West Highland Line V4, a 1980's West Highland Line layout

[young37215]

I ventured up into the loft today for the first time in a few weeks. The main reason was looking for tools to do a job outside but I sat for a while just pondering if I felt like doing anything on the layout. In the end I decided to leave everything alone. From my seat the views of Ardlui and Crianlarich were quite different to my usual angles for pictures so I thought I would record them. 

 

 

[scottystitch]

And excellent views they are. 
 

best

 

Scott.

[thegreenhowards]

On 28/05/2022 at 18:34, young37215 said:

I ventured up into the loft today for the first time in a few weeks. The main reason was looking for tools to do a job outside but I sat for a while just pondering if I felt like doing anything on the layout. In the end I decided to leave everything alone. From my seat the views of Ardlui and Crianlarich were quite different to my usual angles for pictures so I thought I would record them. 

 

 

It’s great to see a view of the layout as an operator would see it. Both stations look very impressive from this angle.

[Anadin Dogwalker]

May I ask what are your tree building techniques/source materials please? I had stockpiled a lot of Woodland Scenics fine leaf foliage but I'm having second thoughts and am looking at Noch or Heki foliage instead to go on seafoam stems. 

[young37215]

22 hours ago, Anadin Dogwalker said:

May I ask what are your tree building techniques/source materials please? I had stockpiled a lot of Woodland Scenics fine leaf foliage but I'm having second thoughts and am looking at Noch or Heki foliage instead to go on seafoam stems. 

 

Techniques are like the user, very simple! Baseboards are 12mm chipboard with the landscape built up using polystyrene cut to shape and then covered with plaster cloth. Sculptamold is added where required to fill gaps etc and then it is all painted using cheap emulsion paints. Once the paint is dry, almost everything else is a Woodland Scenics product which is the best option that I have found so far. I am sure there are alternatives that will do just as good a job but for now I am happy that I have found a method that works for me and what I attempting to produce.

 

Probably easier to explain/demonstrate using pictures of Garelochead. Here both sides were built up with polystyrene, the eastern bank (first picture right hand side) was coated in plaster cloth and smoothed out using Sculptamold. Various WS rock moulds and coarse turf make up the base layer with WS trees, clump foliage, bushes and fine leaf foliage creating height. Basket liner is used in place of the coarse turf base as a contrast.

 

 

 

 

[young37215]

Some more examples of the techniques outlined in the previous post used in creating the largely complete Ardlui and Crianlarich sections. Additionally I have used emulsion paints to create a simple backscene.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[03060]

2 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

 

 

 

.... and very evocative and effective I think your methods are too, Rob. (Apologies for the 37s livery in a 1980s theme.)

Edited June 3, 2022 by 03060
Apology added.

[thegreenhowards]

Hi Rob,

 

I hope you don’t mind me piggy backing on your thread but some time ago on here there was a discussion about the BSO-T Scotrail mini buffets which were regulars on the line. I’ve managed to persuade Steve at Railtec to scale up his 4mm decals for 7mm and have converted my Darstead BSO to this stage.

 

 

However, I’m stuck on the interior. Have you modelled the buffet itself on your vehicles? If so do you have any photo sources you could share?

 

Many thanks

 

Andy

[young37215]

Hi Andy

 

Both of my BSOs are without the ‘T’ in that they have no micro buffet which saved me the hassles of trying to do a  conversion. 
 

 

 

There is a BSO thread somewhere but no internal pictures as I recall. The GWSR has 9000 which is one of the WHL BSOTs albeit with the buffet now unused. I will take some pictures of the internal space when next on the GWSR, the conversion is a simple removal of the first row of seating bays on both sides of the coach and a counter installed on the left as you enter the coach. The toilet was removed and the space utilised as a store, from memory I think the toilet window was not changed. 

