pete_mcfarlane Posted May 18, 2017 Share Posted May 18, 2017 http://www.brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-election-manifesto-includes-second-brighton-mainline-1-7963279 I saw this one in a list of Labour policies shared on Facebook (rather amusingly as a new 'mainline to the South-West') and it's a new one on me. It seems to include reopening the the Uckfield-Lewes line, which is one of those scheme that always seems to generate vast amounts of hot air and no business case. It also seems to be a very roundabout way to get to Brighton, even if 140mph trains were used - I'd have thought that better options would be a completely new High Speed line (probably no business case) or building the underground bit from East Croydon in to the city. Part of me (the cynical part) wonders if it's just a tactical ploy for votes in Brighton. Anyone know any more about this? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted May 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2017 I read that a previous iteration of BML2 had been shelved indefinitely. This latest proposal sounds attractive, but I suspect it would be prohibitively expensive. And that's before the locals along the route begin to object... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted May 18, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) http://www.brightonandhoveindependent.co.uk/news/politics/labour-s-election-manifesto-includes-second-brighton-mainline-1-7963279 I saw this one in a list of Labour policies shared on Facebook (rather amusingly as a new 'mainline to the South-West') and it's a new one on me. It seems to include reopening the the Uckfield-Lewes line, which is one of those scheme that always seems to generate vast amounts of hot air and no business case. It also seems to be a very roundabout way to get to Brighton, even if 140mph trains were used - I'd have thought that better options would be a completely new High Speed line (probably no business case) or building the underground bit from East Croydon in to the city. Part of me (the cynical part) wonders if it's just a tactical ploy for votes in Brighton. Anyone know any more about this? There is a very active campaign group looking to reinstate the Uckfield - Lewes line, but having repeatedly been told that the figures are nowhere near good enough to generate a positive BCR, the group has decided their salvation lies in promoting the reinstatement as part of a grander scheme to provide extra capacity between London and Brighton. See http://www.bml2.co.uk/ As such they propose new chords at Lewes to allow through running to Brighton (redevelopment in Lewes forcing a reinstated Uckfield link to join the line from Plumpton), redoubling + electrifying the Uckfield line, evicting the Spa Valley to serve Tunbridge Wells building a massive new 'Croydon Gateway' station at South Croydon, evicting Tramlink, Quadrupling the Elmers end - Hayes line then digging a tunnel under Canary Wharf and sending trains to various random destinations along the West Anglia line All very much a solution (rebuild Uckfield - Lewes) desperately seeking a problem to justify it. The bottom line is that with rebuilds to the junctions north of Croydon, extra platforms there and some further modest (in comparion with the BML2 plans) upgrades, the existing BML can cope on the foreseeable future. Edited May 18, 2017 by phil-b259 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted May 18, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 18, 2017 One of the reasons that London Underground is concentrated north of the river, and surface railways dominate south of it, is that the famous London Clay which it is so easy and cheap (comparatively, I mean, no tunnelling is easy or cheap, ever) to bore through does not extend far south of the river. It is rapidly replaced by gravels and sands which are notoriously difficult to tunnel through, and an underground line in from Croydon would probably not be feasible in the engineering sense unless it was cut and cover and protected in a concrete pipe; the costs of disturbing and reinstating whatever is above it would be very silly money indeed! The existing BML is laid out for fast running and could be improved to provide perhaps a 35 or 40 minute service to London with faster stock, but that would probably require 25kv OHLE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete_mcfarlane Posted May 18, 2017 Author Share Posted May 18, 2017 There is a very active campaign group looking to reinstate the Uckfield - Lewes line, but having repeatedly been told that the figures are nowhere near good enough to generate a positive BCR, the group has decided their salvation lies in promoting the reinstatement as part of a grander scheme to provide extra capacity between London and Brighton. See http://www.bml2.co.uk/ It's telling that the front page of that site describes the former Oxted-Lewes line as 'Brighton’s second main line'. Three coach trains trundling through the Weald serving a few small market towns aren't really what I'd call a 'main line'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Victoria - Brighton - can't see the fascination - it's basically just a long shunt ...................... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted May 19, 2017 Share Posted May 19, 2017 Considering they could do this route in 4 minutes in steam days I don't see why there is a capacity issue now that can only be solved by a new mainline route. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted May 31, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 31, 2017 Considering they could do this route in 4 minutes in steam days I don't see why there is a capacity issue now that can only be solved by a new mainline route. I've seen exhibition layouts that run at faster scale speeds than that... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 Considering they could do this route in 4 minutes in steam days I don't see why there is a capacity issue now that can only be solved by a new mainline route. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7GXWuTwkF8 But it wasn't a steam hauled service in the 4 minute run. It was an EMU, with the shots of the departure from Victoria being of the Brighton Belle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 But it wasn't a steam hauled service in the 4 minute run. It was an EMU, with the shots of the departure from Victoria being of the Brighton Belle. I didn't say it was steam, 'steam days' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted June 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2017 Any attempt to increase speeds on the Brighton main line would cause capacity issues due to the double track bottleneck south of Three Bridges and the stations on that stretch that stopping trains have to serve. But that is just as true for any solution that uses a double track route via Lewes. Quadrupling the line would be very difficult in places, particularly Balcombe Viaduct, so the best solution would probably be a new dedicated high speed line following the route of the M23 and A23. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted June 1, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 1, 2017 Considering they could do this route in 4 minutes in steam days I don't see why there is a capacity issue now that can only be solved by a new mainline route. That's progress for you! Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium phil-b259 Posted June 1, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 1, 2017 Any attempt to increase speeds on the Brighton main line would cause capacity issues due to the double track bottleneck south of Three Bridges and the stations on that stretch that stopping trains have to serve. But that is just as true for any solution that uses a double track route via Lewes. Quadrupling the line would be very difficult in places, particularly Balcombe Viaduct, so the best solution would probably be a new dedicated high speed line following the route of the M23 and A23. Very difficult? most certainly not as regards the Balcombe section! On the other hand if you replace your statement with very expensive you have a point. From Copyhold Junction to Balcombe Junction very little property demolition would be required to add further tracks parallel to the existing pair, though the somewhat hilly terrain and the the requirement for a new viaduct and extra tunnel mean a big price tag for the necessary civils and given the Ouse Valley Viaduct is listed I could see the NIMBYs / conservationists causing big trouble. One alternative could be dynamic loops in the Balcombe area, allowing station calls there to not interfere with non stop services. Not cheep but would avoid the need for duplicate tunnels and viaducts. South of Haywards Heath, a new tunnel and widening of the formation would again could be done with minimal interference to private property - though grade separation of Keyner Junction might be more p[problematic in that regard. South of Keymer 4 tracking is not really necessary - if you sort out the route north of Keymer then the current line through Hassocks will be fine as only 2 tracks. However we are rather getting carried away here as the real capacity constraints are at the London end (particularly the East Croydon / Norwwod Junction / Selhurst triangle) and until they are done further capacity increases in Sussex are pointless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D854_Tiger Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 Part of me (the cynical part) wonders if it's just a tactical ploy for votes in Brighton. Anyone know any more about this? Labour does have this sore spot called Brighton, which is the one place the Greens win and at Labour's expense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin parks Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 That's progress for you! Mike. That is amazing! They left Victoria on the Brighton Belle and arrived in Brighton on a 6 PUL/CIT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeithHC Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 The Bebb updated the 4 minute ride in 1983 and got it down to 3 1/2 minutes but that was in a CIG/BIG/CIG formation. Keith HC former trainspotter in Salfords.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 The Bebb updated the 4 minute ride in 1983 and got it down to 3 1/2 minutes but that was in a CIG/BIG/CIG formation. Keith HC former trainspotter in Salfords.... I thought it was then later done by a pair of 319s even faster. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoingUnderground Posted June 2, 2017 Share Posted June 2, 2017 That is amazing! They left Victoria on the Brighton Belle and arrived in Brighton on a 6 PUL/CIT. I can't tell one SR EMU from another, apart from the Belle, but had spotted that the unit arriving in Brighton wasn't the Belle that left Victoria. So thank you for that info. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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