For those interested in old buses (and coaches)

[Johann Marsbar]

14 hours ago, RANGERS said:

Came across a couple of shots from the much vaunted Delaine fleet in South Lincs earlier.

 

YPD128Y was a Leyland Tiger with Duple Dominant IV Express body new to London Country and one of several they owned over a period of about ten years from 1989 to 2000 or so.

 

DTL489D was a Leyland Atlantean PDR1 with Willowbrook body which I think was Delaine's first OMO decker.

 

Those photos look as though they were taken at one of the Delaine "Running Days" in the 1990's. We took our Regent 5 there for a couple of them and it was used on the service into Peterborough.

A few photos from 1993 & 1995...

[RANGERS]

2 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

 

Those photos look as though they were taken at one of the Delaine "Running Days" in the 1990's. We took our Regent 5 there for a couple of them and it was used on the service into Peterborough.

A few photos from 1993 & 1995...

They were indeed on one of the running days, August BH Saturday 1995 or 96 I think. I've some others taken the same day but can't lay my hands on them at the moment.

[RANGERS]

A couple more, staying in Lincs with two taken at Richmond Drive Bus Stn in Skegness.

 

LFE141H, a 1970 Bristol VRT1 with the flat front ECW body new to Lincs Road Car and XPM41, a Bristol FS acquired by them with sister XPM42 from Brighton and Hove for the introduction of open top 'deckers to Skegness in the late '70s.

 

The two are only a few yards apart but on different days according to my very sketchy notes, but closer inspection of XPM suggests that LFE is visible in the background so most likely they were taken at the same time.

 

 

[BrushVeteran]

13 hours ago, John M Upton said:

And this was the terrible B51 from ECW, also on a Tiger chassis,.......................

You're not wrong about that, although it was quite an attractive looking body, it was built down to a price with grossly inadequate research into the effects of an unsupported aluminium framed body on a cut back Leopard chassis with a gigantic boot. The Tigers were slightly better as the air suspension was kinder to 'body shocks' but nevertheless they also fell to pieces!

I am at present involved with the Cherwell Bus Preservation Group in an attempt to restore a former Oxford Citylink example and to remedy some of the failings that Leyland/NBC 'ignored' on the drawing board and we have had to add in order that the body structure will survive in preservation. I was involved with the warranty process when these vehicles were initially delivered and the six Oxford vehicles spent some considerable time and mileage between Lowestoft and Oxford with ECW adding more and more gusset plates in an effort to stop the vehicles 'dragging their arses' along the road. They also 'p****d' in water from all directions necessitating the use of pallets in the boot to keep the luggage dry. Also if you had five fairly hefty people sat in the rearmost five seater transverse seat then you also risked the rear window popping out!

Knowing how ECW built their bodies on conventional supporting full length chassis then I know their pride was deeply affected when they had to turn out these B51's and it was something you didn't mention too much in later years to anyone involved in their build. We therefore hope that when our B51, VUD30X, is finished in a couple of years or so time, that we can revitalise the ECW pride in what was probably one of their worst products. I have plenty of more tales to tell about the restoration of this body but will depress myself having to go over it all!...........it is not fair the the ECW workforce either...............they built what they were told to and their future fate was already in the balance. A few pictures of our 'beast'!!

[Gwiwer]

14 hours ago, John M Upton said:

And this was the terrible B51 from ECW, also on a Tiger chassis

The Leyland Tiger was a sound chassis.  A big improvement over the ponderous Leopard which preceded it.  It romped up hills and the engine note had a nice roar to it.  Bodies were another matter.  

 

The ECW B51 was considered to have build quality and structural issues which meant those vehicles mostly had unfortunately short lives though many were rebuilt or rebodied and lasted longer with new owners.  Despite the sizeable Green Line fleet I only managed a handful of trips on them.  They were regularly substituted with other types too often meaning a "coach" service was worked by a Leyland National bus (usually an SNB) or even the dreaded BL / BN Bristols.  That said I liked both the design and interior fit-out.  I could live with the original "three stripes" green / white livery but thought one broad green band would have been better.  The later "NBC local coach" style with interlaced stripes on two shades of green ..... hmmmm.  If the top half were plain white it would have been much better but that was not as per NBC directives.  

