Tornado Breaks the ton.

[ben pez]

Impressive run from tornado & its crew,wonder what speed it could get to if it hadnt been dragging eight coaches & a diesel?.....

[MarkC]

Impressive run from tornado & its crew,wonder what speed it could get to if it hadnt been dragging eight coaches & a diesel?.....

The diesel was left behind at Newcastle - it was only on the back northbound, as the train was reversed at Newcastle by using the triangular junction at the south end of the KE Bridge. The diesel pulled the train into Newcastle, then was hooked off).

 

Of course, years ago reversal would have been achieved by arriving at Newcastle via the High Level Bridge & departing via the KE - but the High Level Bridge is subject to weight restrictions these days, I believe. When was the last steam across it, and what was the locomotive? Anyone know?

[Mallard60022]

Yes but how fast ?

 

The person you need to think about is the fireman

There were two firemen on the testing runs. It is not planned for the loco to run consistently at high speed 'in service'. It is planned for it to clear certain sections in a quicker time.

Phil

[PhilH]

There were two firemen on the testing runs. It is not planned for the loco to run consistently at high speed 'in service'. It is planned for it to clear certain sections in a quicker time.

Phil

Think there was only one official fireman on the run, Dave Proctor. I don't doubt that Jim Smith, the TI, helped bale it in as well as would have the owner's rep if asked....but, as I say, only one official fireman.

[Pacific231G]

Think there was only one official fireman on the run, Dave Proctor. I don't doubt that Jim Smith, the TI, helped bale it in as well as would have the owner's rep if asked....but, as I say, only one official fireman.

I could be wrong but, since the official and practical responsibilities of the fireman on a steam loco go way beyond shovelling coal into the firebox, there can presumably  only be one official fireman on duty at any time. That doesn't mean they can't be assisted by a stoker but, whatever you called them, that person wouldn't be responsible as fireman.

 

When steam locos were In normal revenue service it would have been expensive to require a third employee on the footplate so, for the largest locos on long runs (so probably not in Britain), having a mechanical stoker would have made economic sense. That surely wouldnt apply in the same way to a heritage operation where simply having an extra pair of trained hands to shovel coal would be the sensible option.   

[PhilH]

This was a DBC crewed job. They crew their locos driver, fireman and a traction inspector. The TI is usually a retired driver, the other two are DBC drivers, as in freight drivers, who have received training on steam locos and become part of the steam pool. The other person on the footplate is the owner's rep who is responsible for monitoring the locomotive functions and hopefully give advice in the event of a malfunction of any of these. He should have no input into the running of the train or how the crew go about their duties apart from very tactful reminders if he thinks, for instance, that the water level is a bit lower than he would like.

 

You do get asked, as an owner's rep, to help the fireman out on occasion but this is not as outlined above a primary task...indeed there is a school of thought which says that if you are firing an engine then you are not carrying out your monitoring duties correctly. The TI will very often have a go firing, some do, some don't, again this is not what they are on the footplate for.

 

As I said before I don't doubt that they all had a go on the shovel, knowing Mr. Proctor, good fireman that he is, I'm sure he would have asked for help sooner rather than later.

[jjb1970]

When you get onto stuff like oil firing and mechanical stoking you get into the thorny issue of whether the locomotive should be a replica (or a preserved example) of the locomotive as it ran in service, or should it be developed into something better? Companies like Eagle Engineering have found a lucrative niche re-engineering classic cars with modern electrical systems, anti-lock brakes, suspension etc so that the car retains it's classic looks but is hugely improved under the skin. There is an argument that a locomotive like Tornado could be made better by applying better technology (included but not limited to eliminating manual firing) but it would compromise it's claims to be a replica A1. I've no doubt at all you could provide a mechanical fuel feed system for solid fuel, it'd cost though and it'd still be very dirty. This is why I'd much rather one of these new build groups built a 5AT rather than just copying old designs, but that's just me. I'm a bit of a tree hugger and think emissions from steam locomotives were filthy and wouldn't be acceptable today but even as a tree hugger I think limited preserved running is acceptable.

[jjb1970]

Just so long as VW don't decide to design a steam locomotive the emissions issue shouldn't become too much of a problem.

[Liam]

Just so long as VW don't decide to design a steam locomotive the emissions issue shouldn't become too much of a problem.

And if they were to let's hope that it won't be fitted with a Defender interior.

[tomparryharry]

When you get onto stuff like oil firing and mechanical stoking you get into the thorny issue of whether the locomotive should be a replica (or a preserved example) of the locomotive as it ran in service, or should it be developed into something better? Companies like Eagle Engineering have found a lucrative niche re-engineering classic cars with modern electrical systems, anti-lock brakes, suspension etc so that the car retains it's classic looks but is hugely improved under the skin. There is an argument that a locomotive like Tornado could be made better by applying better technology (included but not limited to eliminating manual firing) but it would compromise it's claims to be a replica A1. I've no doubt at all you could provide a mechanical fuel feed system for solid fuel, it'd cost though and it'd still be very dirty. This is why I'd much rather one of these new build groups built a 5AT rather than just copying old designs, but that's just me. I'm a bit of a tree hugger and think emissions from steam locomotives were filthy and wouldn't be acceptable today but even as a tree hugger I think limited preserved running is acceptable.

