Third-Rail EMU Photos

Claude_Dreyfus · February 4

I have seen the proposed changes timetable, and there isnlt much there to 'improve' the service. There are a few things would immediately improve the service (at least from an Arun Valley perspective) however.

A later departure from VIC along the Arun valley (the current 22:30ish departure is not much use). People want to use the trains, but if the service isn't there (theatre, concerts etc, normally don't finish in time to get to VIC for the last train of the day), they're not much use. People drive to Horsham or even across to Haslemere to get the later services (good I suppose for car park revenues).
The proposed timetable changes make the Portsmouth service much slower, so renders the splits at Horsham rather pointless. There was a lot of anger when Southern introduced this from passengers along the Arun Valley, removing the direct Chichester service from the Arun Valley stations, as well as making the journey to London longer as there is an additional wait at Horsham for the 'fast' section to arrive/depart. It would be better for the passenger to return the Bognor split back to Barnham. Naïve I know, but the degradation in service was not reflected in the ticket prices from our local station...
Reinstate the well patronised London Bridge directs. The justification for their withdrawal was straight out of the Beaching sleight of hand play-book. Withdraw the later afternoon service and then say the service isn't used. Guess what, the 18:05 was withdrawn 'due to Covid' and the 17:05 was retained. A 17:05 departure from London Bridge may work for Southern managers and Civil Servants, but was pretty useless for those who actually do a day's work in the city. The trains to London Bridge are now very well patronised, with large numbers of passengers joining the Thameslink services to get to the city. There is certainly a case to reinstate this, and other LBG directs.

I know Southern have no intention of doing any of these things - they spent years trying to dump the London Bridge directs, so I don't expect them to return, and given the rather pathetic excuses given not to run a later train (engineering works was one (do they have engineering works every night on the Arun Valley? Of course they don't...)), that ain't going to happen either.

Gwiwer · February 4

4 hours ago, John M Upton said:

The plan for the West Coast which went out to consultation last year and will probably happen later this year is detailed here:

https://www.southernrailway.com/-/media/goahead/gtr-all-shared-pdfs-and-documents/timetable-consultation-2023/west-coastway-tt-wo-graphics.pdf

The comparison journey times between current and proposed are dreadful. Most journeys will take somewhat longer, some significantly longer, many which are possible now will require a change of train and at best some will be up to 4 minutes quicker.

There is still no service offered between Arundel and Littlehampton which has been a bone of contention for years. The road is clogged and the presence of Lyminster level crossing half-way along it does nothing to help.

It is not beyond the bounds of possibility to divert one of the Arun Valley stopping portions to Littlehampton instead of Bognor Regis. Does Barnham - Bognor really justify four-an-hour when the entire Arun Valley, Horsham and Crawley cannot access Littlehampton at all without an awkward (and not step-free) change at Ford?

I really do thing the Powers That Be have lost their way with the Sussex coast. East of Brighton has improved a little. West of Brighton is well and truly down the pan.

phil_sutters · February 6

On 04/02/2024 at 15:49, John M Upton said:

Ssshh, they're sleeping....

Two in the morning down Littlehampton shed - Consecutive numbers too!

DMUs not EMUs - but consecutive numbers going opposite ways on the Salisbury - Romsey route.

Edited February 6 by phil_sutters

The Lurker · February 6

On 04/02/2024 at 20:16, Gwiwer said:

And the ongoing absence of anything much beyond an all-stations service.

London - Worthing now takes around 15 minutes longer than it did by steam train 100 years ago.

Brighton - Portsmouth is a logical line of desire and should support a fast service calling only at the main towns.

If it is any consolation London Bridge to Sidcup takes the same time as it did in the 1870’s - per the timetable in the Middleton Press book for the Dartford loop!

phil_sutters · February 7

East Coastway seems to have increased its capacity. For the last two days Seaford has been getting 2x3 car 377s, for at least some of its turns. I have seen pairs four times in the last two days.

Edited February 7 by phil_sutters

John M Upton · February 7

Monday/Tuesday were the last two days of the reduced overtime ban timetable which had some odd formations although I am pretty sure there were more trains running this time than the last OT ban week which is good to see.

