S7 scratch building

[magmouse]

Thanks @wagonman for that photo - very helpful. I am building up a collection of info on these vans for when I build my own model. I have found that of the earlier wooden underframe type, some have diagonals one way, and some the other, so it seems that change didn’t simply coincide with the change in underframe construction.
 

It’s also worth noting that wagonman’s photo shows, I think, the ‘bulb’ section underframe, with the lower flange of the solebar smaller than the upper flange. This is different to the later design I gave the dimensions for earlier in the thread.

 

Trying to follow all these design changes, with limited information, is a bit of a nightmare…

 

Nick.

 

Update 24 Feb 2022: there is a discussion here about GWR 2- and 3-plank wagons, including reference to the source of a drawing showing the bulb solebar in cross-section. The drawing is in The Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers 1884, available online (plate 68, which is right at the back of the document): https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/n727/mode/2up

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by magmouse
Updated information

[airnimal]

Richard,  thank you for the photograph which is very helpful.  Len Tavender has 2 drawings in his railway equipment drawings book of these vans, one iron frame and one wooden underframe.  The iron frame one looks identical to your photograph so I'm hoping that if I model a van using this I won't be too far out. 

I have cut out the basic body of 60 thou and scribed with my usual Olfa cutter. I have angled the blade to make the cut with a more pronounced groove than I normally do. I am not sure this will be any better but it does make the line wider.  Until I get around to painting this I will not sure if this is a improvement or not. Trying to photograph the sides in white plastic is not easy. I have cut the sides into 3 pieces and stuck the middle section onto a backing of 20 thou because the door part is stood  proud of the body. 

 

Nick, if what you say about the top and bottom of the frame being slightly different it would be helpful if you had dimensions that showed the amount needed to be removed from the bottom part.

Can you tell me about the bump stops above the axleboxes ? Are they solid wood and to the right of the door on the frame there is a small rod of some sort. Do you know what it is or for please. Any help is gratefully received because my knowledge of things GWR is very limited. I have a couple of books on GWR matters so I will look what the rivets and bolts are like on similar wagons.  

[magmouse]

I don’t have dimensions of the ‘bulb’ style solebars, unfortunately. Looking at the photo @wagonman posted, the bottom part doesn’t stick out much, and also has a curved connection to the vertical part, not a sharp corner.

 

The bump stops are I think wooden - they seem to be the same design as used on earlier wooden framed wagons. Later they are replaced by metal stops, shaped like an upside down top hat.

 

Regarding the ‘rod’ thing - I am not sure what you are referring to? The tall rod just to the right of the centre line on the door is the latch mechanism. Or did you mean something else?
 

Here are a couple of links to more info about these vans, which may also be of use, if you haven’t seen them already:

 

Lot numbers, wagon number and related info here:

 

And here:

 

Nick.

[airnimal]

I sat and looked at my progress last night and was totally unsatisfied with my work. I find it harder to make of a model that I don't have much interest in. I don't have any GWR models so in building this van it hasn't my usual enthusiasm.

So I have started again and cut the ends out and chamfer the edges to make the right angle joins under the corner frames. All the overhang will be cut back later. 

[airnimal]

Try as I might to build this van I am admitting defeat.  There are only so many rejects I can muster before I end going completely mad.  I can still rescue the underframe for something else that hopefully won't be as taxing. The ratio between scrap and models completed is becoming unacceptable. 

[Compound2632]

What I do when faced with this sort of frustration is back off and build something well within my comfort zone (i.e. another Midland D299 in my case) then return to the fray with boosted confidence!

[magmouse]

Perhaps switch to the wooden underframe type, and use the steel frame for another project, as you suggest?

 

Nick.

[airnimal]

Nick, it's not the steel frame that I can use again but the Exactoscale internal part that I will use for something else. 

 

I have nothing to report from my workbench but I have some news from my surgeon who has given me the all clear to resume life. I can ride my bike and go on holiday and drive again.  My last test came back positive with my PSA level at zero. That's the good news but then my other half has decided that the second bedroom has to be decorated before the Australian crew come here in June. Not only decorated but new beds and all them rest off the paraphernalia. Trying to move beds, wardrobes and dressing tables from room to room and sometimes back again as well as all the painting is not my favourite pastime.  And then the cost on top of losing our not claims bonus on our car because her indoors has bumped our chariot into a posh Audi in B & Q carpark. It was only about 5 mph but it's still caused  a considerable amount of damage to our car as well as the losing the £300 excess. Deep joy !

 

So with no modelling being produced I got out a few wagons to remind me of what I want to achieve in the future.  

[magmouse]

18 minutes ago, airnimal said:

Nick, it's not the steel frame that I can use again but the Exactoscale internal part that I will use for something else. 

