West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[Module00]

a real pleasure to read this thread. 😃👌

[03060]

Please forgive me for this Rob but as I work my way through Stuart McKay's Flickr Galleries (and the new photographer leads I find) I came across this 1983 photo which I think 'defines' why I love the WHL so much and why I enjoy your great work and this thread which brightens my day whenever I read it.

 

Photo by Pete Robins, 12/7/1983 .... a Tuesday (apparently !)

 

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited October 4, 2023 by 03060
Presentation adjustment.

[BoD]

Only very subtle weathering needed there.

Sometimes just as hard to do as the more dilapidated look mentioned earlier.

[young37215]

46 minutes ago, BoD said:

Only very subtle weathering needed there.

Sometimes just as hard to do as the more dilapidated look mentioned earlier.

 

Indeed, I have several 'as new' locos that I want to lightly weather so that they look similar to 37081 above but I am not totally confident in my ability to do so. I mentioned above an article in September's Hornby Magazine where the techniques used look about right, I need to bite the bullet and try them out on one of my pristine locos.   

 

[andi4x4]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

Indeed, I have several 'as new' locos that I want to lightly weather so that they look similar to 37081 above but I am not totally confident in my ability to do so. I mentioned above an article in September's Hornby Magazine where the techniques used look about right, I need to bite the bullet and try them out on one of my pristine locos.   

 

 

You could always pick up some cheap bodies on eBay to use as testbeds rather ending up with a loco you are not happy with ......

 

[young37215]

On 04/10/2023 at 11:55, andi4x4 said:

 

You could always pick up some cheap bodies on eBay to use as testbeds rather ending up with a loco you are not happy with ......

 

 

 

Thanks for the thought, as it happens I have a couple of spare class 37 bodies that I could use if practice was required. Perhaps a little arrogantly but I don't feel the need to practice, rather I need to get back into the routine of modelling. Since our return from holiday I have managed to spend more time outside making the most of the dry, warm weather. Judging by the frost on my neighbours roof Saturday morning, Autumn appears to be setting in. 

 

I travelled to GETS yesterday and was impressed by several of the layouts. WIth large crowds it was not easy to watch them operating and the trade support was modest. I managed to pick up a few bits and pieces but failed to get all of the requirements on my list. I like the Primo Models range of trees and will be reasearching pictures to see where I might add some of their impressive Larch and Spruce. My tree identification skills are in management speak 'a learning opportunity' but I want to update the 3 trees in the top right front of the first picture and growing out of 37 roof in the second picture below. What are they?  

 

 

 

 

[BoD]

29 minutes ago, young37215 said:

What are they? 

Green.

 

That sums up my knowledge, I’m afraid.  I’m hoping that someone can ID them for you too.

[mallaig1983]

I thought I saw you at GETS yesterday Rob. I was enjoying Burntisland and had managed to shuffle to the front with my Dad. I was sure you passed behind with a couple of friends. It was over to quickly to say ‘hello’ but I did keep an eye out for you afterwards.

 

An enjoyable show and some very nice layouts. Gets the winter modelling vibe going.

 

Andy

 

 

[03060]

5 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

 

Thanks for the thought, as it happens I have a couple of spare class 37 bodies that I could use if practice was required. Perhaps a little arrogantly but I don't feel the need to practice, rather I need to get back into the routine of modelling. Since our return from holiday I have managed to spend more time outside making the most of the dry, warm weather. Judging by the frost on my neighbours roof Saturday morning, Autumn appears to be setting in. 

 

I travelled to GETS yesterday and was impressed by several of the layouts. WIth large crowds it was not easy to watch them operating and the trade support was modest. I managed to pick up a few bits and pieces but failed to get all of the requirements on my list. I like the Primo Models range of trees and will be reasearching pictures to see where I might add some of their impressive Larch and Spruce. My tree identification skills are in management speak 'a learning opportunity' but I want to update the 3 trees in the top right front of the first picture and growing out of 37 roof in the second picture below. What are they?  

 

 

 

 

 

Morning Rob,

 

Possibly Douglas Fir trees, but from the images I'm seeing in a quick search they seem to vary quite a bit, some with foliage only starting halfway up the trunk and others more like the Crianlarich examples with a much fuller foliage distribution. Western Hemlock is another possible but again quite a lot of variation in these also, certainly pines of some sort.