Darius43 · February 9

Early morning trains at West Worthing.

Cheers

Darius

John M Upton · February 19

Not very exciting but standard fare on the Horsham to Victoria via Dorking circuit seen here at Sutton:

Southern Class 377/6 377619 Sutton 19/2/24

jbqfc · February 19

12/02/24

377507 Denmark hill

465181

387152

John

Siberian Snooper · February 19

2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

Not very exciting but standard fare on the Horsham to Victoria via Dorking circuit seen here at Sutton:

Have the fast trains to Victoria, via Dorking and Sutton, been reinstated? The last time I used a train from or to London, the Dorking route was peak time stoppers, all the fast trains were via Gatwick.

John M Upton · February 19

2 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Have the fast trains to Victoria, via Dorking and Sutton, been reinstated? The last time I used a train from or to London, the Dorking route was peak time stoppers, all the fast trains were via Gatwick.

Sadly not, the Horsham/Vic via Dorking is still an hourly stops everywhere except Battersea Park service, they have even put the Ewell East stop back in recently and no service south of Dorking after about ten o'clock on a Saturday night and nothing on a Sunday, a criminal waste of a good alternative route between the Sussex Coast and London rather than all that pratting about through Gatwick Airport!!!

Edited February 19 by John M Upton

SR71 · February 20

Seems someone has been taking your suggestions from a few pages back on board;

BBC News - Southern to double services on some routes in Sussex and Hampshire
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-68345915

DY444 · February 20

18 hours ago, Siberian Snooper said:

Have the fast trains to Victoria, via Dorking and Sutton, been reinstated? The last time I used a train from or to London, the Dorking route was peak time stoppers, all the fast trains were via Gatwick.

Sadly not, they are now 33 minutes Sutton to Victoria. The only "fast" trains from Sutton to London are the Epsom - London Bridge services which will "speed" you to London a whole 1 minute faster in 32 minutes.

I think there is potentially a BML capacity case for the Bognor service to be re-routed this way as it was prior to 1983 but it won't happen as Southern seems as obsessed as the post 1984 SR was with everything having to serve Gatwick.

Edited February 20 by DY444

John M Upton · February 20

3 hours ago, SR71 said:

Seems someone has been taking your suggestions from a few pages back on board;

BBC News - Southern to double services on some routes in Sussex and Hampshire
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-68345915

The four trains an hour between Worthing and Brighton is exactly what it was pre Covid, Southampton loses all direct trains to/from Gatwick and Victoria, no Bognor - Littlehampton direct any more (and only one an hour direct from Brighton/Chichester to Littlehampton) and one of the Victoria/Portsmouth Harbour's is ALL stops between Barnham and Portsmouth, except Bedhampton which is being effectively abandoned to SWR only.

Gwiwer · February 20

Passengers will not return in meaningful numbers while services are as slow as they are.

Southern’s changes will offset a return to some previous headways with more stops and slower journeys. A few will be very slightly quicker. Some journeys which now require a change of trains will no longer do so, and vice versa.

In the 1960s the west coastal route out of Brighton had four trains an hour. Two were all stations to West Worthing with one extended all stations to Littlehampton. A third served just Hove, Shoreham and Worthing before stopping at all stations to Portsmouth Harbour. The fourth served Hove, Portslade, Shoreham, Lancing, Worthing, Barnham, Chichester, Havant, Fratton and both Portsmouth stations.

An hourly Victoria - Littlehampton service called only at East Croydon, Haywards Heath, Hove, Shoreham, Worthing and all to Littlehampton.

Farther west an hourly semi-fast ran Victoria, East Croydon, Redhill, Gatwick, Three Bridges and all stations to Bognor Regis via Horsham and Littlehampton. The fast service, also hourly, ran Victoria, Sutton, Dorking, Horsham, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham, Chichester, Emsworth, Havant, Fratton and the Portsmouths.

