Southern Railway Modelling - Miscellaneous Project work

[chris45lsw]

Update!

 

I took some advice from Brocp (who's excellent weathering thread you can find here) In regards to what products he uses, so with a few new powders on the bench I gave the M7 another going over:

 

 

 

and had another crack at the Adams radial;

 

 

I feel like i'm getting there, Now I just need to devise a process.

 

Also getting close to finishing off the oil burning conversion. I wasn't able to find many details on the tender tank front, but I know there was one toolbox instead of two. I might've got a bit overboard with the shelf, I figure the crew would need somewhere to put their tea!

 

 

 

 

I'm still not sold on archers rivets. They are a good idea in theory, but they refuse to stick to the surface, I only got these ones to stay with some clear varnish. Pressfix would be a much better idea I reckon!

 

 

This is where I must admit that this is not as close to the original as I would like. I wasn't able to represent the small wires running from the smokebox 'Halo' to the electric lights, nor could I get the 'Halo' to sit far enough out without going oval. I also think the wire I've used between the front lights is a bit thick. I'm hoping that some paint will hide my sins, not to mention the monstrosity that is the electrical generator that i've made.

 

Will update again soon!

 

Thanks for reading, as usual, any feedback or opinions are appreciated! 

Hello Jack

 

Me again, I'm afraid.  I do like the plain black Bulleid livery and love your weathered renditions of this livery.  But by the time M7

357 received this livery (in 1943) it had no smokebox wing plates (removed in 1939).  Also by then the coal rails would have been plated over to cover the gaps!

 

Chris KT

[Jack P]

On 24/05/2018 at 21:48, chris45lsw said:

Hello Jack

 

Me again, I'm afraid.  I do like the plain black Bulleid livery and love your weathered renditions of this livery.  But by the time M7

357 received this livery (in 1943) it had no smokebox wing plates (removed in 1939).  Also by then the coal rails would have been plated over to cover the gaps!

 

Chris KT

 

Chris, I do appreciate your insights! Expect a few PM's from now on.. your notes are obviously better than mine!

 

Now to see if I can remove those wing plates..

Edited September 10, 2019 by Jack P

[DLT]

To echo what others have said; that Arthur looks fabulous.  You've made a really good job of the oil tank, especially given your thoughts on Archer Rivets.  I must admit, I've not got on with the waterslide rivets, but then I don't like waterslide transfers anyway.

I usually find that half the glue stays behind on the paper, and the actual transfers are so fragile that they break if you breath on them.

 

Regarding Romford/Markits wheels, those that you have illustrated are un-insulated.  The insulated variety have a visible fibre ring between centre and rim.  I have no real preference between metal Romford and plastic-centred Gibson wheels, with Romfords of course you only need pickups on the insulated side, with Gibson you need them on both.  I always try to fit pickups on as many wheels as possible, so I'll always opt for pickups on the tender.  Mind you, with that massive whitemetal loco body, you're not going to have any pickup problems!  Pickups on front bogies etc CAN be more trouble than they're worth.

 

I always opt for conventional wiper pickups, made from 15thou Nickel-Silver wire (Eileens Emporium)   I quote 15thou for the wire as that is what I've found to be the optimum thickness for strength and springiness.  12thou doesnt have enough spring to be effective, while 18thou is too stiff and can form very effective brakes.

I can't get on with plunger type pickups; they are a "Fit once and permanently hope they are ok" type of installation.  You can't adjust them once they are in, they're difficult to clean, and have a nasty tendency to seize in their tubes.

 

I hope this helps, there is a lot more about pickups on my workbench if you need it.

 

All the best,

Dave.

[jrg1]

The finished Arthur looks like it is a Hornby product striaght out of the box-well done!

[chrisf]

The finished Arthur looks like it is a Hornby product striaght out of the box-well done!

 

Oh come on, it looks better than that!