 

I have several books on trees but the one I want is AWOL at the moment, possibly up in the loft, I'll have a look when the rest of the household surface.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited October 16, 2023 by 03060
Correction.

[Moonter]

4 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

 

 I like the Primo Models range of trees and will be reasearching pictures to see where I might add some of their impressive Larch and Spruce. My tree identification skills are in management speak 'a learning opportunity' but I want to update the 3 trees in the top right front of the first picture and growing out of 37 roof in the second picture below. What are they?  

 

 

 

 

Google Lens suggested these. I don't think they're exactly right, but they are pretty close.

 

https://www.fantasywelt.de/Modelltannen-18-24-cm-3-Stk_1

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

I think they are Spruce. Douglas Fir is a possibility but is fairly rare in Scotland - it likes milder weather. The other common tree is Larch, but that is deciduous and its needles would be a lovely light emerald green in the May picture. Trees will normally have foliage and branches all the way down unless they have been grown close together for forestry purposes. I’m this case the lower branches don’t have enough light and drop off. This is deliberate as branches create knots in the timber. 
 

Primo do some lovely Spruce trees. I’d put those at c.50feet tall, so you would need his 20cm trees which would look very impressive…at a cost!

 

I was also at GETS yesterday and admiring his Birch trees. I was going to buy some for Glenfinnan but he’d sold out of the 14cm ones which I need to represent a 20’ tree in O gauge.

 

I was very impressed by Tulloch Bridge at GETS. It’s too late an era for us but the presentation was superb.

 

Andy

 

 

[37Oban]

Have a look at the Forestry and Land Scotland site.  It lists the commonest trees, both conifer and deciduous, and their uses.  Scots Pine is the native species, and Holly often used to grow near it in the days of the great Caledonian forest although it's a lor rarer now, usually found where deer and sheep can't get at it.    Oak, Rowan and Birch are also common species, even the west.  So consider using a mix of trees, not just conifers.  I remember there being considerable areas of oak and birch near the West Highland Line when I travelled between Oban and Glasgow on a regular basis in the 80's.

 

Roja

 

 

[young37215]

19 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Primo do some lovely Spruce trees. I’d put those at c.50feet tall, so you would need his 20cm trees which would look very impressive…at a cost!

 

 

For such a landmark group of trees I would take the pain of the cost just to create the right image above Crianlarich station and yard. No one has defintively identified the tress as yet, I am wondering if they are conifers like Leylandi planted by the house owner as a barrier between their garden and the railway? Given how little traffic there was I cannot see it being noisy area but some people are keen to mark their boundaries. Given the second picture below they are not Leylandi which would be much larger by now but still possibly a conifer.

 

 

40 years later and in 2021 only 1 tree appears to remain. It has not grown much taller but still looks like a conifer to me.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

30 minutes ago, young37215 said:

 

For such a landmark group of trees I would take the pain of the cost just to create the right image above Crianlarich station and yard. No one has defintively identified the tress as yet, I am wondering if they are conifers like Leylandi planted by the house owner as a barrier between their garden and the railway? Given how little traffic there was I cannot see it being noisy area but some people are keen to mark their boundaries. Given the second picture below they are not Leylandi which would be much larger by now but still possibly a conifer.

 

 

40 years later and in 2021 only 1 tree appears to remain. It has not grown much taller but still looks like a conifer to me.

 

 

Rob,

 

That last picture definitively rules out Larch as it would have dropped its needles in winter. So I’m 95% sure that it’s Spruce, probably Sitka Spruce which is what is growing in that large forest to the left of the top picture. They may well have self seeded from the forest. Spruce grows quickly - that why us foresters like it! Each whorl of branches represents one year’s growth, so I would put the tree in your second picture at 15-20 years old allowing for some growth at the bottom that we can’t see. So the three in your first picture were probably chopped down and this one has grown up since.

 

Here are some that I planted in my woodland in 2008, so a little younger than your example, but you can see how quickly they grow.

 

 

The Primo Spruce is a very good match

 

https://primomodels.co.uk/product/spruce-tree-model-20-22-cm

 

Don’t go for the Forest Spruce as this reflects trees grown closely together which will loose their lower branches as I explained in my earlier post.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[young37215]

11 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Rob,

 

That last picture definitively rules out Larch as it would have dropped its needles in winter. So I’m 95% sure that it’s Spruce, probably Sitka Spruce which is what is growing in that large forest to the left of the top picture. They may well have self seeded from the forest. Spruce grows quickly - that why us foresters like it! Each whorl of branches represents one year’s growth, so I would put the tree in your second picture at 15-20 years old allowing for some growth at the bottom that we can’t see. So the three in your first picture were probably chopped down and this one has grown up since.