Preservation is a 'snapshot' of any artefact during it's lifetime. You could take a packet of sewing needles. Number 1 is in the packet. Number 2 is in the act of being threaded. Number 3 is in the act of button sewing. Number 4 is the completed action, and so on. You could say that Railway preservation is a bit like that. 71000 doesn't run with the Swindon ashpan, which by all accounts was a dogs breakfast. It runs with the more enlightened variety. The same can be said for any mainline registered locomotive. It's what makes the whole 'train' work, that is important. Limited preserved runs are quickly becoming the rare item, as paths are taken by commercial railway interests, and if you want to run, you run at a safe, but far higher speed. Putting on a second fireman will increase the running fee. The A1 guys are showing the way forward, and people should note that what is now unique, will in the near future, become the norm.

 

That said, an oil fired loco is far less liable to start a lineside fire......

 

Ian

[russ p]

The traction inspector on that run was Jim Smith who has been an inspector since the late 80s but is part time nowadays

[PhilH]

Yep, here he is on a run I did with him last summer.

 

 

[russ p]

Jim's a top bloke I've known him for over thirty years and he's hardly changed

[Zomboid]

To run on the main line locos are full of stuff that they wouldn't have had before 1967. If that means a different method of heating the water as well as the OTMR etc, then if that's the way to achieve the necessary speeds then so be it.

Tornado is obviously a unique case, but isn't it also built using 21st century engineering anyhow? I'm pretty sure it was originally going to be oil fired, and is built in a way to make a conversion relatively simple.

I think that worrying about and retainingwhat they did before withdrawal is OK for conservation, but if it's been steamed since BR withdrew it then those rules don't apply, as it's likely to have had loads of changes made to get it running in the first place.

[Liam]

Perhaps King Edward II can achieve a similar feat when it returns from overhaul later this year.

 

I don't think oil firing would help much. It might be more complicated than coal firing.

[stewartingram]

I wonder if they have thought of a pantograph on the cab and a kettle element in the firebox?    

 

Stewart

[PatB]

I wonder if they have thought of a pantograph on the cab and a kettle element in the firebox?

 

Stewart

It's been done, at least on a shunter, in Europe.

[Trainshed Terry]

Silly Question?

 

Did anybody time how long it took "Tornado" to reach the magic 100mph, and dose it stack up to modern traction.

 

Terry.

[Liam]

Silly Question?

 

Did anybody time how long it took "Tornado" to reach the magic 100mph, and dose it stack up to modern traction.

 

Terry.

If I remember correctly it was somewhere between Thirsk and Darlington, so if it started at Doncaster then at least half an hour

[chris p bacon]

If I remember correctly it was somewhere between Thirsk and Darlington, so if it started at Doncaster then at least half an hour

If it managed to get between Thirsk & Darlington in 30 minutes from Doncaster I bet it was doing a bit more than a ton. 

[Zomboid]

They may not have done a 0-100 test with it, and on the northbound run at least the 67 may have given it a shove to get to 90/100.

It's bound to be slower from 75-90 than most other passenger trains that can get to 90, but the fact that it can get there at all means it'll eat considerably fewer paths. And maybe we'll have to come I terms with the idea that if we want to ride steam trains on the primary main lines, a diesel shove is going to be part of the deal. Or maybe not, I don't know...

[Edwin_m]

The bit from Doncaster to York is largely irrelevant to the time taken to get to 100mph, given the severe speed restriction either through York station or round the avoiding lines. 

[Gary H]

They may not have done a 0-100 test with it, and on the northbound run at least the 67 may have given it a shove to get to 90/100.

It's bound to be slower from 75-90 than most other passenger trains that can get to 90, but the fact that it can get there at all means it'll eat considerably fewer paths. And maybe we'll have to come I terms with the idea that if we want to ride steam trains on the primary main lines, a diesel shove is going to be part of the deal. Or maybe not, I don't know...

Very true.

Once it gets away, adhesion and tractive effort become less of an issue. You need horsepower to get high speeds!

I would think that in HP terms with the A1, you would looking at the diesel equivalent of a Class 47 or a smidge under in horse power terms.

Has the loco had a dynamometer car behind it to measure its power? That's if such a thing still exists.

[t-b-g]

Very true.

Once it gets away, adhesion and tractive effort become less of an issue. You need horsepower to get high speeds!

I would think that in HP terms with the A1, you would looking at the diesel equivalent of a Class 47 or a smidge under in horse power terms.

Has the loco had a dynamometer car behind it to measure its power? That's if such a thing still exists.

 

There will be people on here much better qualified than I am to answer those questions but I have a recollection of hearing of an A1 on test that had a drawbar horsepower of around 3,000 measured for a short while. That was measured starting a heavy train from a stand. A diesel loco which has a quoted horsepower doesn't, as far as I know, have that full hp available for hauling trains as some of it is needed to move the loco and to power electrics etc. O S Nock once calculated that the Deltics, with engines producing 3,300hp actually had a drawbar hp available for hauling trains of around 2,750.

 

I don't know if Tornado has been measured but it is more powerful than the original A1s due to the change in boiler pressure and cylinder size.

 

So Tornado is probably nearer a Deltic than a Class 47 in short bursts. The ability to sustain that output over a long period is another matter altogether which is why high steam power outputs are usually over a short time period.

[Zomboid]

The power (well, tractive effort really) available at 75 may be a different story. I know that with electric transmission the force a motor can exert tends to reduce at higher speeds, but I don't know about steam engines.