 

The type code TL stood for "Tiger Lowestoft" referring to the location of the coachbuilder's works.  Confusingly the TPL class of Plaxton Paramount-bodied Tigers referred to "Tiger Plaxton Long" with those on shorter chassis as seen in John's first image being simply TP (Tiger Plaxton).  

 

The TP / TPL classes were good vehicles and comfortable with it.  They should have triggered a revival in Green Line fortunes were it not for increasing traffic congestion causing serious unreliability across central London and the general fall-off in long-distance coach custom which had been evident for many years.  How many journeys were ever made between Weybridge and Winchmore Hill for example, or Wrotham to Watford?  And could you plan your trip around a service which was usually hourly and which may or may not arrive within a reasonable time of when it was due?  

 

My all-time favourite modern-era Green Line coach seldom saw use on the traditional network; the BTL class ("Berkhof Tiger Leyland") was a high-floor and swanky design utterly unsuited to the likes of Green Line work with fairly regular stops.  They were bought for, and largely used on, airport services and long-haul holiday work though a few ran as contract vehicles for specific customers.  I rode them a few times on the 747 (Heathrow - Gatwick non-stop via M25 / M23) and 767 (Victoria - Heathrow via M4 and entirely within the LT area though not charging LT fares by any means!).  They also turned up on hire to National Express as service dupes.   Nice coaches, they were.  

.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Gwiwer
Correcting auto-corrupt

[RANGERS]

4 minutes ago, BrushVeteran said:

You're not wrong about that, although it was quite an attractive looking body, it was built down to a price with grossly inadequate research into the effects of an unsupported aluminium framed body on a cut back Leopard chassis with a gigantic boot. The Tigers were slightly better as the air suspension was kinder to 'body shocks' but nevertheless they also fell to pieces!

I am at present involved with the Cherwell Bus Preservation Group in an attempt to restore a former Oxford Citylink example and to remedy some of the failings that Leyland/NBC 'ignored' on the drawing board and we have had to add in order that the body structure will survive in preservation. I was involved with the warranty process when these vehicles were initially delivered and the six Oxford vehicles spent some considerable time and mileage between Lowestoft and Oxford with ECW adding more and more gusset plates in an effort to stop the vehicles 'dragging their arses' along the road. They also 'p****d' in water from all directions necessitating the use of pallets in the boot to keep the luggage dry. Also if you had five fairly hefty people sat in the rearmost five seater transverse seat then you also risked the rear window popping out!

Knowing how ECW built their bodies on conventional supporting full length chassis then I know their pride was deeply affected when they had to turn out these B51's and it was something you didn't mention too much in later years to anyone involved in their build. We therefore hope that when our B51, VUD30X, is finished in a couple of years or so time, that we can revitalise the ECW pride in what was probably one of their worst products. I have plenty of more tales to tell about the restoration of this body but will depress myself having to go over it all!...........it is not fair the the ECW workforce either...............they built what they were told to and their future fate was already in the balance. A few pictures of our 'beast'!!

They were quite attractive coaches, they had something of a modern, even continental appearance but retained the functional elegance of the ECW marque.

 

The early 80s weren't a vintage period for the UK coach building industry, deregulation and the need to compete meant operators sought something more to distinguish their offer and having had it their own way for years, the influx of overseas competitors hit the home based builders hard. Add to that the politically led decisions to drive the NBC down the Willowbrook and ECW route for their coaches and the structural issues Duple encountered with "economy" Dominant IVs supplied to NBC, collectively wreaked havoc on the state sector, and overall it was a time that the industry is happy to draw a veil over. Even Plaxton's attempts to meet the cost demands of an increasingly cash strapped NBC resulted in major corrosion issues with the otherwise well liked Paramounts, leading to a very early restyle to accommodate the upgrades needed to rectify this. Ironically, the revised product proved cheaper to manufacture than its predecessor and though far from corrosion free, was a much less needy vehicle.