 

Here are some that I planted in my woodland in 2008, so a little younger than your example, but you can see how quickly they grow.

 

 

The Primo Spruce is a very good match

 

https://primomodels.co.uk/product/spruce-tree-model-20-22-cm

 

Don’t go for the Forest Spruce as this reflects trees grown closely together which will loose their lower branches as I explained in my earlier post.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Most helpful; thanks Andy. I am impressed by your woodlands, somehwere for Glenfinnan to run through I guess?

 

I have ordered some of the 20 - 22 cm Spruce from Primo which will replace the existing and rather modest existing trees at Crianlarich. The whole area above the station could do with beefing up, hopefully the Primo Spruce will be the start of this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

21 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

So I’m 95% sure that it’s Spruce, probably Sitka Spruce which is what is growing in that large forest to the left of the top picture.

I agree it’s a spruce. Really need a piggybank for those primo trees to save up and buy in large batches 😁

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

I agree it’s a spruce. Really need a piggybank for those primo trees to save up and buy in large batches 😁

A Primo forest would look really impressive, but might dent the loco budget for an awful long time!

[Vecchio]

The Primo stuff is very nice, if you have a few outstanding trees Primo (or one of the other top tree manufacturers) it is. In case you need more or a kind of woodland I normally use the nice (and expensive ones) in the front and cheaper stuff (like bottle brush trees from Faller)  in the back. The bottle brush types need to be treated a bit (take out some twigs) as they are too regular in normal appearance.  

[young37215]

12 hours ago, Vecchio said:

The Primo stuff is very nice, if you have a few outstanding trees Primo (or one of the other top tree manufacturers) it is. In case you need more or a kind of woodland I normally use the nice (and expensive ones) in the front and cheaper stuff (like bottle brush trees from Faller)  in the back. The bottle brush types need to be treated a bit (take out some twigs) as they are too regular in normal appearance.  

 

Fortunately I only require 3 trees to represent those that were evident at Crianlarich during my time period. Even so at £14 per tree they are not cheap. 

 

Elsewhere I have been captivated by the SDEG's steam heat 37 book which, amongst many things, highlights the various unique features of individual locos. One of which is 37264 where I already knew my version was incorrect for the early 1980's, just prior to its late 1983 visit to Crewe works from which it emerged as the first official class 37 in large logo. I bought my loco 10 years or so ago as 37251 which I renumbered and added terrier logos prior to it being weathered by TMC. Back then I was blissfully ignorant of Flickr with its range of reference pictures and so missed several of the more subtle detail points. The SDEG book prompted me to make a start on the updates required to make 264 more prototypical. I started to remove some of the weathering in an effort to create a cleaner, weather beaten loco using enamel thinners and numerous cotton buds. The old Western Region headboard clips were removed with the intention of using them on 37175 but 1 of the 4 managed to make a succesful bid for freedom and now hides somewhere on the carpet!. From a Heljan detailing pack I added the nameboard bracket above the headcode, I still want  to remove more of the weathering but the revised loco is nearing completion and a return to service.   

 

 

 

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

Rob,

 

I like the mods on ‘264, I did similar to my Heljan version.

 

 

One thing I’m never sure about though, is the roof differences which you talk about between different batches. Could you show a picture of the different layouts?

 

Thanks

 

Andy

[03060]

Whilst on the subject of reference books, one that I had missed (I hope) when it was released was the 'new' Crecy/OPC Speedlink vol.1 (Opens and Vans) wagon book by David Larkin.

 

This, I saw in a magazine advert (Booklaw £25 + p+p) and has now been delivered; a quick glance through (as I'm on nights again) reveals many good quality photos (NB all in B&W) of wagons that were found on WHL freight or departmental trains in the 80s and whilst I haven't yet noted any 'specific' photos taken on the WHL it will be a useful reference to aid to some whilst modelling these .... including the OAA wagons that are on Rob's radar at the moment.

 

(I've used the term "I hope" in my first line of this post as it wouldn't surprise me that if when I dig my way through the mess that is my supposed 'modelling room' I find that I've already bought this book .... it wouldn't be the first time !!)

