Tortoise Accessory Decoders

[Despatcher]

I have been controlling my Tortoise point motors with NCE Switch 8s for years on the grounds that they are specifically built for controlling slow motion points and slightly easier than dead simple to set up. However, having started to build a new layout they seem to be out of stock everywhere. Perhaps their time has come and gone? Is there anything similar, perhaps even better,  where I do not have to start faffing about with CVs and telling the decoder they are not controlling solenoid point motors etc i.e. old technology. My main controller is a Roco Z21 and I want to control the decoders with that and not a separate circuits with switches, i.e. proper DCC as it was intended. My new layout has only got three points. Thanks.

[BoD]

There are two designed specifically for the tortoise, the hare and the wabbit ( see what they did?). One actually plugs directly onto a tortoise's contact strip. The other controls two tortoises. I've not used them myself but came across them when browsing. They seemed pretty expensive to me.

 

If you can't get hold of a switch-8 can you get a couple of switch-It decoders. Each of those only controls 2 tortoises.

[Nigelcliffe]

If the requirement to not have to do any configuration with CV's is absolute, then the options are limited.   If willing to consider the one-time set up of the decoder, then there are loads of options - basically anything which has a constant output option will do the job. 

 

Another possibly on the "no setup" might be something in the DCC Concepts range, designed for their Cobalt motors.  Those are similar to Tortoise.   But I've not checked whether they have an option with no setup.

 

- Nigel

[RFS]

Switch8 in stock at Digitrains - http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/switch8mk2-accessory-decoder.aspx

[Despatcher]

Switch8 in stock at Digitrains - http://www.digitrains.co.uk/ecommerce/search/switch8mk2-accessory-decoder.aspx

 

Thanks. I must have missed that when I looked at the Digitrains site. Too much staring at a screen without a break. Problem solved thanks.

[Despatcher]

As the DCC world moves on at great pace, despite I continued with my research into point decoders today and found a fascinating article on the Gaugemaster website  taking the mystery out of Cobalt slow action points. These were also mentioned in the kind replies I received. As each point is self contained and also controls the polarity of the frog and electrofrog, this removes several feet or even yards of horizontal wire underneath DCC layouts from the site of a point to the nearest point decoder or frog juicer. Wonderful. The Cobalt is wired to the track bus, a further wire runs from the frog to the Cobalt. The Cobalt then needs to be assigned a number with a controller, Z21, in my case. A small switch on the Cobalt is then moved in to learn mode and the point changed using the controller (Z21). the switch is then moved back to its previous position and that's it working point. How easy is that? Thanks for all your suggestions that made me look at other things. 

[Nigelcliffe]

As the DCC world moves on at great pace, despite I continued with my research into point decoders today and found a fascinating article on the Gaugemaster website  taking the mystery out of Cobalt slow action points. These were also mentioned in the kind replies I received. As each point is self contained and also controls the polarity of the frog and electrofrog, this removes several feet or even yards of horizontal wire underneath DCC layouts from the site of a point to the nearest point decoder or frog juicer. Wonderful. The Cobalt is wired to the track bus, a further wire runs from the frog to the Cobalt. The Cobalt then needs to be assigned a number with a controller, Z21, in my case. A small switch on the Cobalt is then moved in to learn mode and the point changed using the controller (Z21). the switch is then moved back to its previous position and that's it working point. How easy is that? Thanks for all your suggestions that made me look at other things. 

 

But, there is a "gotcha" in your description above, and the gotcha is caused by the maker....   Read on...    By connecting to the Track Bus, you no longer have the option of a separate accessory bus.   So, should your layout (or sub-district) be shut down by a short circuit you can't change a turnout (the regular cause of short circuits being turnouts set wrong and drive train onto it).  Whereas with separate power districts, only the track section which is shorted will shut down.    Further, the frog switching might be simple, but it also means that does not work correctly if the Cobalt device is wired to an accessory bus (because the frog wire is not connected to accessory bus, which defeats the whole purpose of separating accessories from track. 

 

Nothing is dead simple, but often these "make it simpler for people" devices come back and bite. 

