Darstaed Mk1 coaches for 7mm.

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi all,

 

Interesting Thread-just working my way through it.

 

Ive been trying to get a look at a photo of the underframes and bogies of these MK1s, the EPs look to have the bogies incorrectly mounted and the underframe detail looks out of kilter too. Its hard to tell though due lighting issues and photo quality.

 

MK1s being a standardised design should be easy to model, but as theyre long lived, they arent, like 08s and Terriers, theyre a double edged sword. There are challenges with the shape ie tumblehomes etc etc too. Some sensible compromises can be made relative to window type, ends, livery/era, if one wants stand-off-viewing-distance models. The next level up, Id term as layout models, correct in almost all-all dimentional-respects to run out-of-the-box, but also, at a fair price, suitable for super-detailing by those who wish to. I see no reason why such models cant suit the needs and wishes of garden rly modellers, collectors and layout modellers alike (with the exception of, perhaps, collectors of 'Tinplate' per se).

 

The MMP MK1 kit has to be the best MK1 currently available, and as always, its horses for courses. Usual caveats apply in that I am a happy customer of several coach kit suppliers. In basic terms, the MMP MK1 coaches are 'museum quality'. I build layout models, which are less detailed, but detailed enough-I hope-to deceive the eye in most regards. I have to, as most of the time, Im a lone modeller, with restricted time on a budget. I prefer kit building to RTR, but RTR is a needed aspect of the layout in terms of making progress in this life time.

 

I, for one, value MMPs input here and DJPs contribution to the hobby over the years.

 

I had heard that a.n.other was entering the market with RTR MK1s in 7mm?? *

 

To date, there have been a lot of missed opportunities for FS RTR MK1s at a VFM price.

 

I shall be interested to see what comes of the latest batch of RTR MK1s though.

 

ATVB

 

CME.

 

* See Facebook for CADs from Lopad (LOL!).

Edited November 28, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[47606odin]

[quote name="CME and Bottlewasher" post="

I had heard that a.n.other was entering the market with RTR MK1s in 7mm?? *

 

Seen a flyer for lionheart MK1s

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Seen a flyer for lionheart MK1s

Yep 'Lopad' (Dapol)....theyll be 5 years in the making as the single source factory is overwhelmed! Lol! They appear to be at the CAD stage?

 

ATB

 

CME

[81A Oldoak]

Dear David,

 

Thank you for your valuable advice.

Darstaed adheres to the adage “the best product for the best value” because I like the hobby to be fun and affordable. This means by necessity that we have to find a compromise between how many variations we make and tooling expenditure on one hand and what detailing would please the majority of the customers. For those who wish to take it further there are many options available but at a cost of course.

We will study your observations and see what is practical. As manufacturers we consider making the best product we can as an investment in the future and we will do everything to make the maximum with the means available.

Cheers,

Andries.

 

Dear Deltic 17,

May I suggest you contact Bob or Ellis for extra bogies ? If routed through the supply chain your request will be attended to,

Cheers,

Andries

Dear Andries,

I concur with your philosophy about striking a sensible balance between doing everything and doing what can be done at a sensible price.  Our aim at Minerva Model Railways is to produce high quality products at a fair price and, very importantly, on time.  

Regards,

Chris K

[Darstaed]

Upgrade 1
Gentlemen,

Henceforward all coaches will have brake-rodding fitted.
All who already purchased the BR(W) and BR(S) liveriesthat do not have the brake-rodding can get (soon) from our two distributors an upgrade set so that you can install the brake-rodding.
Cheers,

Andries

Edited December 27, 2017 by Darstaed

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Hi Andries,

 

Are there any close up photos of underframes and bogies, and of the coaches as a whole yet?*

 

With thanks and kind regards,

 

CME

 

* As 'some' have already been purchased?

Edited December 27, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Darstaed]

Hi Andries,

 

Are there any close up photos of underframes and bogies, and of the coaches as a whole yet?*

 

With thanks and kind regards,

 

CME

 

* As 'some' have already been purchased?

Dear CME, Thank you for your post.