 

Regards,

Ian.

[young37215]

On 19/10/2023 at 08:50, thegreenhowards said:

One thing I’m never sure about though, is the roof differences which you talk about between different batches. Could you show a picture of the different layouts?

 

 

For many years I was blissfully ignorant of class 37 roof and cantrail differences, then I learnt about them and started trying to replicate them. The following is a 'cut and paste' explanantion from an article I read and copied a while ago: 'D6700 - D6798 as built had riveted roofs, all vertical strips that run from one side of the roof to the other. These are double riveted on the first 42 locos, the next 56 had single riveted strips and the remaining split headcode and all centre headcode locos had welded (smooth) roofs'.

 

The standard Bachmann riveted roof shown in the first picture looks single riveted. This loco was originally 37049 and which I renumbered to 37108, should be welded hence why I plan to file down the 3 central rows of rivets. The rivets at each end will have to stay which I am relaxed about which is just as well because I cannot see a practical way of changing these to the welded profile.

 

 

Bachmann welded roof

 

 

Cantrail grilles with extra dividing/strengthening bars were fitted to all RSH built 37's (D6769-D6795 D6879-D6898) and Vulcan built D6700 - D6705 but with a groove round as they were removable. Bachmann have not done many RSH locos, I used the limited edition 37003 for my 2 RSH split box locos 37081 and 37085. I don't have any centre headcode ones yet, I looked at the new styled dividing bar on 37194 and thought that it was a very poor attempt. Hopefully Accurascale get around to some of these in the near future as I am sure they will do a better job.  

 

Vulcan build cantrail grills

 

 

RSH build cantrail grills have a central dividing/strenthening bar 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by young37215

[thegreenhowards]

Thanks Rob, 

 

That's incredibly useful. My brain got a little confused, so I prepared a simple spreadsheet table with the variations. Hopefully I've got this right and the simplification will be useful to other people

 

 

I'm relieved and amazed that all my 37s appear correct. The Heljan 37s generally come unnumbered and I chose 051 and 264 for my two 37/0s. Heljan seem to have chosen single rivetted for split box and welded for centre headcode, both with no cantrail strengtheners. This is logical I guess as the most numerous for each headcode box type. I have 37043 on order which should be correct, but was thinking of doing 26/27 or 81 next as they were very common when I was on the line. How easy would it be to add the cantrail strengthening or double rivet lines?

 

I'm glad all the ETH ones are from the same batch, so need need to worry about swapping identities there. Did the 37/5, 37/6 and 37/8 variants keep their roof details when modified?

 

Andy

[03060]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Rob, 

 

That's incredibly useful. My brain got a little confused, so I prepared a simple spreadsheet table with the variations. Hopefully I've got this right and the simplification will be useful to other people

 

 

I'm relieved and amazed that all my 37s appear correct. The Heljan 37s generally come unnumbered and I chose 051 and 264 for my two 37/0s. Heljan seem to have chosen single rivetted for split box and welded for centre headcode, both with no cantrail strengtheners. This is logical I guess as the most numerous for each headcode box type. I have 37043 on order which should be correct, but was thinking of doing 26/27 or 81 next as they were very common when I was on the line. How easy would it be to add the cantrail strengthening or double rivet lines?

 

I'm glad all the ETH ones are from the same batch, so need need to worry about swapping identities there. Did the 37/5, 37/6 and 37/8 variants keep their roof details when modified?

 

Andy

 

Hello Andy,

 

A really useful table there, thankyou. As regards the 37/5 and 37/6 which I respect are outside of this thread's main theme (so will keep it brief) .... a quick look at photos of our old friend 37039 suggest that it still has the features noted throughout it's life as 37504 and then 37603.

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

Ian.

[young37215]

20 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

How easy would it be to add the cantrail strengthening or double rivet lines?

 

I have not seen anyone attempt to add rivets but I have seen several attempts to fit the cantrail dividing bars using slithers of plastic cut to size and painted. None have been very good in my opinion, whether it would be any easier in 0 gauge I have no idea. 

 

The wet weather meant that I had a day largely indoors yesterday resulting in a little running. 37178 had charge of 8D09 and is seen arriving at Garelochead. The loco was outshopped from Doncaster in early 1983 having received a full overhaul and repaint making it one of those on my list of those requiring a light weathering and a few cosmetic tweaks.