 

Chris

[Jack P]

British practice is usually all wheels insulated, and pickups both sides. American practice is usually insulate wheels one side, then you can get locos with insulated wheels one side, tenders insulated the other side, and then no pickups, but the drawbar needs to be insulated with a jumper lead tender to motor. The same thing can also be done with the two bogies on a diesel. The British method means you get the maximum number of contact points for picking up, although bogies and pony trucks are a faff to fit pickups to, and can get missed.

 

 

• If you build your loco with insulated wheels on both sides, you will need two sets of springy current collectors, one set for each side.  With that arrangement the chassis does not play a part in current distribution.

 

Thanks guys. I think I'll probably try and source some replacement wheels and run it fully insulated. My plan is to use the Hornby King Arthur tender, so luckily this is already fitted with pickups - I just need to figure out a reliable way of getting the current to the motor. 

 

In that same vein, If I do go with replacement wheels, would I be better off replacing the whole lot or would it be ok to just get 3 replacement insulated ones? (3 of the existing ones are insulated, I just didn't look hard enough the first time!)

 

To echo what others have said; that Arthur looks fabulous.  You've made a really good job of the oil tank, especially given your thoughts on Archer Rivets.  I must admit, I've not got on with the waterslide rivets, but then I don't like waterslide transfers anyway.

I usually find that half the glue stays behind on the paper, and the actual transfers are so fragile that they break if you breath on them.

 

Regarding Romford/Markits wheels, those that you have illustrated are un-insulated.  The insulated variety have a visible fibre ring between centre and rim.  I have no real preference between metal Romford and plastic-centred Gibson wheels, with Romfords of course you only need pickups on the insulated side, with Gibson you need them on both.  I always try to fit pickups on as many wheels as possible, so I'll always opt for pickups on the tender.  Mind you, with that massive whitemetal loco body, you're not going to have any pickup problems!  Pickups on front bogies etc CAN be more trouble than they're worth.

 

I always opt for conventional wiper pickups, made from 15thou Nickel-Silver wire (Eileens Emporium)   I quote 15thou for the wire as that is what I've found to be the optimum thickness for strength and springiness.  12thou doesnt have enough spring to be effective, while 18thou is too stiff and can form very effective brakes.

I can't get on with plunger type pickups; they are a "Fit once and permanently hope they are ok" type of installation.  You can't adjust them once they are in, they're difficult to clean, and have a nasty tendency to seize in their tubes.

 

I hope this helps, there is a lot more about pickups on my workbench if you need it.

 

All the best,

Dave.

 

 

Thanks Dave, 

 

I'm not a big fan of waterslide either. and I've just been coming to terms with some Pressfix transfers that seem to leave a lot of excess glue on the model.. any tips for removing that, or do I just have a dud sheet?

 

As I mentioned earlier, I definitely plan to use pickups wherever possible, the tender is pretty much taken care of, but I don't think i'll bother with the front bogie, I'll have 14 wheels picking up current already. I'm glad you let me know about the 15thou nickel wire, I need to place an order with Eileens for some Low melt solder, so i'll make sure to add that in. I did have a look through your thread recently but I must admit it wasn't for pick-ups specifically. I'll make sure to have another read through while i'm at work tomorrow! (I find this is the best time to catch up on RMWeb, the boss isn't so sure).

 

Thank you and everyone else for your kind words about the Arthur! I took it out to the club today, but foolishly didn't bring my camera, so an iPhone photo will have to do for now!

 

 

I mentioned having trouble with Pressfix transfers, This is what I was struggling with:

 

 

The Chairman of my club asked me if I would renumber a spare E4 he had, I happily agreed, and chose the last numerically of the class. Here she is with the detailing fitted, before being returned to her owner today.

 

Finally, I've been burning my fingers! Well actually I haven't really, but my temperature controlled soldering station arrived the other day, so I took the liberty of getting to know it a little better. 