 

If you're aware of the issues, then fine, the devices will work.  If having accessory devices on the track bus is OK for your layout, then that's fine, it works, there is no law against it, and in many situations its a sensible arrangement.   But, if wanting to separate track from accessories (which is regularly recommended), then think again.  

 

- Nigel

[Despatcher]

On my current OO layout, I have a Z21 and a Booster controlling everything. As I had one of the first Z21s the Roco boosters were not compatible. Long and painful process to find out at the time (on here somewhere). This set up caused shorts when locos moved between power districts. Each of the two boosters and the Z21 had a separate power district to look after. My solution was to rewire slightly and remove the power districts. I then had the Z21 controlling the track via a power bus and just one of the boosters controlling another power bus which had three hex frog juicers and the three NEC Switch 8s connected to it. I only had three districts as my previous Bachmann Dynamis seem to give up the ghost if too many sound locos were asking it for power. 

 

Now, I am not sure if this as described qualifies as a separate accessory bus, this sounds a tad technical for me, but this set up has never failed. I am not sure if this matches what you are describing in your reply but my 18 points are not connected to the same bus as the track. Perhaps i have not fully grasped what you are describing. In which case many apologies indeed.

 

As I already had an old Cobalt digital point motor that I bought as a spare I did swap it over this afternoon. This Cobalt was wired, all three wires, to the same bus as the Frog Juicers and the Switch 8s (The booster bus) and not to the same bus as the track (The Z21 bus). All my points are Peco Electrofrog points. I ran locos of varying lengths, including my Class 31 network rail consist, at speeds of between slow crawl and quite fast over it for around 30 mins without a problem. All locos are sound fitted. It was this that got me quite enthusiastic about Cobalt Digital point motors.

 

My layout is a large modern image loco depot with a small station. It is around 25' long and 2' wide, widening to 4' wide at the station end. . I operate it by myself. There are usually around 25 locos on it at any one time. Using the layout wired as described, I have never had a short caused by a loco running onto a point set against it, the frog juicers seem to cope and most locos are heavy enough to push the point blades over as the springs have been removed anyway. I do get shorts when locos get derailed and the whole lot shuts down but I then just sort it out and reset the Z21. My layout is also end to end so there is nothing chasing its tail anywhere to worry about if a short occurs. 

[RFS]

But, there is a "gotcha" in your description above, and the gotcha is caused by the maker....   Read on...    By connecting to the Track Bus, you no longer have the option of a separate accessory bus.   So, should your layout (or sub-district) be shut down by a short circuit you can't change a turnout (the regular cause of short circuits being turnouts set wrong and drive train onto it).  Whereas with separate power districts, only the track section which is shorted will shut down.    Further, the frog switching might be simple, but it also means that does not work correctly if the Cobalt device is wired to an accessory bus (because the frog wire is not connected to accessory bus, which defeats the whole purpose of separating accessories from track. 

 

Nothing is dead simple, but often these "make it simpler for people" devices come back and bite. 

 

If you're aware of the issues, then fine, the devices will work.  If having accessory devices on the track bus is OK for your layout, then that's fine, it works, there is no law against it, and in many situations its a sensible arrangement.   But, if wanting to separate track from accessories (which is regularly recommended), then think again.  

 

- Nigel

 

The answer to this is to use the separate built-in switch on the Cobalt to manage frog polarity just as you would with a Tortoise. That can be wired to the track bus for frog polarity, with DCC power for the motor going to the accessory bus.  3 wires instead of 1 but it will work.

[Despatcher]

Not sure I understand that. I think this is far more simple than you appear to be making it and what DCC was designed for and why most people are put off from using it. It really is simple and we need to trust it. Only then will we encourage a new generation of youngsters to have a go. 

 

Let me try again. I used the switch on the Cobalt for frog polarity this afternoon and attached it to the bus from my booster which is not the track bus and it worked perfectly. Are you confusing an accessory bus which is totally separate from the track bus with my booster bus which, although separate (the wires are yellow and blue and the wires for the track from the Z21 are red and black) is linked to the Z21 by a posh cable supplied by ROCO. 