 

[Gwiwer]

3 minutes ago, RANGERS said:

The early 80s weren't a vintage period for the UK coach building industry ..... the structural issues Duple encountered with "economy" Dominant IVs supplied to NBC..... it was a time that the industry is happy to draw a veil over.

The all-time low-point being the arrival of forward-engined Ford R-series coaches with Duple Dominant bodies to NBC subsidiaries (who would much rather have had Leylands or anything else heavyweight) which were expected to become front-line express-service vehicles on the then-new "white coach" network being forged from the various operations of NBC's many subsidiaries.  

 

They were nowhere near up to the job.  When industry standard was fast becoming the semi-automatic they had dreadful six-speed manual gearboxes.  The engines intruded into the driver's cab area and the passenger stepwell and made screaming noises only a banshee could be proud of.  In consequence they usually stank of oil inside.  

 

Some drivers refused them point blank.  I recall that when Southdown replaced ageing Leopards with brand new Fords on the Sussex - London routes more than one of our local drivers refused to take a Ford.  Upon being shown the "Delicensed" stickers on the Leopard coach windscreens and asked what he planned to do one promptly hopped into a standard Leopard bus, wound up "067 Service" on the blind and advised the duty supervisor that he and his passengers would be much better off with this vehicle than the one allocated!  He was grudgingly allowed to take it.  

[John M Upton]

1 hour ago, Gwiwer said:

My all-time favourite modern-era Green Line coach seldom saw use on the traditional network; the BTL class ("Berkhof Tiger Leyland") was a high-floor and swanky design utterly unsuited to the likes of Green Line work with fairly regular stops.  They were bought for, and largely used on, airport services and long-haul holiday work though a few ran as contract vehicles for specific customers.  I rode them a few times on the 747 (Heathrow - Gatwick non-stop via M25 / M23) and 767 (Victoria - Heathrow via M4 and entirely within the LT area though not charging LT fares by any means!).  They also turned up on hire to National Express as service dupes.   Nice coaches, they were.  

.

 

Used to see the BTL's a lot in Crawley when visiting my gran in Three Bridges:

 

Always looked very tall to me.  I think I rode on once on a local C5 bus from Crawley Town Centre to Three Bridges and recall it was like ascending a mountain up the entrance steps to get in.

 

Nice ride though...

[Gwiwer]

2 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Always looked very tall to me.

They were.  They had full-width and almost full-length luggage lockers specifically designed for airport and holiday traffic.  A stage-carriage vehicle they were not.  They had more entrance steps than a Southdown dual-purpose Leopard (which had five, six if you include stepping up from the ground) but once you got inside you could relax in those seats.  The suspension gave a lovely ride as well.  

[John M Upton]

Late 1980's or very early 1990's in the murky cesspit that was the old pre refurbishment Victoria Coach Station:

 

[stewartingram]

I believe DTL489D was one of a pair bought jointly, by co-operation between Delaine and Whippet Coaches, the other one being FEW1D. which lasted from 1/66 to 12/82.

My pic here shows it parked up on East Road Cambrige, along with 9DER, the Daimler Fleetline from Burwell & District. I reckon the pic was taken during the winter of 1966/1967.

 

Stewart

[Gwiwer]

53 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Late 1980's or very early 1990's in the murky cesspit that was the old pre refurbishment Victoria Coach Station:

 

The first chinks in the corporate NBC livery armour already showing there.  "London Express" instead of "National Express" on a vehicle specifically allocated to London runs from Essex - in this case clearly showing the destination "Southend Central" as proof.  Company fleet name in company style on the dash too not the normally required National Express or double-N logo.  