 

 

Coach sides were purchased from a fellow member, and reader of this thread (thanks Phil)

 

 

And this SECR J class chassis was bought from eBay, but only had the correct frame spacers and parts to be built to P4 scale, that's ok though, spaced out Hornby wheels seem to run just fine! I know they aren't pretty, and i've made a real dogs ear out of the coach side, but I would hate to jump in, guns blazing and ruin the N15x, so they are good practice. I need to get a 'c' shaped bit for the soldering iron next, as I think that will help significantly. 

 

That's all in terms of photos for now, I'm working on the Backhead of the N15x, and will order some low-melt solder, I happen to have a Wills Finecast E2 to practice whitemetal soldering on first though!

 

Thanks for reading, and thanks again for all your comments, helpful advice and feedback!

 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Jack P

[Jack P]

Well my Donor King Arthur arrived, so I started stripping it for parts. 

 

I also took a quick snap of the tender with the air tanks fitted. From photos, I actually don't think the tanks are big enough.

 

 

There's a good side on shot here: Click me

 

If anyone has any thoughts on this I would be very interested to hear

[jrg1]

Well my Donor King Arthur arrived, so I started stripping it for parts. 

 

I also took a quick snap of the tender with the air tanks fitted. From photos, I actually don't think the tanks are big enough.

 

 

There's a good side on shot here: Click me

 

If anyone has any thoughts on this I would be very interested to hear

The photograph you refer to seems to have shorter length and radiused ended tanks.  I find it easy to make these from brass tube, with soldeed ends a detailing.

[Jack P]

The photograph you refer to seems to have shorter length and radiused ended tanks.  I find it easy to make these from brass tube, with soldeed ends a detailing.

 

I realise the photo of the model was not in the same position as the prototype photo which makes it hard to compare, turning it side on they look to be the same length, but the radiused ends can be sorted with some gentle filing, I'm just not sure if the tanks are big enough, I'll get my hands on some brass tube and see how I get on. Spent the morning fabricating the missing tender door, not perfect but here's hoping it will pass muster!

[jrg1]

The gas cylinders on this Cordon were made from brass tube, with an inner tube to locate the ends.  The entire topsides were scrapped, apart from the etched ends, and the hardest part was accurately drilling out the frames.  Good Luck with the N15X-a class that has always interested me, due to their history.

[Nick Holliday]

I'd be very wary of that photo, as the background has been painted out, rather crudely compared with some efforts, and the sharp corner of the tank has been lost in the process.

This photo is from a better angle

And one of the drawings in Russell's book should give you the correct dimensions, a poor photo of which is also attached.

[Jack P]

Update:

 

Another kit..

 

 

I made a start on the frames for this DJH 0395. I'm really impressed with the quality of the whitemetal castings, doing a trial dry run, they fit together well, with minimal correction and cleaning up needed. The only thing I think might be worth doing is reinforcing the white-metal footplate with some brass strip or something like that, as it is very thin in places and I feel like it will have a tendency to bend with handling - does anyone have any tips?

 

I feel like this came out much cleaner than the P4 J class chassis. I also filed down some PCB board to fit between the frame for pickups. My next question, is how do you attach this, and whats the best way to insulate this from the chassis?

 

Why have I started another kit when I have the N15x going? The short answer is that this is the kit I should've started with, maybe even this kit is too big. I don't think that as my first foray into kitbuilding choosing a relatively big loco with older castings and plenty of cleaning up and scratch-building required was the best idea. That's not to say that it's being given up on, I am still working away at the tender, and there is plenty of research to do, parts to find. Plus I need to get used to soldering whitemetal, it will take a back seat for now, but will slowly continue being worked on.  I'm sure you (my readers) didn't ask for this, but it gives you some insight into my reasoning. 

 

I'll try and get a few snaps of the rest of the kit tonight.

 

Thanks for reading!

Edited May 31, 2018 by Jack P

[Daddyman]

I also filed down some PCB board to fit between the frame for pickups. My next question, is how do you attach this, and whats the best way to insulate this from the chassis?