 

Ah, understood.

 

Goods news about your health, although not so much about the decorating and the car... Take satisfaction in your beautiful past work, and in your plans for future models!

 

Nick.

 

[airnimal]

I was going to start a new thread on the cost of O gauge wagons but I have forgotten how to go about starting a new one so I have added this on here. 

 

A friend is starting to build a large O gauge pre-grouping layout in S7. And he has sought my opinion of various wagon kits available. And one of the questions came up were the costs of kits and especially when upgrades were deemed necessary because of inferior parts or to fit the wagon in the correct time period.  

We are aware of course that the wheels would have to be changed fo S7 but the other aspects would still be necessary in finescale as well. And then the conversation turned to second hand values and never getting back the amount spent in the first place. We know that this is our hobby and very few hobbies are cost effective but this came home to us just recently when the sale at auction of a beautiful layout in S7 with professional built rolling stock went for peanuts compared with what it cost to build. We believe that had the layout and stock being finescale it would have generated more money provided it had been looked after the original owner died. 

At least all my S7 wagons have wheels that can be changed for finescale if necessary when I'm gone unless any of my grandchildren want them which I doubt.  

 

My friend mentioned that some 4 wheeled wagons when up graded to his standards were going to cost in the region of between £70 to £80 each and then they still needed building, and some of the more exotic ones were going to cost more.

 

Getting old,  the subject always come to what are your family going to do when one goes to the engine shed in the sky and how much are your models worth ?

I have heard horror stories of families selling entire collections quickly just to get there hands on some  money rather than wait until friends in the know can realise a realistic price through the right channels.  

 

When I first started on O gauge 40 years ago one could buy a Slaters wagon kit with everything in for a few pounds. Of course wages were different then and the cost of living we all know about but when do we find it's starting to get to much. 

I scratch build for several reasons but the main one is I am useless at kit building,  but a bonus is the cost which rarely goes over £20 per wagon. 

I have several friends older than myself with vast collections which I know they have spent amazing amounts of money on which frightens me a little especially when my best friend  mentions with tongue in cheek he will skip all my models when I go to save time.

 

[Compound2632]

At one level, building a wagon is like going to a concert or a sports event or whatever. You pay your money for a few hours' pleasure and entertainment. Unlike a concert or sports event, afterwards you've got more than just the memory; you've got the satisfaction of looking at the result of your handiwork. Any value it has as an item to be sold on is a bonus, not central to the scheme of things.

 

It's well-known that on the second-hand market an unopened kit is worth far more than one that has been made, unless it's been made by one of a handful of builders of the very highest reputation.

[ian@stenochs]

Mike,

Scratchbuilding is relatively cheap as we only buy materials and a few components but get lots of pleasure building something unique for a few pence per hour. Also remember the deep sense of satisfaction one gets when you can say ' I made that myself'. 

It's the journey that's important. Once we reach the terminus, that's it!

Ian

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, ian@stenochs said:

Scratchbuilding is relatively cheap as we only buy materials and a few components

True, but those components - such as motors - can therefore be of higher quality, and cost, without affecting the overall cost of things too much.

But I wouldn’t describe some of the machine tools I have acquired over the years as cheap!

[CKPR]

As a newcomer to 7mm, I have been surprised at the cost and quality of 7mm kits and not in a good way. With the exception of Slaters and ABS (now D. J. Parkin), the need to upgrade underframe parts and add/replace detail seems comparable to 4mm and, dare I say, unnecessary and avoidable. Parkside u/frames verge on the representational in 4mm but this scales up to caricature in 7mm. That said, I've got some scratch-building planned (NBR and NER brake vans) and the experience from doing up the Parkside vehicles should come in handy. I'll draw a discreet veil over the two 3H 7 plank wagons rebuilt as GNR opens... 

[ian@stenochs]

9 hours ago, Regularity said:

True, but those components - such as motors - can therefore be of higher quality, and cost, without affecting the overall cost of things too much.

But I wouldn’t describe some of the machine tools I have acquired over the years as cheap!

Quality tools are an investment not an expense!  When I bought my Myford super 7 in 1982 it was quite expensive.  However it gets a lot of use, 3/4 times a week and has cost pennies to run.  A universal machine tool with an amazing number of applications which makes a lot of modelling tasks easy, accurate and quick.

Looking at similar machines for sale now it still has a lot of value so it has paid for itself many time over.

Ian.