 

I have posted a picture of the brake-rodding on :

https://www.facebook.com/Darstaed

 

Many more pictures are on Ellis Clarks website.

Cheers,

Andries

[two tone green]

Morning Andries,

 

Thanks for the updates on the Mk1’s.

 

Any news on the crimson and cream ones please and the projected dates for the single coaches such as the sleepers.

 

Thanks.

[Darstaed]

Morning Andries,

 

Thanks for the updates on the Mk1’s.

 

Any news on the crimson and cream ones please and the projected dates for the single coaches such as the sleepers.

 

Thanks.

 

Dear two tone, Good evening.

Thank you for your post,

The B+C sets A plus a few CK singles will fly on January 3rd and should be available by the end of next week from Scale Link or Ellis Clark.

The month of January will see first the Sets A of Blue/Grey, then maroon and then IC. It is possible ICs will be delayed until after Chinese New Year in March.

Then we will start with all the singles of which the SLF will be fourth as we are still making the tooling for the roof and coach end parts which are in the same tooling for the interiors of the RMB and Restaurant cars.

Last will be BG as that is an entirely new set of tooling for 40 cm.

By August it should all be done and we go on to the Gresleys.

Cheers,

Andries

[two tone green]

Hello Andries,

 

All good news. I will be getting a message from Scale Link about my order.

 

Thanks

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Dear CME, Thank you for your post.

 

I have posted a picture of the brake-rodding on :

https://www.facebook.com/Darstaed

 

Many more pictures are on Ellis Clarks website.

Cheers,

Andries

Thanks Andries.

 

Do you know if the end steps will be removed for the Blue/Grey versions when theyre ready for retail sale?

 

And will the weld seams be represented on the roof tops?

 

Kindest regards, with thanks,

 

CME

Edited December 29, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Darstaed]

Thanks Andries.

 

Do you know if the end steps will be removed for the Blue/Grey versions when theyre ready for retail sale?

 

And will the weld seams be represented on the roof tops?

 

Kindest regards, with thanks,

 

CME

 

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post.

I do not understand the question about the steps. I have not given any instructions to remove any steps so far ?

Regarding the weld seams we have of course considered it.

The weld seams are very thin both in width and depth. It is very difficult to render them properly and most likely they will be too "fat" when we put them on. That will not be in line with the character of the coach as on most real ones these weld lines are hardly visible and only then if enough dirt has been accumulated to offset the against the back ground.

Also I am not sure if on all the roofs of all the different coaches we are making the weld lines are in the same location which means different tools and that is bad news.

Therefore we, together with our distributors and gurus, have decided not to make the weld lines at this time.

However if there is demand we may experiment printing an ever so thin line of a slightly darker grey which will simulate the shadow of the weld line or if enough customers want it we will change the roof tooling at the end of the run and put the weld lines on. So you may change the roofs if you wish.

We shall see how it develops.

Cheers,

Andries

 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post.

I do not understand the question about the steps. I have not given any instructions to remove any steps so far ?

Regarding the weld seams we have of course considered it.

The weld seams are very thin both in width and depth. It is very difficult to render them properly and most likely they will be too "fat" when we put them on. That will not be in line with the character of the coach as on most real ones these weld lines are hardly visible and only then if enough dirt has been accumulated to offset the against the back ground.

Also I am not sure if on all the roofs of all the different coaches we are making the weld lines are in the same location which means different tools and that is bad news.

Therefore we, together with our distributors and gurus, have decided not to make the weld lines at this time.

However if there is demand we may experiment printing an ever so thin line of a slightly darker grey which will simulate the shadow of the weld line or if enough customers want it we will change the roof tooling at the end of the run and put the weld lines on. So you may change the roofs if you wish.

We shall see how it develops.

Cheers,

Andries

Hi Andries,

 

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

 

The roof weld seams are very fine, most model them as raised when they should be cut/let in/indented thin lines, representing weld seams and, in effect, fine panel lines. Some leave them off when modelling such too. I can understand that, although it makes roofs look a little bare. Its a difficult call. Your solution sounds interesting, but could be hidden if a customer weathers their roofs. Very thin indented/cut in lines would be better.

