So exactly what did BR Electric Blue look like?

[cctransuk]

Have a look at https://www.flickr.com/photos/93456400@N04/15734898347/in/album-72157648664106321/ .

 

Now I know all about screen adjustment, and not trusting what you see - but the centre locomotive in this group of three is definitely not the same colour as the other two.

 

Received knowledge is that all of the LMR 25kv electric locos; (the ALs); were painted Electric Blue - but it would seem that the various manufacturers interpreted this with some degree of approximation !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Taigatrommel]

I've seen it written, though for the life of me, I can't remember where, that AL6s were actually BR corporate blue even before the change to double arrows.  That doesn't account for the AL2s different colour in that picture though.  However, different methods of applying paint and gloss, satin or matt finishes can result in quite different apparent shades even with the same nominal colour paint.

[peter220950]

John,

 

If you look closely at the front of the third loco, and the panel above the cab window of the first, they are the same shade as the one in the middle.

 

Similarly if you scroll through the photos two further to the right you will find 3050 now looking the same as 3028, so I suspect, however improbable it may seem, that they are actually the same colour!

 

Peter

[Metr0Land]

. (Edit see below)

Edited March 26, 2017 by Metr0Land

[Metr0Land]

As peter220950 says they may well be the same colours. I'm wondering if there's a canopy or something else casting a shadow as E3050 is now lighter and the loco on the right is darker (or even the use of flash on a dull day?)

BR. Metropolitan-Vickers and Beyer, Peacock & Co. Ltd. Class "AL2" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3050. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

 

BR. English Electric Vulcan Foundry. Class "AL3" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3028. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

Edited March 26, 2017 by Metr0Land

[Clive Mortimore]

I've seen it written, though for the life of me, I can't remember where, that AL6s were actually BR corporate blue even before the change to double arrows.  That doesn't account for the AL2s different colour in that picture though.  However, different methods of applying paint and gloss, satin or matt finishes can result in quite different apparent shades even with the same nominal colour paint.

Hi Rich

 

Brain Haresnape reported in July (I think) 1965 Modern Railways that the new AL6 locomotives were being delivered in BR new blue colour, so were never Electric Blue. A few of the English Electric built locos ran for a short time without yellow panels making them the only locos in BR Corporate Blue to do so.  

 

Looking at the photos that Metro has shared could the variation be due to the lighting on the day, the film used and the way the slide has aged? I like seeing colour photos from the 60s as it is my era of modelling interest but I would never rely on them as a true colour reference but as a guide.

 

Edit, just to add that with older photos sometimes things that are supposed to be the same colour but appear different, sometimes might be different.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Clive Mortimore

[frobisher]

Looking at the photos that Metro has shared could the variation be due to the lighting on the day, the film used and the way the slide has aged? I like seeing colour photos from the 60s as it is my era of modelling interest but I would never rely on them as a true colour reference but as a guide.

Also, the colour reproduction of a lot of film stock that was in use wasn't exactly great.

[28XX]

BR electric blue had no hint of turqoiseness about it. The blue of a clear sky on a fine day early in the year. Like today actually. (March 26).

[298]

I can't ever remember seeing a photo that showed any differences between the AL1-AL5s, either b/w or colour (although there were differences due to the photographic film used at the time and variations in lighting, but a b/w photo featuring a Roarer and a brand new 86 show how much lighter the older loco was.

[The Stationmaster]

There is definitely something adrift with the colour balance on some pictures on that thread - the "electric Blue' on the ac locos is well off and D869 at Swindon in undercoat is also way off the actual shade of green Swindon used for undercoat.

 

And I can't recall, although it is over 50 years ago of course, any variation between classes in the shade of the 'electric blue' used on the original LMR a.c. electric locos (i.e. pre AL6) - and I saw examples of most of the original classes when they were fairly new.

[D1059]

 

Looking at the photos that Metro has shared could the variation be due to the lighting on the day, the film used and the way the slide has aged? I like seeing colour photos from the 60s as it is my era of modelling interest but I would never rely on them as a true colour reference but as a guide.

 

 

 

Add onto the comments above the fact that the picture has been scanned into a digital format. Since that's a digital conversion of an analog (ie chemical) process it introduces another layer of complexity. Getting the colour balance right on a scanned image can be very difficult, in fact nigh on impossible in some cases. Trust me, I've been doing enough of it for the last nearly 20 years and I'm still learning new techniques and tricks

[Davey]

I saw all the original AL1 to AL5 locomotives in original Electric Blue livery, and from memory there was no discernible difference colourwise between any of them.

 

Davey

[Evertrainz]

 

 

Thoughts? I am still playing around with it and from what I've seen it needs a bit more of the greenish tinge that can be seen on BR Blue shades.

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Pandora]

I've seen it written, though for the life of me, I can't remember where, that AL6s were actually BR corporate blue even before the change to double arrows.  That doesn't account for the AL2s different colour in that picture though.  However, different methods of applying paint and gloss, satin or matt finishes can result in quite different apparent shades even with the same nominal colour paint.

Here is link to a slide-show of  new  AL6 locos in electric blue with  AL1 -AL5 classes,  permitting a direct comparison without  misgivings of rendition of colours by our monitors and film stock.

 

I am intrigued to see that the buffer beams of the AL6 are also in electric blue and not red

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/slideshow

 

 

E3172 E3059 1966-05-01 Willesden DED:

 

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/e428ee7c

Edited May 23, 2017 by Pandora

[Titan]

Rather than comparing locos, it might be better to compare to the rolling stock. The blue on these coaches looks a lot darker than the 86 hauling it. Same film, Same lighting, no shadows etc.