 

When I send a command from my iPad or iPhone to my Z21 via the route,r the Z21, I am assuming, sends signals to the track through the bus attached to it and also to the accessory bus attached to the booster as they are connected i.e. along both red/black and blue/yellow circuits.I am assuming "change Point 21"as a command is  sent through both bus circuits.

 

The fact that the bus from the Z21, red/black, is not connected to any of the point decoders makes the command superfluous on that circuit and it gets ignored. Similarly the command from my iPad or iPhone to sound the horn on loco 26 will travel along the bus on both circuits but will be ignored by the booster circuit as none of the track connections are made to the booster circuit and the command is ignored.

 

Likewise, if I attach the frog on a Cobalt digital point motor to the booster circuit, yellow/blue, when a short occurs the "oh dear there is a short at point 97" command will travel back to the booster and reach the Z21 as they are attached. Somewhere in the DCC heart of the Z21 it will send a "please change the polarity of point 97" back along both circuits as they are connected. The frog juicers or the digital cobalt will respond to the command and the Z21track circuit will do nothing as nothing to change polarity is attached to it. 

 

To confirm, when I wired in a Cobalt digital to my layout this afternoon the power wires were attached to the booster circuit, yellow/blue, and so was the frog wire from the point. There are no connections to the track at all on the yellow/blue circuit. All track connections are on the Z21 bus which is black/red wire. It worked perfectly. You seem to be saying that power is fine on booster circuit, yellow/blue, but the frog needs attaching to the track circuit, red/black, from the Z21. This is not the case.

 

My layout has worked perfectly for 3/4 years with the point motors and frog juicers attached to the booster, yellow/black, circuit. Sometimes DCC is more logical than it seems and can sort itself out without us humans having to think for it. And sometimes we assume it won't work just because assumed logic tells us otherwise. Often trying to understand technology is fruitless. 

[melmerby]

As the DCC world moves on at great pace, despite I continued with my research into point decoders today and found a fascinating article on the Gaugemaster website  taking the mystery out of Cobalt slow action points. These were also mentioned in the kind replies I received. As each point is self contained and also controls the polarity of the frog and electrofrog, this removes several feet or even yards of horizontal wire underneath DCC layouts from the site of a point to the nearest point decoder or frog juicer. Wonderful. The Cobalt is wired to the track bus, a further wire runs from the frog to the Cobalt. The Cobalt then needs to be assigned a number with a controller, Z21, in my case. A small switch on the Cobalt is then moved in to learn mode and the point changed using the controller (Z21). the switch is then moved back to its previous position and that's it working point. How easy is that? Thanks for all your suggestions that made me look at other things. 

Nothing new in that!

The Traintronics TT300 is also a self contained DCC turnout motor with frog switching. Programming and wiring up is just as simple

It is British made and has been around for years

http://www.traintronics.co.uk/products/dcc-for-model-railways/slow-motion-motor-driven-point-motor-dcc--analogue/10-57

 

But as Nigel says, having a seperate accessory feed is better than connecting everything to a track bus.

Keith

[newbryford]

 

 

Another possibly on the "no setup" might be something in the DCC Concepts range, designed for their Cobalt motors.  Those are similar to Tortoise.   But I've not checked whether they have an option with no setup.

 

- Nigel

 

The AD-FX range are suitable for slow action motors. 

8 way https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-ip-dcc-decoder-fx-stall-motor-drive-8-way-output/

2 way https://www.dccconcepts.com/product/cobalt-ip-dcc-decoder-fx-stall-motor-drive-2-way-output/

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Despatcher]

I am sure that all kinds of solutions work for different people. At the end of the day it is what we are happy with our in own situation. However, nothing is the perfect solution. I tried TT300 and it just seemed overcomplicated for my simple brain. I got frustrated with it and sold it on eBay. I suppose this is down to individual knowledge and understanding. So different for all of us. 

