Air / vacuum brake and how to represent/convert

[Neil90]

I have a few questions, so I'll try to be brief.

 

I have bought a 16t mineral wagon from Bachmann, appears to be without any sort of wagon code (I.e. TTA for a tank). I think this would be from the 1960s? If that is the case, would it have been vacuum braked?

 

Would it have been converted to air brake by the early 1980s? I have seen some photos of such wagons in such from early 80s but not able to say what the case is for this.

 

If so, how would I represent this on my model... What colour would any pipes be, did they have wagon codes added?

 

Thank you.

[russ p]

If it's bauxite it's vacuum,if it's grey it's unfitted

[Neil90]

If it's bauxite it's vacuum,if it's grey it's unfitted

It is grey. Would a grey one never have been fitted?

 

Would it be prototypical in the early 1980s in Highland area to have run unfitted and airbraked wagons?

 

If it would be easier to answer, what sort of, if any, unfitted or vacuum braked wagons would have been used at the time/area?

[brossard]

There's a discussion about steel minerals here:  http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock5.htm  As Russ says, grey would be unfitted.  What I didn't know is that the 9ft WB, 16T wagons that were fitted mostly had the vacuum brakes removed because of damage from colliery handling.  According to the text, these wagons would have been relegated to departmental use by the 1970s.

 

Good thing the three 7mm kits I just bought are of the unfitted flavour.

 

John

[Kylestrome]

Would it be prototypical in the early 1980s in Highland area to have run unfitted and airbraked wagons?

 

If you run unfitted or vacuum fitted wagons in an air braked train they should be place at or near the rear of the train. It was essential to have enough air braked wagons connected to the loco to ensure the train could be braked safely. How many is enough would be determined by the ruling gradient of the line or whatever regulations were in force for the service.

 

David

[Neil90]

John, that is a really good article, thanks. I've managed to do a bit more reading off the back of that.

 

It seems to be fair to say that air, vacuum and unfitted wagons ran together in the past before large block trains were commonplace.

 

Do u know if unfitted wagons were allocated Tops codes? Weathering in due course could cover up the lack of a code...

[Phil Bullock]

Try this site Neil

 

http://solihullmrc.org/wagon_tops_codes.html

 

Phil

[brossard]

That is a very useful site Phil, I have it bookmarked.  My BR era is 1962 so I have no knowledge of TOPS codes.

 

John

[Neil90]

If you run unfitted or vacuum fitted wagons in an air braked train they should be place at or near the rear of the train. It was essential to have enough air braked wagons connected to the loco to ensure the train could be braked safely. How many is enough would be determined by the ruling gradient of the line or whatever regulations were in force for the service.

 

David

Phil, another good link, thanks.

 

David, yes, I understand what you are saying. Do you know if it was a Class 37/4 for talks sake, and 3 air braked wagons followed, would vacuum braked wagons be dependent on a brake van or could the loco brake those as well, as I understand 37s to have air and vacuum braking?

[Dagworth]

Phil, another good link, thanks.

 

David, yes, I understand what you are saying. Do you know if it was a Class 37/4 for talks sake, and 3 air braked wagons followed, would vacuum braked wagons be dependent on a brake van or could the loco brake those as well, as I understand 37s to have air and vacuum braking?

For the vacuum braked wagons to be power-braked they would need to have a vacuum pipe connected to the loco via the intermediate air braked wagons. Some wagons were air braked with through vac pipes but not common.

 

Add to that the different behaviours of air and vacuum brakes and it would be unusual to have both types in operation in the same train

 

Andi

[Rivercider]

Phil, another good link, thanks.

 

David, yes, I understand what you are saying. Do you know if it was a Class 37/4 for talks sake, and 3 air braked wagons followed, would vacuum braked wagons be dependent on a brake van or could the loco brake those as well, as I understand 37s to have air and vacuum braking?

In order for the train to run fully fitted the whole train had to be piped up as Andi says, but whichever system was in use, vacuum OR air, the rear three vehicles  of a train without a brake van had to have automatic brakes in working order, (to be able to stop the rear portion if the train broke apart).

