, Germany included, met the pre-determined, strict fiscal rules for entry into the Euro. Not one. Yet the political desire to implement the scheme overrode economic sense, dragging into it counties which should NEVER have been allowed in. Countries for which this was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

In what deluded Euro bubble did anybody believe that, having been handed the 'EURO Gold Amex', the Greeks, and other Southern European states, were suddenly going to run their economies like the Germans?

 

It was completely and utterly irresponsible.

 

 

If you lend to a borrower with a record of total financial irresponsibility then YOU bear the blame if they continue to act as they always have.

 

And so, having messed up big time, when the inevitable happened and it went t*ts up how did the EU respond? Reach out to help put things right? Ease the path of those victims of its own political hubris?

 

No.

 

They nuked the Greek economy back to the Stone Age and wrecked the future of an entire generation of the Greek people.

 

Except that it wasn't the EU, it was the ECB's decision - a rather different entity. What you, and many others always leave out, are the huge continuing subsidies that Greece continued to receive meanwhile, plus the conditions fulfilment that enabled the extended payment regime now being followed. The Greeks had the option of leaving the euro and also had the option of leaving the EU. Despite extreme governments of both hues, they chose not to, as the alternatives would have been far, far worse. Nuked the economy? That had already been done by the corruption and absurdly generous working and retirement regimes they had voted for themselves, but suffice to say it is growing again now, and employment is rising, albeit from a much lower base (as they are Portugal, Spain and Eire, also cited as failures of the euro). It bears much comparison with the days of Thatcher, but more extreme.

 

The euro as a concept was not particularly political (Eire kept the British pound for many years after independence, and Scotland would like to keep it if they ever left the UK, and even communist Cuba used the US dollar for externally for decades, for example) - it was deemed necessary to ensure a single market would eventually work much more efficiently across a common playing field. It has stumbled, along with the world's economy, but it does not negate the purpose. If it was so bad, why is the pound now worth 15% less against it than before June? You will answer that currencies go up and down all the time. Precisely.