[BoD]

10 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Hi Rob,

 

I hope you don’t mind me piggy backing on your thread but some time ago on here there was a discussion about the BSO-T Scotrail mini buffets which were regulars on the line. I’ve managed to persuade Steve at Railtec to scale up his 4mm decals for 7mm and have converted my Darstead BSO to this stage.

 

 

However, I’m stuck on the interior. Have you modelled the buffet itself on your vehicles? If so do you have any photo sources you could share?

 

Many thanks

 

Andy

 

There is a picture of the buffet counter in Parkin's book on the MK1s as well as the usual plan of the interior layout.   Rob is correct in what he describes above. One interesting point is that on the opposite side of the counter the second bay  (which is now the first) has only three seats.  Parkin does say though that there was quite a bit of variation and the final result depended on where the conversion was carried out and indeed the individual carpenters. 

 

I converted a couple fairly recently and posted pictures on my own thread although they disappeared in the crash.  I must get round to re-uploading them at some point.  Wat I did though was more of an impression of the counter that a fully accurate model of it.

Edited June 13, 2022 by BoD

[ISW]

10 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

If so do you have any photo sources you could share?

Following the 'hint' from @BoD, these pictures should help:

 

and

 

Ian

[thegreenhowards]

Many thanks for your replies. I should have thought to look in Parkin! Anyway, I have what I need to give it a go now. The Darstead coach interior is very nice with proper moquette and lighting to show it off, so I’m slightly loath to cut into it but it has to be done.

 

Andy

[young37215]

As luck would have it the pictures in the thread below should also be helpful for the external detail of a BSOT. I'll add some internal pictures of 9000 in the next week or two which combined with ISW's pictures and diagrams should create a decent source of reference for anyone wanting to convert a BSO to a BSOT. Of course it does'nt address the lack of available 00 gauge MK1 BSO's for conversion, maybe Hornby will do another run of these at some stage.  

 

 

 

[BoD]

It’s noticeable the variation in the location of the numbering and lettering.  By necessity different on each side too. Further proof, if any is needed, of the idea of working from photographs where you can.

[young37215]

As BoD says, pictures are priceless when it comes to modelling something from 40 years ago. The link below takes you to a small gallery of SCR albums, one of which contains a number of BSOT picture. I have added the link to the BSOT thread

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/190808970@N06/galleries

 

I am still glad that I stuck to BSO's, not only does it mean I avoided a tricky conversion but I do'nt have enough BSO's to get one in each of the 5, 4 coach rakes that I run. 

 

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, young37215 said:

As BoD says, pictures are priceless when it comes to modelling something from 40 years ago. The link below takes you to a small gallery of SCR albums, one of which contains a number of BSOT picture. I have added the link to the BSOT thread

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/190808970@N06/galleries

 

I am still glad that I stuck to BSO's, not only does it mean I avoided a tricky conversion but I do'nt have enough BSO's to get one in each of the 5, 4 coach rakes that I run. 

 

Thanks Rob,

 

I’d found the BSOT thread before based on a previous post and based my model on this photo.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/153712773@N08/44110140224/in/gallery-190808970@N06-72157716639194312/

 

However, I Hadn’t seen the rest of the Scottish galleries - the mixed train one looks particularly interesting. So I will look forward to browsing them at my leisure.

 

I agree that it would be easier to avoid BSO-Ts but my impression from pictures and particularly from the CWN is that they were the most common brake vehicle on the WHL in the early ‘80s so I feel that at least one is required. It’s a double pain in O gauge as, not only does the conversion need to be done, but only Darstead make the BSO, and the different makes of Mk 1s don’t really mix (the Darstead ones are too high - they look fine on their own but silly in a train with others). Therefore, I will need some more Darsteads to go with this one. I’m thinking an SK and a couple of TTAs will make a good mixed rake!