 

As you say a class 37/4 was dual braked, as was a small percentage of the wagon fleet (sealion ballast hoppers for example), there were a lot of vehicles with one brake type

but fitted with a through pipe only of the other system, eg ferry vans with TOPS code IPB were air braked and vacuum piped.

 

The freight network changed a lot very quickly at the start of the 1980s. In 1979 small local coal depots were still common in some parts and received coal in vacuum braked or unfitted 16t minerals, on the remains of the old vacuum braked network.

After 1980 unfitted freight stock was rapidly withdrawn though vacuum braked 16t  minerals types MCV or MXV continued in use until about 1984.

The air braked Speedlink network was rapidly growing at this time so between 1980 to 1984 it was possible to see a mixture partly fitted trains, fully vacuum braked trains, or air braked trains.

 

Gradually in the late 1970s/early 1980s the BR network became a 'fully fitted' railway and thereafter unfitted or partly fitted trains were prohibited except by special arrangement, Scotland became fully fitted around 1984,

 

edited - to clarify the requirement for three fitted vehicles with working brakes to be on the rear of a fully fitted train without a brake van

 

cheers

[Neil90]

Wow, two great comments there. Thanks.

 

So, in model terms, would the following be accurate/prototypical? I am thinking that loco could air brake the first 2, brake van could brake the last 2 wagons?

 

37/4, TTA, OCA, PCV, MSV, brake van.

[Kylestrome]

Wow, two great comments there. Thanks.

 

So, in model terms, would the following be accurate/prototypical? I am thinking that loco could air brake the first 2, brake van could brake the last 2 wagons?

 

37/4, TTA, OCA, PCV, MSV, brake van.

 

Try looking at some photos of freight trains, taken in the location and period you are interested in, and you will very soon get an idea of how the wagons were arranged.

 

David

 

 

(Edited to remove false info. see #15)

[Fat Controller]

There's a discussion about steel minerals here:  http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/04arstock5.htm  As Russ says, grey would be unfitted.  What I didn't know is that the 9ft WB, 16T wagons that were fitted mostly had the vacuum brakes removed because of damage from colliery handling.  According to the text, these wagons would have been relegated to departmental use by the 1970s.

 

Good thing the three 7mm kits I just bought are of the unfitted flavour.

 

John

I hadn't heard of any Min-fits being 'de-fitted'; however a lot, along with iron ore tipplers and some pig-iron wagons, had been intended to be fitted with 8-shoe vacuum braked underframes. When the problems arose, mainly concerned with unloading equipment at ports, IIRC, the wagons went into service without the brake cylinders. Almost twenty years later, the increase in stone traffic meant that the Tipplers finally received their brake cylinders.

[Dagworth]

Assuming we're still talking about the eighties, there would most likely be no brake van. This would also mean that the number of vacuum fitted wagons would be kept to a minimum, because they will effectively be unbraked. 

 

Try looking at some photos of freight trains, taken in the location and period you are interested in, and you will very soon get an idea of how the wagons were arranged. Just as in my first reply, you will find that the majority will be air braked and attached to the (air braked) loco. If any vacuum fitted wagons are present they will be tacked onto the rear of the train.

 

David

You would NEVER have unbraked wagons at the rear of a train without a brake van. It is an absolute 100% rule that the rear three wagons must have operating power brakes unless a brake van with a guard is provided

 

Andi

[Kylestrome]

You would NEVER have unbraked wagons at the rear of a train without a brake van. It is an absolute 100% rule that the rear three wagons must have operating power brakes unless a brake van with a guard is provided

 

Andi

 

Apologies for the obvious gaff! 

[Guy Rixon]

Wow, two great comments there. Thanks.

 

So, in model terms, would the following be accurate/prototypical? I am thinking that loco could air brake the first 2, brake van could brake the last 2 wagons?

 

37/4, TTA, OCA, PCV, MSV, brake van.