[magmouse]

For those that might be interested - a little further up this thread there was a discussion of solebar dimensions. In a discussion in another thread about GWR 2- and 3-plank wagons, there is a reference to the source of a drawing showing the bulb solebar in cross-section. The drawing is in The Proceedings of the Institution of Mechanical Engineers 1884, available online (plate 68, which is right at the back of the document):

 

https://archive.org/details/proceedings1884inst/page/n727/mode/2up

 

Nick

[airnimal]

It was my friend's comments about the cost of wagon kits that led me to mention it here. He was starting from scratch and required a large number of wagons to populate his new venture. He was building a particular railway in the period about 1910 so needed wagons to fit the bill for the time and locality. So it was a case of sourcing kits to achieve his high standards of build and represent accuracy that satisfied him. We have come a long way since the days of plastic wagons kits like 3H that satisfied modellers 50 years ago. But my friend was starting from scratch so needed 60 or 70 wagons and even if one bought wagons costing between £35 and £50 it is still a considerable amount of money. And then there is the cost of 10 locos and 30 coaches and the layout to build. As I said before, I scratch build because I am a hopeless at kit building. I couldn't even put a Coopercraft plastic wagon together properly.  

 

Nick, I think I have given up the idea that I am going to build any GWR wagons. I don't have the passion or knowledge to build any that will be accurate enough to satisfy me. Any with so many expert's watching and pointing out errors, it's probably better to concentrate on things I know more about. 

 

[Regularity]

12 hours ago, ian@stenochs said:

Quality tools are an investment not an expense!

Quite, but they are still - in terms of capital expenditure - an expensive investment. I wouldn’t be without mine, and agree that spread out over time, the cost is pennies. A bit like my purchase of personal computers: I tend to buy a reasonably high-end Apple for desktop use, and the last one lasted 13 years before it was incapable of being updated. Cost me less than £2 a week, but my (then) wife did comment about the initial cost!

 

Purchasing cheap tools is expensive in the long-run, as they need to be replaced, but can also lead to errors in making things, which need to be re-made. That is also a cost in time and materials.

 

It is still possible to pick up a very well-equipped lathe such as a Myford ML-10 for less than £1,000, and a (very) well-equipped Unimat 3 for half that: the latter would also include (at this price) an additional milling column and milling head: if lucky, with an additional motor fitted. There are various newer brands imported from China. Some seem better than others, but the prices are pretty much the same,

But how many people are prepared to save up this amount of money, preferring to buy something ready to run instead?

[Regularity]

15 minutes ago, airnimal said:

As I said before, I scratch build because I am a hopeless at kit building. I couldn't even put a Coopercraft plastic wagon together properly.

I tried one about 20 years ago. By the time I had finished replacing various pieces and making good some errors, I realised it would have been cheaper and almost as quick to have started from scratch, just buying in the components I used to upgrade the kit, and using styrene sheet and strip which I already had in stock. Enough work went into it to make me feel it was significantly my own work, but I would have felt better about it if it had had more of me in it.
I think the re-releases of these kits from Slater’s have the upgrade parts included, but I am not sure if the fit of the bodies has been improved.

[magmouse]

1 hour ago, airnimal said:

Nick, I think I have given up the idea that I am going to build any GWR wagons. I don't have the passion or knowledge to build any that will be accurate enough to satisfy me. Any with so many expert's watching and pointing out errors, it's probably better to concentrate on things I know more about.

 

Absolutely fair enough - there is zero point in spending time doing something you don't feel committed to. It's supposed to be a hobby, after all. I would hope the 'watching experts' (and I am not in that group) are offering helpful info, but I take your point.

 

Nick.

[Coal Tank]

Maybe time to think about that smal layout Mike. A factory, Wagon turn tables, timber, pipes , grain, capstans. Lots of modeling interest for a Wagon man. 

[Nick C]

6 hours ago, Regularity said:

Purchasing cheap tools is expensive in the long-run, as they need to be replaced, but can also lead to errors in making things, which need to be re-made. That is also a cost in time and materials.

 

Also known as the Vimes boots theory (Terry Pratchett):

 

Quote

“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

 

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

 

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

 

[Regularity]

4 hours ago, Nick C said:

Also known as the Vimes boots theory (Terry Pratchett):

I grew up in Northampton, where that theory was well-known long before Terry Pratchett’s grandparents were even born…

[airnimal]

I haven't heard of the Vimes boots theory before because I don't read fiction.  I don't need anyone else's nonsense in my head because I have enough of my own. I did read the Lord of the rings once but I found it hard going, I tend to read about history or biographies .

 

I do agree about buying good quality tools and have never regretted buying any. In fact I regret not buying some that I would have like but at the time didn't have the spare money to pay for them. 

 

John, the idea for a small layout is still in my head but at the moment we are still coming to terms with life after lock down and trying to get back to normal.  So I just get a few wagons out and read plenty of railway books and dream. 

[Regularity]

I don’t think I could simply get wagons of that quality out for looking, without desperately thinking of building at least a small shunting layout!