Today the Littlehampton via Hove service is slower than it was before the 1930s electrifications due to it becoming a most-stops service south of Haywards Heath. It is however half-hourly at most times except Sundays. There is no direct service between the Arun Valley route and Littlehampton, no direct service serving all stations along the coast and, until the new timetable commences, only two trains an hour reach Brighton from points west of Hove; the London trains offer connections with a shuttle which adds up to 10 minutes to journeys and can involve a change of platforms.

Southern really has to address some of the shortcomings of the present timetable. Gatwick Airport and Clapham Junction have increased greatly in importance but surely not every train has to serve Hassocks or Preston Park?

The all stations to Chichester via Littlehampton service adds at least 20 minutes to a trip between Angmering and Ford. Perhaps better to advertise it as two separate services. There is untapped demand waiting to travel between Crawley, Horsham, Arundel and Littlehampton all of which trips require a time-consuming change at (not step-free) Ford or even more time via Barnham (which is permitted under ticketing easements).

A semi-fast Brighton - Portsmouth service should do well and should not require a change of train. Some changes would be made at Havant where the next train might be an SWR one. Some tickets are “Southern only”. I see unwitting passengers being caught out here.

There is no perfect solution. But I do feel that much more attractive services need to be offered to win people back to rail.

Northmoor · February 20

6 hours ago, John M Upton said:

The four trains an hour between Worthing and Brighton is exactly what it was pre Covid, Southampton loses all direct trains to/from Gatwick and Victoria, no Bognor - Littlehampton direct any more (and only one an hour direct from Brighton/Chichester to Littlehampton) and one of the Victoria/Portsmouth Harbour's is ALL stops between Barnham and Portsmouth, except Bedhampton which is being effectively abandoned to SWR only.

If you want to achieve modal shift amongst airport staff and customers - one of the major justifications for diverting Crossrail services into Heathrow - then that is a pretty stupid service change. Southampton area passengers can easily get to their local airport, but Bournemouth isn't convenient for rail and neither is Heathrow from that direction.

phil-b259 · February 20

8 hours ago, DY444 said:

I think there is potentially a BML capacity case for the Bognor service to be re-routed this way as it was prior to 1983 but it won't happen as Southern seems as obsessed as the post 1984 SR was with everything having to serve Gatwick.

Given the insane crush seen on many services that call at Gatwick there are very good reasons to maximise the number of services via the airport!

Not that long ago I had to attend some training in Croydon and the incoming Thameslink was already well filled at Three Bridges and turned into a Tube train crush at Gatwick as large numbers of air travellers squeezed themselves on board.

phil-b259 · February 20

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Today the Littlehampton via Hove service is slower than it was before the 1930s electrifications due to it becoming a most-stops service south of Haywards Heath.

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Southern really has to address some of the shortcomings of the present timetable. Gatwick Airport and Clapham Junction have increased greatly in importance but surely not every train has to serve Hassocks or Preston Park?

This is largely because following the expansion of the Thameslink* the Littlehampton train forms the only direct service to Victoria from these stations...

Yes I know you can in theory change at Gatwick or East Croydon but both stations tend to be overgrowded and are frequently trains are fully loaded with no seats.

* The expansion of Thameslink has also reduced the number of paths available for other services south of Gatwick

Edited February 20 by phil-b259

phil-b259 · February 20

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

If you want to achieve modal shift amongst airport staff and customers - one of the major justifications for diverting Crossrail services into Heathrow - then that is a pretty stupid service change.

Question is just exactly how many people are making that particular journey? I have pointed out many times that the number of people who make the Brighton - Bedford or Brighton - Cambridge trip are tiny yet it still makes sense to run them from a rolling stock utilisation and distribution of travellers over a number of Central London stations perspective.

Although NSE did make a lot of noise about how the service made getting to Gatwick easier when the first introduced it, that rather overlooks that the real reason the service existed in the first place is it was a bolt on to something that was being provided for other purposes (i.e. services to Chichester / Portmouth).

Another thing to throw into the mix is that since the DfT instructed Southern to ditch the 455 fleet with no replacements and with ongoing issues with drivers (again DfT driven) the new service pattern might well result in a more reliable service overall