 

Andy

Edited June 15, 2022 by thegreenhowards
Adding last para

[young37215]

20 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I agree that it would be easier to avoid BSO-Ts but my impression from pictures and particularly from the CWN is that they were the most common brake vehicle on the WHL in the early ‘80s so I feel that at least one is required. It’s a double pain in O gauge as, not only does the conversion need to be done, but only Darstead make the BSO, and the different makes of Mk 1s don’t really mix (the Darstead ones are too high - they look fine on their own but silly in a train with others). Therefore, I will need some more Darsteads to go with this one. I’m thinking an SK and a couple of TTAs will make a good mixed rake!

 

BSO/BSOT, BSK and BFK were all common 1980's brake vehicles on the WHL, the BSOT was a double bubble because of its buffet capacity hence ones inclusion in most trains. That said a high percentage of the numerous pictures I have looked at show passenger consists with more than 1 brake vehicle. In terms of other coaches my experience which I think is supported by the CWN's, is that open vehicles were more common than compartment stock, probably of a magnitude around 3 to 1. Put another way in a mixed train with 2 passenger coaches a TSO/SO would be more representative of 1980's normality than an SK.  

 

A quick search on Flickr reveals examples of the typical early 1980's load 6 rake with 2 brake vehicles, 1 being a BSOT

 

 

 

 

 

[BoD]

Interestingly, four photos and three different positions for the two brakes.  I wonder if there was any rhyme or reason to this or was it just the easiest/quickest way to make up the trains from the available carriage’s locations in sidings etc.

[thegreenhowards]

Great photos Rob,

 

I take the point about two brake vehicles, although I’m looking at the extension to Mallaig where one was the norm I think. From the PTM docs it seems to vary a lot from year to year which sort of brake is the favourite. BFKs were often on the extension in 1983 which is a pain because nobody makes one in O gauge!

 

Interesting comment about the ratio of opens to compartment stock. Your observation fits with the PTM docs but my memory is of snuggling down in compartment stock. I would have deliberately chosen compartments over opens, so my memory is biased but, even so, I think they were more common than the PTMs would suggest. This is not helped by my inability to tell the difference between an SK and a TSO from photos unless the roof is very clear! What are other peoples memories of the ratio of compartment stock to opens and when did the move towards opens start?
 

This photo from the galleries that you pointed me to yesterday is one I could see myself modelling. This has an SK and BFK/CK (I think!), although from a later year (1987).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/deepgreen2009/7159221751/in/gallery-190808970@N06-72157716654499327/

 

Regards

 

Andy

[young37215]

10 hours ago, BoD said:

Interestingly, four photos and three different positions for the two brakes.  I wonder if there was any rhyme or reason to this or was it just the easiest/quickest way to make up the trains from the available carriage’s locations in sidings etc.

 

I dont know for certain but suspect that Cowlairs threw out what ever was available for service. If you think that they had to provide Mk1 stock for the Glasgow Dundees as well as the WHL and only had an allocation of dated, hand me downs, I think they did a decent job of ensuring services were fully formed. There are other ex BR SCR men on RMWeb who might be able to add detail to this.

 

9 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Interesting comment about the ratio of opens to compartment stock. Your observation fits with the PTM docs but my memory is of snuggling down in compartment stock. I would have deliberately chosen compartments over opens, so my memory is biased but, even so, I think they were more common than the PTMs would suggest

 

I also favoured compartments and spent many nights asleep in one. As the greenhowards says, personal preferences and the passage of time may well cloud reality. I'll stand by the pictures I have viewed which support my opens v compo balance of coaches but Rule 1 says you can run whatever suits you best.  On WHL4 my two Oban rakes each have 2 brake coaches, a BSO and Mk2 BFK combo and the other a Mk2 BFK/Mk1 BSK lash up. Again based on pictorial evidence it seemed two brakes in Oban trains was very common; whether this was due to parcel traffic on the Oban line or simply a question of what Cowlairs had available I don't know.  