 

 

It's allowable, but the train will not count as fully fitted as the brakes on the PCV and the MSV will not be working. The brake van makes it legitimate as a part-fitted or unfitted working - i.e. stops the unbraked vehicles from dropping off the back if the couplings part but does not operate the brakes on the MSV and PCV.

 

Many British brake-vans had no vacuum-brake gear and on those that did, the vacuum was always supplied by the locomotive, not by the van.

 

The brake van is, however, a source of hand-braking power by virtue of the guard being in there.

[Neil90]

Try looking at some photos of freight trains, taken in the location and period you are interested in, and you will very soon get an idea of how the wagons were arranged.

 

David

 

 

(Edited to remove false info. see #15)

Flickr is a great resource for this, a lot of people have put in a lot of effort over the years.

 

I found this one interesting- 37412, 20t brake van.... Some tank wagons and I couldn't guess what the final two are. Seems like the tanks would be modern enough to be air braked, so how could this be interpreted?

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/curly42/6700623443/in/search_QM_q_IS_class+37+scotland+freight_AND_mt_IS_all_AND_w_IS_all

 

As a further aside, mention was made of last 3 wagons and brake van... Is that 3 because of the example I earlier stated or is it the last 3, be the train of 3 or 33 wagons?

[Signaller69]

As others have said a lot depends on when and where you are modelling if you want to be true to prototype, and recourse to photos is the best way forward. I note mention of the Scottish Highlands and "early 80s" so I would suggest you would be looking at mainly air braked goods stock, perhaps with the odd Vac brake service as required (or for a particular flow, such as the BRT grain "Whiskey Blues" - TOPS code PAF). I would think an air braked train with unconnected Vac brake stock running as an unfitted portion would generally be very much an exception and even then would depend on a brake van being available. However the TTA you refer to would probably originally have been a TTB (air braked/through vac piped) until the demise of Vacuum fitted stock, so could run with your vac braked wagons, as long as it is not in the rear 3 wagons. That leaves your OCA. Buy another one and you have a complete train for I saw such a service in 1983 or 1984 on the West Highland line, 2 OCA's behind a class 37, think I have a photo somewhere.

 

Regarding unfitted stock this would be fairly unlikely by this date, I doubt there were any unfitted 16T coal wagons still in revenue stock by then. Iirc the Kyle of Lochalsh line and Mallaig extension had a "fully fitted only" rule imposed (late 60s?) long before unfitted wagons disappeared elsewhere, due I believe to the long standing practice of running mixed (passenger and freight) trains with which unfitted stock was not allowed to run. This practice lasted into the 80s on the Mallaig Extension with TTA or TTB tanks for marine fuel being attached to a passenger train, though I am unsure if this applied to full wagons, or just the empties back to Fort William.

[Dagworth]

Flickr is a great resource for this, a lot of people have put in a lot of effort over the years.

 

I found this one interesting- 37412, 20t brake van.... Some tank wagons and I couldn't guess what the final two are. Seems like the tanks would be modern enough to be air braked, so how could this be interpreted?

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/curly42/6700623443/in/search_QM_q_IS_class+37+scotland+freight_AND_mt_IS_all_AND_w_IS_all

 

As a further aside, mention was made of last 3 wagons and brake van... Is that 3 because of the example I earlier stated or is it the last 3, be the train of 3 or 33 wagons?

I am pretty sure that it was always that the last three had to have operational power brakes. Blow-throughs (non braked but piped wagons) could be further into the train but could not be among the last three without a brake van

 

Andi

[Rivercider]

I am pretty sure that it was always that the last three had to have operational power brakes. Blow-throughs (non braked but piped wagons) could be further into the train but could not be among the last three without a brake van

 

Andi

Yes agreed, 3 vehicles with automatic brakes in working order were required on the rear of a fully fitted train without a brake van,

(I have amended my earlier post as the way it was written probably was not very clear).