 

Most of this detail is, iirc, in the Keith Parkin books.

 

From my research over the years-as the MK1s were standardised-these roof panel/weld lines were all the same on MK1 passenger stock.

 

The end steps? For most, if not all, later MK1 coaches, they were/had been removed (with the exception of the bottom one or two which were left for various reasons-thus my question) and had various types of plates, strips/welds over the fixing holes etc.

 

A basic 'rule of thumb', to the best of my knowledge, is that if a MK1 had been fitted with the external (modified repair-due to rust etc) window frames, then there should be no end steps fitted. AFAICT end steps were removed as a health and safety directive (due to overhead electrification programmes and other general safety considerations). From the photos you directed me to, this doesnt appear to be the case on later liveried coaches (those appear to be your pre-production models though? Hence my question).

 

With thanks and kind regards,

 

CME

Edited December 29, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Darstaed]

Hi Andries,

 

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

 

The roof weld seams are very fine, most model them as raised when they should be cut/let in/indented thin lines,

 

The end steps? For most, if not all, later MK1 coaches, they were/had been removed (with the exception of the bottom one or two which were left for various reasons-thus my question) and had various types of plates, strips/welds over the fixing holes etc.

 

A basic 'rule of thumb', to the best of my knowledge, is that if a MK1 had been fitted with the external (modified repair-due to rust etc) window frames, then there should be no end steps fitted. AFAI

 

With thanks and kind regards,

 

CME

 

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post.

 

Re Roofs :

Some manufacturers do not spray the roofs and leave the bare ABS. I think that gives a too much "plastic" look so I prefer to spray the roofs.

If we would be making very small grooves then the paint will most of the time fill up the grooves unless we make the grooves wide enough and I am not sure if we want to do that. If some grooves are filled and some are not or partly then the whole roof has to be chucked away. We need for mass production a uniform process that does not leave room for error.

Once this production is done I will look into it and do some experimenting, after all our hobby is a progressive science and I always can make a number of new roofs that incorporate new features.

 

Re Steps : I am living in China now and the local Gestapo does not favor surfing the internet. Google search and other communication tools are verboten in the workers paradise. So I have asked my Chief Engineer Vijay who is on holidays in India now to do a quick check. He says that 70% of the MK1 coaches that he found pictures off on the internet do not have the steps whilst having window frames and 30% have both steps and window frames. This does not take into account restored coaches.

Of course you are correct that at some point the steps were phased out.

As we were planning to make a new coach end anyway so it does incorporate the electrical tubing as a separate part, it is easy for us to omit the steps and supply these coach ends as an upgrade for whomsoever doesn't want the steps.

This will be done before we do the ICs in June.

I thank you for your time and help to improve our work.

 

Cheers,

Andries

 

 

 

 

[Simond]

I’d be a bit wary of satire and sarcasm were I to find myself in a similar location...

 

Walls have ears, as the saying goes.

 

Best

Simon

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post.

 

Re Roofs :

Some manufacturers do not spray the roofs and leave the bare ABS. I think that gives a too much "plastic" look so I prefer to spray the roofs.

If we would be making very small grooves then the paint will most of the time fill up the grooves unless we make the grooves wide enough and I am not sure if we want to do that. If some grooves are filled and some are not or partly then the whole roof has to be chucked away. We need for mass production a uniform process that does not leave room for error.

Once this production is done I will look into it and do some experimenting, after all our hobby is a progressive science and I always can make a number of new roofs that incorporate new features.

 

Re Steps : I am living in China now and the local Gestapo does not favor surfing the internet. Google search and other communication tools are verboten in the workers paradise. So I have asked my Chief Engineer Vijay who is on holidays in India now to do a quick check. He says that 70% of the MK1 coaches that he found pictures off on the internet do not have the steps whilst having window frames and 30% have both steps and window frames. This does not take into account restored coaches.

Of course you are correct that at some point the steps were phased out.

As we were planning to make a new coach end anyway so it does incorporate the electrical tubing as a separate part, it is easy for us to omit the steps and supply these coach ends as an upgrade for whomsoever doesn't want the steps.