[John M Upton]

Also an ECW coach body version on an Olympian chassis, a major return to form after the B51 debacle but that was down to basically adapting an existing successful design in the form of the standard ECW Olympian bus body, so good in fact that Roe and Optare produced clones and Leyland themselves continued to build it after ECW was closed down.

[Gwiwer]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

Also an ECW coach body version on an Olympian chassis, a major return to form after the B51 debacle but that was down to basically adapting an existing successful design in the form of the standard ECW Olympian bus body, so good in fact that Roe and Optare produced clones and Leyland themselves continued to build it after ECW was closed down.

Not enough of those were built in my opinion - they were good runners and fine to travel on.  The coach market was well supplied with MCW Metroliner 'deckers for busy National Express routes and the Neoplan Skyliners of Trathens (later owned by Parks) still plied the West of England routes sharing honours with NBC hardware.  

 

Eastern National had a small number of these Olympian coaches for its London commuter routes.  As did London Country to a slightly different design and coded LRC class for Leyland Roe Coach even though the bodies weren't Roe but adopted the "C" suffix of their LR bus equivalents.  Not all of those carried Roe bodies either but some did.  Those were used on the 720 Gravesend - Victoria Green Line which was carrying burgeoning commuter traffic at a time when the railways were ailing.  The route was very quiet at weekends meaning the LRCs could be offered to NX for duplication.  Their regular haunt was the coincidentally-numbered 720 Victoria - Bournemouth run meaning the blinds didn't even need setting - they could still show "720 London Victoria" !!  Saturday westbound workings carrying holidaymakers were balanced with Sunday evening London-bound runs carrying returning students.  The last "Up" 720 on a Sunday evening regularly produced a Shamrock & Rambler Metroliner, duplicated by an LRC, triplicated by a S&R or any other Leopard / Tiger NX could beg or borrow.  And they were all full.  

 

Alder Valley also ran Olympian / ECW coaches on London commuter routes.  

[John M Upton]

There was an attempt to counter the MCW Metroliner's dominance on National Express double deck coach work, the seemingly forgotten in the mists of time Plaxton Paramount 4000:

 

Only one I ever saw, Victoria Coach Station again, probably the same day as the above shot and indeed this one:

 

 

Some young upstarts called Stagecoach who chose the Neoplan Skyliner...

Edited November 11, 2021 by John M Upton

[RANGERS]

Three generations of the Plaxton body on AEC Reliance chassis that epitomised the Premier Travel fleet in the late 70s for today.

 

JVE371P was from the batch of four delivered in 1975, the first Plaxtons Premier had new and which started a line that went on until a batch of Premiere 350 Volvos for National Express work ended the lineage (they were also the last coaches Premier bought new before being acquired by Stagecoach).

 

NEB347R was the next generation of Plaxton, the Supreme III and which formed the vast majority of their AEC-Plaxton fleet. 

 

WEB408T was from the final batch of AEC Plaxtons dating from 1979 with the stylish Supreme IV body. In later years this coach also had the honour of being what is believed to be the last AEC Reliance to operate a scheduled National Express journey when it worked the 14.00 011 service from Cambridge to London and 17.00 return on Sept 23rd 1995. I've a photo somewhere of it in the gloom on its return to Drummer St that evening. It was apparently treated as something of a celebrity during its short stay at VCS, by that time the network would have been dominated by the Plaxton Expressliner so the Supreme would have stood out.

 

I'd a high regard for the Reliance 760, particular with ZF manual gears. They would go and stop in the right order, unlike the feline Leyland, and always had the edge over the Leopard on hills and usually rode a bit better though their wayward steering took a bit of getting used to.

[Busmansholiday]

10 hours ago, RANGERS said:

I'd a high regard for the Reliance 760, particular with ZF manual gears. They would go and stop in the right order, unlike the feline Leyland, and always had the edge over the Leopard on hills and usually rode a bit better though their wayward steering took a bit of getting used to.