 

(When I first started in Bristol TOPS Office in 1978 the requirement had been two vehicles with working automatic brakes on the rear, but was amended to three vehicles very soon after, -  and the maximum number of consecutive 'blow-through'/piped vehicles permitted was 3)

 

cheers

[Fat Controller]

I've been trying to think if there were ever cases where a train might be formed of both air and vac-braked stock, and have brakes functioning on both portions. The only one I've ever heard of were the trains on the Far North line, when a service conveying Freightliner traffic was run. The air-braked, vac-piped, FJB flats were at the head, with the vac-braked coaching stock behind. Both sets of vehicles were continuously-braked, and the wagons also had steam-heating pipes.

[Neil90]

That's all very useful information, thanks. I fear I'm straying off topic here, but were there other places in Scotland where large logo 37s were used with mixed freight? I'm quite keen to have mixed freight but if vac was largely non existent in Highlands in 80s, I may need to rethink.

 

My layout is just an oversize inglenook, so I'm mainly keen on small freight stock, no bigger than OCA.o

[Rivercider]

That's all very useful information, thanks. I fear I'm straying off topic here, but were there other places in Scotland where large logo 37s were used with mixed freight? I'm quite keen to have mixed freight but if vac was largely non existent in Highlands in 80s, I may need to rethink.

 

My layout is just an oversize inglenook, so I'm mainly keen on small freight stock, no bigger than OCA.o

I think you might be struggling to find something that fits the bill there.

The best chance might be an engineers train as the engineering wagon fleet was short of vacuum braked and air braked vehicles, particularly rail carriers,

and inherited a variety of former traffic wagons.

 

Here is 37114 in large logo livery with some vacuum braked engineers stock, and some vacuum braked ballast hoppers

https://www.flickr.com/photos/hoover29/11209593533/in/photolist-QFTnUA-8W8J7Q-qfvhHS-dg2SQa-8VJuSN-dvtrds-JtVsG8-qUufxE-i5y6C2-i49qsH-oCrr6v-qhBvg8-bfs5mX-dqzXSV-qhMy8z-q1m6NR-gL3g1C-jbgB8N-5qEmth-b6Rsfe-Pvut8B-R6SXki-Nz2fq9-NHL6Sz-rgexm8-rhYwcJ-qB5nBM

 

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lickeybanker/14764658646/in/photolist-J4tV8N-azjyCE-JtVsG8-ouGJC7-rAMWgW-RQstzH-bhAgtv-Diy1FH-Pd511N-zGpNDC

 

Here is a very mixed group of vacuum and air braked wagons at Crianlarich with 37175, would this have run as a train?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/5742908826/in/photolist-9KtUHq-9KtR2G-9KtXph-9KqZrn-9Kr2cr-9Ku4tQ-9Ku5ey-9Kr3CZ-9Kr7T2-9Kra7v-9Kr2Da-9KtRQm-9KraVH-9Ku1qw-9Kr8xF-9KtZrA-9Kr2Ri-9KrgQk-9KtLub-9Kr3bn-9KqXpt-9Kr8UZ-9KrcCi-9KtNUb-Quct6R-9Kr7Nn-9KtYm3-9Kr1NR-9Kr2pK-9Ku6fG-9KtSyo-9KtE2S-9Ku5Y1-9Kr1uX-9Kr7fP-9KtZEd-9KrgEv-9Kr22P-9Kr4Y2-9Kr1oM-9KtU4w-9KtRD1-9Ku5uJ-9KtUSb-9KtWxq-9KqShg-9KtWQo-9KtHuS-ciUBGm-9KrgYB

 

This whole album from Irishswissernie is worth a look for inspiration, for example vacuum braked mermaid ballast wagons are seen in one view.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/irishswissernie/albums/72157626645865977

 

While searching it reminded me that the log traffic from Scotland, and elsewhere, has used lots of wagon types over the years, mostly air braked

but after the great storm of 1987 other wagons including vac braked but air piped wagons got used.

 

cheers

[Neil90]

I think that's a good choice, luckily I have an OCA to start.

 

Would engineers trains consist of OCA, VEA, HEA sort of things?

 

 

I can see Railfreight red in some of the photos, and I think 'dutch' livery came later on. Would BR departmental green been a feature in Scottish region at the time? I can't find any photographs which are conclusive.