This will be done before we do the ICs in June.

I thank you for your time and help to improve our work.

 

Cheers,

Andries

 

Hi Andries,

 

I agree, from your POV about the roofs, it's almost a Marmite issue, as we say over here a real 50/50 issue.

 

I support your comments on continous improvement-good for you to have such an ethos! Many dont.

 

Dont get me started on the various regimes around the world and the different ways in which they try to herd us like cattle, if we were all left alone to just get on with life we would all rub along fine without any input from any of TPTB! But do take care, Ive met folk from the TS 'incident'!

 

I find that the internet is okay for research, so are some preserved coaches (but MK1 restorations are NOT always as accurate as other rarer coach types, so one must beware of that as theyre not always accurate!). The bible for such details are books by reputable authors such as Parkin et al. Certainly by Blue Grey era steps-except for the one above the buffer housings-were gone, also on the Inter City and NWR liveries. The Maroon, SR Green liveries, many of those had steps removed too, although not all. Im guessing that when the MKIs went in for remedial rust/corrosion repairs and the fitment of external replacement window frames (they rotted out quickly, everywhere, inc window surrounds) the MK1s had steps removed then, but as a rolling programme, in other words not all were done at the same time.

 

Glad to hear that you have interchangable ends as that will give greater accuracy and make your lives easier.

 

Kindest regards, with thanks.

 

CME

Edited December 30, 2017 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Phill Dyson (onslaught832)]

Could I suggest that multiple orders of specific diagrams of  these coaches be available at the same rate as the multi packs? ........I'm sure many will not require 2 brakes in a pack or catering vehicles

[Darstaed]

Hi Andries,

 

I agree, from your POV about the roofs, it's almost a Marmite issue, as we say over here a real 50/50 issue.

 

I support your comments on continous improvement-good for you to have such an ethos! Many dont.

 

Dont get me started on the various regimes around the world and the different ways in which they try to herd us like cattle, if we were all left alone to just get on with life we would all rub along fine without any input from any of TPTB! But do take care, Ive met folk from the TS 'incident'!

 

I find that the internet is okay for research, so are some preserved coaches (but MK1 restorations are NOT always as accurate as other rarer coach types, so one must beware of that as theyre not always accurate!). The bible for such details are books by reputable authors such as Parkin et al. Certainly by Blue Grey era steps-except for the one above the buffer housings-were gone, also on the Inter City and NWR liveries. The Maroon, SR Green liveries, many of those had steps removed too, although not all. Im guessing that when the MKIs went in for remedial rust/corrosion repairs and the fitment of external replacement window frames (they rotted out quickly, everywhere, inc window surrounds) the MK1s had steps removed then, but as a rolling programme, in other words not all were done at the same time.

 

Glad to hear that you have interchangable ends as that will give greater accuracy and make your lives easier.

 

Kindest regards, with thanks.

 

CME

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post and your very valuable comments.

We will proceed and report accordingly,

Cheers,

Andries

 

P.S. I love marmite.

Edited December 31, 2017 by Darstaed

[Darstaed]

Could I suggest that multiple orders of specific diagrams of  these coaches be available at the same rate as the multi packs? ........I'm sure many will not require 2 brakes in a pack or catering vehicles

Dear Phill,

Thank you for your post and suggestion,

I am just an artificer in metals with a chisel and heavy maul.

How and when to issue which products is decided together with our two distributors Bob Wyatt and Ellis Clark as they are in the market and know our customers requirements.

May I suggest you contact them ? I produce what the customers ask me to produce, it would be foolish not to do so.

Cheers,

Andries

Edited December 31, 2017 by Darstaed

[Darstaed]

Gentlemen,

We are now finalising the interiors of the Sleepers.
We cannot find any pictures of the inside corridors with the doors of the compartments.
I like to know if the doors had numbers on them as I assume the compartments were numbered as is usage on the continent.