 

As ever, we will all plough what we believe are our own perfect furrows, each convinced that what we have is the best solution for out particular layouts. If there was but one solution the trade stands at Warley and Ally Pally would be minimal! We need to be prepared to fail as often, success lies on the far side of failure. After all it is only a hobby. A past time. We should be able to muck something up from time to time without beating ourselves up about it.

 

I want to find different solutions. I am a great believer in the saying "if you do what you always do, you will get what you always get". I personally don't want what I always get. I want better. And simper. I try and build each layout differently otherwise I get bored. I prefer to look at what is new and try and see how it might change and enhance what I do. I want to encourage at least one of my five grandchildren to want to build a model railway. Failing totally so far! Can't drag then away from their various forms of iPad/Tablet thingy. I suspect when all us "Puffer Nutters" depart this earth, then the hobby will depart with us if we are not careful. None of my grandchildren, or indeed their parents have any idea what a Class 66 is! And a Black 5 or a Class 40 stand no chance at all. They do however like travelling on the Look branch every summer when we all go to Cornwall. However the steam heritage railway at Bodmin has been classified as "well boring". 

 

Thanks. As ever, I think my original question has been answered enough for me to plough another different furrow. Thank goodness for RM Web.

[melmerby]

 I tried TT300 and it just seemed overcomplicated for my simple brain. I got frustrated with it and sold it on eBay.

I'm not sure why you think it is over complicated.

If you use the track power for your DCC signal it is as follows:

2 wires to track, one to frog. Connect a link on unit, send allocated address from DCC unit. Done.

Remove link and it is ready to use, I can't see how much simpler it can be.

 

Keith

[Despatcher]

That sounds easy. I just have a real talent of a knack of making anything complicated. I think I have limited understanding and skills syndrome! It just did not seem that easy to me and I could not get it to work. Oh well, takes all sorts. But thanks for the reply and the explanation. 

[melmerby]

That sounds easy. I just have a real talent of a knack of making anything complicated. I think I have limited understanding and skills syndrome! It just did not seem that easy to me and I could not get it to work. Oh well, takes all sorts. But thanks for the reply and the explanation. 

If you read the full instructions it can be quite daunting as there are facilities to set up routes using secondary CVs, which is fairly complex.

 

To be honest I didn't like the two I bought, although easy to program I didn't rate the long term reliability as after about 12 months the first start to slip at the end of travel (e.g. wouldn't switch off), the second sometime later.

(I wouldn't use them with fragile points as the device relies on the pressure at the end of travel to operate a microswitch)

 

I now use one to drive a traverser where it does not rely on the internal clutch! I will probably use the other for a level crossing mech. or similar.

Likewise the two Cobalts I bought were not the best investment either, noisier than a Tortoise and one started sticking at the end of travel after some use.

 

I plumped for Tortoise with Switch-8s and Switch-Its, never looked back, totally reliable with no failures apart from one Switch-8 where the loss of two outputs was found to be caused by a solder splash under an IC. (presumably there from manufacture)

 

Keith

[Despatcher]

Thanks Keith. I think it was the instructions I found daunting as I had not got a PhD in electronic switching gobbledegook. Yes my Switch 8s and tortoises are also going strong after many a year. At least 7, maybe 9. Which is where I started this thread!!!!! I have also had similar clicking problems with Cobalts too. And also Cobalt motors that do not stop once they have thrown the point. 

 

I did have a problem with one of my hex frogjuicers. It was just out of its one year warranty with the outlet I bought it from. They suggested sending to back to the manufacturer in California. I looked into it and air mail was just over £3.00. So I sent it with a covering letter never expecting to see it again. It arrived back within two weeks, mended, it was a soldering fault and with a lovely letter. And I wasn't charged at all. I still have the emails and letter. How good is that?

 

Thanks.

[newbryford]

 

Likewise the two Cobalts I bought were not the best investment either, noisier than a Tortoise and one started sticking at the end of travel after some use.

 

 

 

Some of the early design Cobalts had issues if you didn't use well-regulated power supplies. The later Digital IP, Analogue IP and Omega ranges are far better, mechanically, acoustically and electrically.