 

 

 

 

 

[37Oban]

2 hours ago, young37215 said:

 

 

I also favoured compartments and spent many nights asleep in one. As the greenhowards says, personal preferences and the passage of time may well cloud reality. I'll stand by the pictures I have viewed which support my opens v compo balance of coaches but Rule 1 says you can run whatever suits you best.  On WHL4 my two Oban rakes each have 2 brake coaches, a BSO and Mk2 BFK combo and the other a Mk2 BFK/Mk1 BSK lash up. Again based on pictorial evidence it seemed two brakes in Oban trains was very common; whether this was due to parcel traffic on the Oban line or simply a question of what Cowlairs had available I don't know.  

 

Hi,

when I lived in Oban way back in the 80's iirc the 6-car rake was the main set with a half set being used in the winter unless possible traffic warranted the larger set.  At the time I thought the use of 2 brake coaches was to accommodate tourist bicycles and excess luggage, especially for those using the ferries.  ScotRail really messed up when they brought the Sprinters into this service with their extremely limited storage space.  It's only now that they've realised the error of their ways and introduced the modified 153's for cycles and such stuff.

 

Roja

[young37215]

The use of more than 1 brake vehicle was seen right along the WHL in the early 1980's even in the shorter formed trains of the off peak months. This was particularly so on the Mallaig extension where in May 1982 37111 waits with a 3 coach consist at Mallaig containing BSOT and Mk2 BFK. 

 

 

Another extension short formed train with BSOT and Mk2 BFK headed by 37022 at Glenfinnan again in May 1982. It is quite possible that this is the same rake as in the previous picture given the dates and the coaches being in the same order. 

 

 

March 1982 saw even shorter trains, this one would be a challenge to model given that it includes a Mk1 BFK on a train hauled by 37262 approaching Lochailort .

 

 

BFK and BSOT combo on the 0600 ex Glasgow in March 1982 headed by 37085 at Glenfinnan. I am not sure of the length of the train because can't find any pictures showing the rear of the consist.

 

 

37085 leaves Fort William in 1981 with single brake vehicle, this time a BCK.

 

 

In 1984 37085 again with a 4 coach consist including BSOT and Mk2 BSO  

 

 

1984 with Mk2 D BFO and Mk1 BSO 

 

 

I could go on, there are so many variations if you choose to look for them. Excluding BG's and BSK's I think I have managed to include an example of every Mk1 and Mk2 brake vehicle in operation on BR in the early 1980's. All in all I think the pictures show that you can run pretty much any consist you like with as many brake vehicles as you want and the odds are your chosen rake will have operated on the WHL at some stage. The variety is just one of the numerous reasons I enjoy modelling the WHL.

 

 

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by young37215

[mallaig1983]

Due to the timetable I had assumed that the 4 car rakes on the extension had two brake vehicles as they were essentially two 2 car sets that would be re marshalled at FW as the day’s timetable unfolded. For example the early MLG - FW would be 2 car. At FW 2 or 3 coaches from the sleeper (the QS - FW portion) would be added to the 2 and then depart for Mallaig as a 4 or 5. This set would later form a MLG - QS service. The half 8 QS - MLG service would be 4 or 5 cars and once returned from MLG at FW would be split. The 2 or 3 coaches would be reattached to the Sleeper set leaving 2 for the last train to MLG which would of course form the first train from MLG the following morning and thus starting the whole coach shuffling process again. This would leave 2 sets, the first FW - QS and return and the teatime FW - MLQ return as fixed sets.

That is my thinking when putting my own sets together but without having completed FW on my layout I can’t test the theory as to whether each 2 car set actually needed a brake vehicle. 

These observations are taken from the summer 1983 timetable. From 1984 onwards Mallaig trains were operated from FW only and my theory is blown out of the water for any of those services with two or more brake vehicles.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by mallaig1983

[03060]

3 hours ago, young37215 said:

The use of more than 1 brake vehicle was seen right along the WHL in the early 1980's even in the shorter formed trains of the off peak months. This was particularly so on the Mallaig extension where in May 1982 37111 waits with a 3 coach consist at Mallaig containing BSO and Mk2 BFK. 