Chamfer the long edges that will run parallel to the chassis frames. I always attach pcb pads to a 15 thou brass spacer soldered between the frames; the pcb is then bolted to that spacer so that it can be removed during painting and for pick-up adjustment. You'll also need to chamfer around the bolt hole so that none of the copper cladding touches the bolt as that would cause a short.

[jrg1]

Update:

 

Another kit..

 

 

I made a start on the frames for this DJH 0395. I'm really impressed with the quality of the whitemetal castings, doing a trial dry run, they fit together well, with minimal correction and cleaning up needed. The only thing I think might be worth doing is reinforcing the white-metal footplate with some brass strip or something like that, as it is very thin in places and I feel like it will have a tendency to bend with handling - does anyone have any tips?

 

I feel like this came out much cleaner than the P4 J class chassis. I also filed down some PCB board to fit between the frame for pickups. My next question, is how do you attach this, and whats the best way to insulate this from the chassis?

 

Why have I started another kit when I have the N15x going? The short answer is that this is the kit I should've started with, maybe even this kit is too big. I don't think that as my first foray into kitbuilding choosing a relatively big loco with older castings and plenty of cleaning up and scratch-building required was the best idea. That's not to say that it's being given up on, I am still working away at the tender, and there is plenty of research to do, parts to find. Plus I need to get used to soldering whitemetal, it will take a back seat for now, but will slowly continue being worked on.  I'm sure you (my readers) didn't ask for this, but it gives you some insight into my reasoning. 

 

I'll try and get a few snaps of the rest of the kit tonight.

 

Thanks for reading!

I found that DJH footplates cast in whitemetal are difficult to set straight, and look clunky.  They usually need a lot of attention to be passable.  After cleaning up, then checking and correcting for flatness, clamp the footplate to a flat surface and build it up-it should stay flat.

I have scrapped a Pacific 3-piece whitemetal footplate.  After much adjustment and fettling, it was still unacceptable, and I had etches produced for replacement.

If you use brass strip for reinforcement, tin the brass with Carr's 180 or 145 solder or equivalent, and then solder the brass to the whitemetal with Carr's 90 solder or equivalent-remembering to turn down the iron temperature!  ( And also have separate bits for different solders).

[Jack P]

 

Courtesy of DLT's thread, I found this photo explaining what you mean, very clear! thank you

 

Chamfer the long edges that will run parallel to the chassis frames. I always attach pcb pads to a 15 thou brass spacer soldered between the frames; the pcb is then bolted to that spacer so that it can be removed during painting and for pick-up adjustment. You'll also need to chamfer around the bolt hole so that none of the copper cladding touches the bolt as that would cause a short.

[DLT]

Courtesy of DLT's thread, I found this photo explaining what you mean, very clear! thank you

 

Exactly what I was about to say!

 

regarding whitemetal footplates and keeping them flat and straight during construction, I usually derive some sort of cradle/platform to sit them on.  Made from a nice flat peice of plywood, build it up to the correct height etc with mpore plywood, stripwood, card etc.  This one for a DJH U-class:

 

 

A rather morfe complicated one for the DMR Z-class kit, built up with anything that was the right thickness!

 

 

 

Hope this helps!

Cheers, Dave.

[DLT]

Here's how I did it with bits protruding below, in this case a DJH Maunsell bogie tender:

 

 

 

I actually assemble the loco while its sitting on the cradle, keeping everything flat.  When you add bits underneath you just have to drill/gouge out more slots for them.

 

Cheers, Dave.

Edited May 31, 2018 by DLT

[Jack P]

Thanks for that Dave, I have been perusing your thread. That DMR Z class looks like a brilliant kit. 

 

I'll definitely take your advice for creating a flat surface to work off, the footplate has some odd parts hanging down. I still think it needs some reinforcing underneath, although maybe once the boiler and other parts are attached it will be okay. 

 

Do you, or anyone else have any tips for soldering WM? I've read a few guides, and it seems pretty straightforward, low temp, quickly in and out and hopefully no melted castings, but is there anything else?