So did I. I started driving at National Travel East (the old SUT) in 1978 and we were predominantly an AEC depot, the NBC though were starting to influence things by allocating us Leopards and even Bedfords. Our "M" reg batch of Duple bodied Reliances were the last without power steering but one was retrofitted inhouse with an AEC designed Airomatic system that was usually found on their off road dumpers. It was a brave, brave man that would dare to take it through the underpass on Arundle Gate in Sheffield due to it's unpredictable directional habits.

As for Drummer Street in Cambridge, I worked the summer saturdays Rotherham to Clackton service for a couple of years in the early 80's, usually with an AEC.

[RANGERS]

Mention of London Country in the post above with the Delaine vehicles set the tone for some other ex-LC vehicles in service with subsequent operators.

 

XPK52T was one of the 1979 batch of RB class Duple Dominant Reliances, pictured here in Richmond Rd Coach Stn in Skegness in the 1990s whist in service with Camms of Nottingham. They were regular visitors to Skeggy and had a varied fleet of vehicles, mostly well past the first flush of youth which made them all the more interesting.

 

APM116 and 119T were from the equivalent Plaxton bodied RS batch in 1979, both having passed to the Hague's of Sheffield fleet by the time this pic was taken in 1993, again in Richmond Rd Coach Park in Skegness. Hagues and Gordons of Rotherham (who eventually acquired Hagues), were both regular visitors and always turned out their fleet of AECs and Leylands very smartly.

 

NPA224W rang the first changes to the AEC-Duple/ Plaxton pattern in the London Country Coach fleet, the end of the Reliance opening the door to the Leyland Leopard after a trial of a pair of Leopards and Volvo B58s the previous year. This was only a one year option, the Tiger coming into the mix in 1982. This one had passed to Lincs Road Car Co (I think with the business of Gash of Newark) by the time of this shot in the layover area of Skegness Bus Stn, I think in 1996.

 

YPD130Y was one of the 1983 batch of Tiger Duple TDs, a sister vehicle to the one pictured previously with Delaine. The pic isn't the sharpest, not sure if that's the shot or the scan but give the coach is moving, suspect the former, and shows it in its days with Felix of Ilkeston. Felix were a very old established operator and were famously threatened with legal action by MGM I think it was for their use of the Felix the Cat logo on the side of the vehicles, something they'd done for decades before anyone in Hollywood noticed. Perhaps nobody from Hollywood had ever been to Ilkeston or as the coach is seen arriving into here, Skegness.

 

London Country's arrangement for the supply of these vehicles involved the Coach Dealer Kirkby Central and third party finance houses, the coaches being leased to London Country for six years and Kirkby underwriting the final residual value on return. They required extensive refurbishment in order to meet the agreed return condition and unable to keep up with the volume of this in house (there were 30 vehicles annually), most of the work was contracted out, United Counties at Northampton did much of it. The vehicles then arrived into Kirkby stock ready for immediate resale where they were generally snapped up very quickly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[great central]

Regarding Camms of Nottingham, they were know around here as Camms Collapsibles, due to the often poor condition they were turned out into service in.

I saw one of their vehicles with water literally pouring from the radiator and heading towards Carlton Hill, who knows if it actually made it to the top.

Another memory is of a very well (ab)used Leyland National where the front section shook in the opposite direction to the rear!

They ran the service 331 under contract to Nottinghamshire county council up to the early 2000s, on one memorable occasion I had decided to walk rather than waiting as it hadn't turned up about 20 minutes after it was due. Another poor old National finally staggered into view around 45 minutes late, doing at best 20mph, leaving a huge black cloud behind and sounded like it was running on two cylinders!

Edited November 13, 2021 by great central
Extra word

[Gwiwer]

Those late-model Reliances from Green Line (London Country Bus Services) were probably under-loved from the start.  Despite London Transport, LCBS's predecessor, having a penchant for AECs the Reliance often proved not to live up to its name.  I suspect that they were worked fairly hard on Green Line routes in their relatively short lives down south even if they seldom carried good loadings.  Green Line was dying by the time they arrived and whilst the RB and RS fleets were a brave attempt to stop the rot it was already terminal.  Despite them being nearly new it was an SNB Leyland National bus which turned up too often - if the service ran at all as this was also a time of driver shortages.  