Can any of you enlighten us on this point ?
Thank you,

cheers,

Andries

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Could I suggest that multiple orders of specific diagrams of these coaches be available at the same rate as the multi packs? ........I'm sure many will not require 2 brakes in a pack or catering vehicles

Hi Phill,

Thats a wise idea. As someone who models the SE/SW thus SR though, two brakes are appropriate for three coach trains....yet for other train formations/liveries using MK1s, I wont need two brakes....it's all about prototypical appropriateness......

Dear CME,

Thank you for your post and your very valuable comments.

We will proceed and report accordingly,

Cheers,

Andries

 

P.S. I love marmite.

Hi Andries,

You are most welcome-I like Marmite too......

Dear Phill,

Thank you for your post and suggestion,

I am just an artificer in metals with a chisel and heavy maul.

How and when to issue which products is decided together with our two distributors Bob Wyatt and Ellis Clark as they are in the market and know our customers requirements.

May I suggest you contact them ? I produce what the customers ask me to produce, it would be foolish not to do so.

Cheers,

Andries

.....Thanks Andries,

I know with one, fairly recent release of RTR coaches (from another manufacturer), which were modelled on one of the 'big four's' coach consists, many folk found it frustrating that such issues were not considered or, apparently, heard by the manufacturer(s) or their distributors-and certain releases/coaches didnt cater for the masses. Some modellers of 7mm may have a need for large mainline rakes/consists for a garden rly empire, others the want/need for several three coach rakes in different liveries from different eras. It is not always true to say that the customer knows best/is always right, but with 7mm scale coaches many seem to know what they want/need. Im doubtful, if, in 7mm, folk will buy a 'train-pack' (set) of coaches, as an impulse purchase - as such are a considered purchase for those of us not on final salary pensions etc. - if one or two of the coaches within are not suitable for their needs or wants. Much better, imhho, to Eg., offer discounts on purchases of 2 or more coaches, or when coaches are purchased as a rake (ie in multiples). How one predicts demand, however, is of course a thorny subject. And, as seems to be par for the course, these days, duplication hoves into view, in that Dapol are now proposing a range of MK1s in 7mm. True others have gone before with 7mm RTR/ARTR MK1 coaches, but these previous releases have had their issues in terms of accuracy and ease of use/accessability. Darstaed seem to be listening and making progress-which bodes well-the proof of the pudding is always in the finished RTR model though.

 

Kind regards to all,

 

CME

Edited January 12, 2018 by CME and Bottlewasher

[Bob Reid]

Gentlemen,

We are now finalising the interiors of the Sleepers.

We cannot find any pictures of the inside corridors with the doors of the compartments.

I like to know if the doors had numbers on them as I assume the compartments were numbered as is usage on the continent.

Can any of you enlighten us on this point ?

Thank you,

cheers,

Andries

 

Andries, all of the berth doors were numbered however these were in the form of small illuminated tabs positioned above the height of the door and wouldn't be easily visible from the outside (they were above the height of the corridor bodylights). 

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Andries,

 

With the vents above the toilet windows, according to the photos that youve recently pointed me to, they seem not to have the vents present/fitted (the vents should raised slightly and slightly angled too), will such be included/featured on the production models?

 

Also, on later coaches, do they all come with commonwealth bogies or can other bogie types be specified/will they be fitted or perhaps available as spares?

 

Thanks in anticipation, kind regards,

 

CME

[Darstaed]

Hi Phill,

.......Much better, imhho, to Eg., offer discounts on purchases of 2 or more coaches, or when coaches are purchased as a rake (ie in multiples). How one predicts demand, however, is of course a thorny subject......

Kind regards to all,

CME

Dear CME,

All decisions re pricing, discounts etc are taken by Ellis Clark and Bob Wyatt jointly. I am just the manufacturer, arcane science of marketing is not my cup of tea.

Perhaps you should contact them,

Cheers,

Andries

 

[Darstaed]

Andries, all of the berth doors were numbered however these were in the form of small illuminated tabs positioned above the height of the door and wouldn't be easily visible from the outside (they were above the height of the corridor bodylights). 

Dear Bob,

Thank you for your advice. Is there somewhere a picture available ?

Cheers,

Andries