 

I also managed to find this photo on Mike Morant's SmugMug

 

Click me

 

Which shows the rear of an Oil burning King Arthur's tender! This is such a useful photo - I knew some of the other classes had ladders on the rear of the tender, and electric lighting, but I wasn't sure how the setup was represented. This means I have the final details I need to finish the tender off

Edited June 1, 2018 by Jack P

[jrg1]

Whitemetal soldering is easy.  If you have a temperature controlled iron, set it to around 150 degrees and see how it melts WM solder (Carr's 90 degree with red flux).  Remember the metal acts as a heat sink, and you need to consider the temperature at the iron tip-not what the read out says.

Practice on some scrap to get a feel for it.  On whitemetal components, clean the joint area well-it tarnishes quickly, and after fluxing, wipe solder the joint.

Easy, wasn't it?

[DLT]

Whitemetal soldering is easy.  If you have a temperature controlled iron, set it to around 150 degrees and see how it melts WM solder (Carr's 90 degree with red flux).  

 

Haha, as I've said before, ask ten modellers about soldering, you'll get ten different answers!

 

For whitemetal I use Carrs 70 Degree solder, and Green Label flux, with a 15watt iron.

 

Practice on some scrap to get a feel for it.  On whitemetal components, clean the joint area well-it tarnishes quickly, and after fluxing, wipe solder the joint.

 

Quite so.  The metal has to be really shiny, scrape/file the surface down to bare metal.  You can blob the solder on with the iron and let it run through with LOTS of flux.  It acts as quite a good filler as well. 

You need to be fairly quick, as the flux tarnishes, but it can be washed out with water.

As JRG has said, practice on scrap bits first, or build a "sacrificial" kit, that you can make all your mistakes on before getting down to your best kit.

The main problems that arise with any sort of soldering are usually caused by the joint not being clean enough, and/or not enough heat.  This goes for whitemetal as well, as often the parts are big lumps that need heat. 

Cheers, Dave.

Edited June 1, 2018 by DLT

[Jack P]

The main problems that arise with any sort of soldering are usually caused by the joint not being clean enough, and/or not enough heat.  This goes for whitemetal as well, as often the parts are big lumps that need heat. 

 

I've been working on getting the body of the 0395 as square and flash free as possible, so all i need to do when it comes time to solder is give them a quick scrub and give it a go! Luckily I have a 'sacrificial' SEF whitemetal E2 body that I plan to practice with.

 

I've made some progress with the N15x Tender, 

 

 

Might not look like much, but I've nearly got it to the point where I can prime it. I also found the 3 cylinder Vac tanks in the Markits catalogue, They are an excellent turned brass item, although this means I will have these WM ones as spare. That's all for now, waiting on some new tips for the iron and some WM solder before I press on. 

[DLT]

Thanks for that Dave, I have been perusing your thread. That DMR Z class looks like a brilliant kit. 

 

It is!  That was one of the best kits I've built.  Not currently available from the manufacturer I think.

[Podhunter]

It is!  That was one of the best kits I've built.  Not currently available from the manufacturer I think.

The Z class kit is listed by Phoenix Paints.

[Jack P]

It is!  That was one of the best kits I've built.  Not currently available from the manufacturer I think.

 

Phoenix Precision currently sell it, which means I have no excuse not to get one..

 

 

I tried my hand at lining today, it's not great, but its ok fora first try. It gives me a good idea of what i'm working with, now it's just practice! (Ignore the patchy paintwork - seeing how different the old Humbrol malachite is compared to the new Railmatch acrylic)

 

 

I also got a coat of primer on the N15x tender. Nothing too exciting!

[Brocp]

Hi mate,

 

Your lining attempt isn't too bad at all for a first go, and remember if on the finished product anything is too bad or you're not 100% happy with it, weathering can hide it.

 

Also regarding the two different shades of paint, if the tender had a quick patch repair, the paint might not 100% match up if it was just "thrown" on it. So that's another effect you could use if you wish.