 

[The Johnster]

But the blue on the third coach is distincly lighter than that of those either side of it, and the Mk2s behind the restaurant car are darker again. being newer and less faded as is shown by their shiny roofs.  TBH, I'd be hard put to want to assert anything connected with a difference in colour between coaches and loco from this picture, fine study of 1A59 though it is, as it features a train rounding a curve so the light is actually striking each vehicle at a different angle.  The loco is in Rail Blue, not Electric Blue, as all AL6s were, and I am unable to definitively perceive a difference in the colour between it and the coaches; indeed, the only difference would be down to weathering or fading as the livery of both is the same colour, Rail 'Monastral' Blue.

 

Electric Blue was applied to classes AL1 to 5, and I believe to one or two of the Manchester-Sheffield EM2 Co-Cos as well.  AFAIK no emu stock ever appeared in it, the Glasgow area trains being in a lined Caledonian Blue, and the AM10s in Rail Blue from new.  

[stovepipe]

Try Hue 135 Sat 126 Lum 100.

 

This is from the Digital Traction colour guides.

[hayfield]

Living close to the west coast main line during that period I loved the light shade of blue of the first electrics, rather than the darker corporate blue of later years.

 

My memory is that it was not quite sky blue, I guess though the colour overtime may have lightened due to the sun bleaching it

 

A quick call to Phoenix paints may result in the answer you require

[Pandora]

As peter220950 says they may well be the same colours. I'm wondering if there's a canopy or something else casting a shadow as E3050 is now lighter and the loco on the right is darker (or even the use of flash on a dull day?)

 

BR. Metropolitan-Vickers and Beyer, Peacock & Co. Ltd. Class "AL2" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3050. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

 

BR. English Electric Vulcan Foundry. Class "AL3" Bo-Bo Electric locomotive No. E3028. by Ron Bowyer, on Flickr

 

The darker shade of blue for E3050 in the lower shot may be due to photographic "vignetting".  Vignetting is an undesirable effect where the corners of the negative are under-exposed  to light compared to the central "hotspot"  of the negative. Bear in mind , early 1960s  colour film was slow,  very low ASA numbers, such as 25,   therefore very prone to under exposure. There are many reasons for vignetting, the lens, camera body etc, here is a wikipaedia link fora better explanation of  vignetting

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vignetting

Edited May 24, 2017 by Pandora

[DCB]

40 years ago there was the same discussion about Caledonian Blue, and the fact is blues change with the light and are sods to match.   As the guy who re sprayed the tailgate on my sons metallic blue Rover will testify.   As with most things model railway a consistent colour across different models in the same livery give or take a few shades of weathering is the optimum.  It is only in the preservation era that wide disceprances in hue have become commonplace.
 

[Pandora]

40 years ago there was the same discussion about Caledonian Blue, and the fact is blues change with the light and are sods to match.   As the guy who re sprayed the tailgate on my sons metallic blue Rover will testify.   As with most things model railway a consistent colour across different models in the same livery give or take a few shades of weathering is the optimum.  It is only in the preservation era that wide disceprances in hue have become commonplace.

 

Agreed, but the question for me  is to find an answer to the question of   did  the AL6 locomotives E3100 -99,  wear the  attractive electric blue paint or were they all delivered in the  rail blue paint as certain posters maintain.  From the photographic evidence I believe  at least some of the AL6 locos wore electric blue and I hope to paint up a few spare Hornby bodies in the white cabs/ small yellow panels electric blue livery

Edited May 24, 2017 by Pandora

[Titan]

But the blue on the third coach is distincly lighter than that of those either side of it, and the Mk2s behind the restaurant car are darker again. being newer and less faded as is shown by their shiny roofs.  TBH, I'd be hard put to want to assert anything connected with a difference in colour between coaches and loco from this picture, fine study of 1A59 though it is, as it features a train rounding a curve so the light is actually striking each vehicle at a different angle.  The loco is in Rail Blue, not Electric Blue, as all AL6s were, and I am unable to definitively perceive a difference in the colour between it and the coaches; indeed, the only difference would be down to weathering or fading as the livery of both is the same colour, Rail 'Monastral' Blue.

 

Electric Blue was applied to classes AL1 to 5, and I believe to one or two of the Manchester-Sheffield EM2 Co-Cos as well.  AFAIK no emu stock ever appeared in it, the Glasgow area trains being in a lined Caledonian Blue, and the AM10s in Rail Blue from new.  

 

But all of the coaches, even the lighter ones, are still darker than the loco. If you can post a picture of a SYP AL6 where even just one of the coaches blue is as light as the loco you might be a little more convincing...

[Pandora]

The pronounced contrast between the blue of the locomotive E3140 and the coaching stock is the deciding factor for me, electric blue it is!

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h2eb0da29

 

Note E3140,  the last of the batch erected at Doncaster Plant,   I have a B&W copy of the works photographers record of E3140 with office staff posed for the classic staff groupshot, presumably in the paintshop. the loco has the SYP from new   

[stewartingram]

Years ago I picked up a Triang AL1 which was incomplete. I revived it with spares from stock and repainted it as an early example. Must have been done in the early '80s I guess. To paint it, I used a rattlecan, it was a blue from the Ford range, and was quoted as a close match in the magazines of the time. I've just looked in the man cave but found I threw the can away some time ago.

 

Stewart

[New Haven Neil]

The pronounced contrast between the blue of the locomotive E3140 and the coaching stock is the deciding factor for me, electric blue it is!

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/h428EE7C#h2eb0da29

 

Note E3140,  the last of the batch erected at Doncaster Plant,   I have a B&W copy of the works photographers record of E3140 with office staff posed for the classic staff groupshot, presumably in the paintshop. the loco has the SYP from new   

 

This one

proves it too, I think.

 

Photo 30 if the link doesn't take you straight there.

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p366027746/slideshow#h45dd2f0c