 

The leasing arrangement by which their acquisition was financed also didn't help; there was little incentive to keep them in tip-top condition knowing they were probably only there for a few years and the engineers had next to no spares and even less budget.  

[RANGERS]

The longevity of the Bedford SB provides a theme for these pics, introduced in 1950 it remained in continuous production until Bedford ceased PSV production in 1986. Intended as the replacement for the legendary OB, just as it predecessor was, the SB was based on the Bedford truck chassis of the day, in this case the Bedford S type.

 

It came initially with the Bedford 300 Petrol engine before a diesel option came with the Perkins P6 offered from 1953. Subsequently there was a choice of bigger Bedford diesels (300, 330 and 330T) and also Leyland options (0.350 and 0.375). Almost 60,000 were built, more than 2/3rd of which were exported to 67 countries across five continents.

 

The first picture was an early model supplied to Yorks of Northampton but pictured after it was subsequently sold to Robinsons of Kimbolton in Cambridgeshire. This was the original 27ft length with 33 Seats in the Duple body.

 

Second is a later 30ft long version with 41 seats in the Duple Vega bodywork supplied to Bluebell of March, Cambs in 1962. This was one of those with the Bedford 300 petrol engine, by that time becoming less common, even amongst rural coach operators.

 

Thirdly, another petrol SB3 with Plaxton Embassy III body dating from 1964 by which time new petrol engine coaches had become rare but the operator who bought this one, Jarvis of Downham Market in Norfolk, was still an all petrol fleet and continued to run only petrol coaches until they ceased operations in 1973 (perhaps in the wake of the fuel crisis that year).

 

The final one represents the twilight years of the SB as a mainstream UK coach model for Bedford, by the time this was new in 1972, it was well on the wane in the home market, operators preferring the larger options from Bedford and their competitors which could accomodate 45 seats in a 32 or 33ft length. This one is an SB5 with the 330 diesel engine and 41 seats in a Duple Vista 31 body, new to Shaws of Maxey in Cambs but pictured here after sale to Elseys of Gosberton, S Lincs.

 

The final SBs for the UK market were built primarily for local authorities or for use in the Channel Islands where local restrictions barred larger vehicles and where a sizeable proportion still opted for the Bedford 300 petrol engine.

 

The final UK coach was a Duple Dominant bodied example, C822XCJ - https://www.flickr.com/photos/rw3-497alh/6727037179

 

The Duple connection was fitting, the first SB had carried a Duple body as had probably the majority of those for the home market and with the end of Bedford coach production, it was the end of a partnership that went back to the beginning of Bedford bus and coach production in 1931. Fittingly it was registered in the last year of production and went to an operator in Cambridgeshire, Myalls of Bassingbourn. just over the county boundary from that which gave the marque its name.

 

[J. S. Bach]

3 hours ago, RANGERS said:

 ...snip...

 

Oh, that grill! It reminds me so much of an electric shaver!!

[stewartingram]

Lovely set of local(ish) pics there. A particularly rare view of a Bluebell (March) vehicle. I remember in my younger days travelling from March to Wisbech by the 'preferred ' Bluebell d/d to Wisbech, rather than our normal Eastern Counties, the 'other way' to Wisbech. That d/d was ex London - not sure which type though. I've not been able to find much on Bluebell, apart from a small selection of photos & models in March Museum.

 

Stewart

[John M Upton]

Anyone fancy a Bedford VAL? Needs a bit of work mind...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185167593512

 

[RANGERS]

25 minutes ago, John M Upton said:

Anyone fancy a Bedford VAL? Needs a bit of work mind...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185167593512

 

That would make a challenging restoration project for someone.

 

New in Nov 1966 to Wigmores of Dinnington, the blue paint lower half and grey upper looks like the remains of its original paint scheme.