 

 

Another extension short formed train with BSO and Mk2 BFK headed by 37022 at Glenfinnan again in May 1982. It is quite possible that this is the same rake as in the previous picture given the dates and the coaches being in the same order. 

 

 

March 1982 saw even shorter trains, this one would be a challenge to model given that it includes a Mk1 BFK on a train hauled by 37262 approaching Lochailort .

 

 

BFK and BSO combo on the 0600 ex Glasgow in March 1982 headed by 37085 at Glenfinnan. I am not sure of the length of the train because can't find any pictures showing the rear of the consist.

 

 

37085 leaves Fort William in 1981 with single brake vehicle, this time a BCK.

 

 

In 1984 37085 again with a 4 coach consist including BSO's of Mk1 and Mk2  

 

 

1984 with Mk2 D BFK and Mk1 BSO 

 

 

I could go on, there are so many variations if you choose to look for them. Excluding BG's and BSK's I think I have managed to include an example of every Mk1 and Mk2 brake vehicle in operation on BR in the early 1980's. All in all I think the pictures show that you can run pretty much any consist you like with as many brake vehicles as you want and the odds are your chosen rake will have operated on the WHL at some stage. The variety is just one of the numerous reasons I enjoy modelling the WHL.

 

 

 

 

Just to add to the mix ... I'm seeing the 3 coach set in the first 2 photos (behind 37111 and 37022) as being a 5 windowed BSOT, TSO with a 4 windowed BFK bringing up the rear. I think that there is a BSOT in picture 4 as well.

 

Currently on holiday, so don't have any books with me but when I do get home I will be ordering the latest edition of the Hugh Longthorne (?) Mk.1 and Mk.2 Coach diagrams book as it's definitely an area that I lack knowledge in.

 

Regards,

Ian.

Edited June 18, 2022 by 03060
Additional comment.

[young37215]

22 hours ago, 03060 said:

the latest edition of the Hugh Longthorne (?) Mk.1 and Mk.2 Coach diagrams book as it's definitely an area that I lack knowledge in.

 

It's Hugh Longworth and whilst an excellent book, the best information about coaching stock diagrams and the booked consists comes from historic internal BR publications. I had a look at the carriage workings (Passenger Train Marshalling (PTM)) as contained in the Yahoo drives run and managed by Robert Carroll who I believe is Corrour on RMWeb. For the early 1980's there are SCR versions for 1981, 1982 and 1983 available and each show a variation for WHL services from the previous year. Rather than duplicate the diagrams, the link below will take you to the PTM's and anyone that is interested can peruse to their hearts content by joining the Yahoo group. As a brief overview I did'nt see any SK's in the PTM, only TSO's, ocassional CK's and a wide variety of brake vehicles. The PTM makes me question having an SK in each rake as I currently do and I am pondering whether I sell a few SK's and replace them with TSO's.  That said having just had a quick look on Ebay, blue and grey Mk1's seem in short supply at present meaning that absent re-mortgaging the house, I might just have to wait for Bachmann to produce another run of the TSO!

 

Most of the trains were actually booked to have 2 brake vehicles, typically a BSOT plus perm any one of BSK/BFK or BCK meaning that my 2 Oban rakes are closer to diagram than I realised. Based upon how I operate WHL4, I need 5 rakes for mainstream services (3 Glasgow Mallaig and 2 Glasgow Oban) plus the mixed train stock that did a single return journey between Fort William and Mallaig in the late afternoon/early evening. This matches quite closely the 1981 PTM whereas in later years the Mk3 sleeper rake terminated/started at Fort William which meant an additional Mk1 vacum braked rake for the Mallaig extension services was required. I have tried running a 1985 timetable but I did'nt enjoy this as much as the earlier 1980's timetables.

 

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B7wNtUp2bp_eNVhLellLUDZoekk?resourcekey=0-MyJ3cCpov0nWPCpOI-41Tw&usp=sharing

 

 

Edited June 19, 2022 by young37215