Ruston Posted June 9, 2017 Author Share Posted June 9, 2017 (edited) Making it work. The gearbox that is recommended in the instructions is the High Level Roadrunner+ but as the gearing on these only goes down to 54:1 I have gone for the LoLoader at 90:1. As you can see in the photos, the running plate and corresponding baseplate inside the engine casing have to be cut to enlarge the hole. The lower front chassis spacer also has to have a notch cut out of it for one of the idler gears to clear. As this has been much weakened I have soldered a piece of scrap in to strengthen it. Test-running the gearbox using an old open-frame Mashima. I had thought about using this motor but it won't slow start at all (even when not connected to the gearbox) and then it just sets off roaring away. I have three more of these and they're all the same, so I'll either wait for the cheap Chinese motors to arrive, or get hold of a Mashima 1020 can motor. The way this particular gearbox is laid out means that 20mm motor length is about all can be got in and as flywheels are a complete waste of time and money small industrials in 4mm, I'm not bothered that I can't fit one. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 10, 2017 Author Share Posted June 10, 2017 (edited) Much to my surprise, the postie shoved a plastic envelope containing three small 12v motors through the letterbox, this morning. They are the exact same type and make of motors that Arthur is also using in his Brush builds. Two pounds and ninety seven pence for three motors all the way from Hong Kong, post-free. It's amazing value for money! The first thing I did was to take the wires off the motor that I had been using to test the gearbox and solder them onto one of the new motors. Unlike the test motor, the new motor turned really slowly as soon as the dial on the controller moved off zero, which looks good for slow-speed controlability, which is of course what you need in a shunter. As Arthur has already mentioned in his build thread, screw holes in the motor aren't suited to those in the High Level gearboxes and the main hole in the gearbox is larger than the bearing boss on the motor. Arthur has set the mesh on his by eye before soldering the motor to the gearbox but I'm not confident of getting the mesh correct by eye, so I have made a collar to fit over the boss on the motor to make it up to the diameter of the hole in the gearbox. To do this I took a spare 7mm axle bearing and soldered it to a length of scrap brass bar. The bearing was then turned down and cut into three before being heated on the gas stove to melt the solder and remove the collars. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 By 'eck Dave, you've done all this AND been to Sunny Scunny for a grand day out!? How many hours are there in your day? Excellent work. The difference in motor boss diameters is something to remember. I've been pondering the fitting of these motors while I've been laid up and come up with all sorts of ideas for adaptors, bushes, etches, etc. I'm sure that Chris G. will suddenly come up with something amazingly simple! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 By 'eck Dave, you've done all this AND been to Sunny Scunny for a grand day out!? How many hours are there in your day? Excellent work. The difference in motor boss diameters is something to remember. I've been pondering the fitting of these motors while I've been laid up and come up with all sorts of ideas for adaptors, bushes, etches, etc. I'm sure that Chris G. will suddenly come up with something amazingly simple! All you need to do is :- Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted June 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 11, 2017 All you need to do is :- MOTOR PACK INSERT.JPG Regards, John Isherwood. ALL???? If I could see, measure and drill that accurately I'd be working in aerospace or brain surgery! Mike. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 I was thinking along the same lines but doing it by turning a drilling jig with a centre boss the same diameter as the HL motor 'hole' and a flange with the two motor mounting holes drilled using the cross slide on the lathe for accuracy. This could then be fitted into the HL etch while still flat, the motor hole positions then being marked and drilled. As I can't stand over the lathe currently (due to a back operation last weekend) it may be a while before I can experiment! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) ALL???? If I could see, measure and drill that accurately I'd be working in aerospace or brain surgery! Mike. I'm sorry, but marking out 30 degrees with a plastic school protractor, and marking on that a circle of 5mm. radius with a a pair of school compasses, must be the the first lesson in basic trigonometry, surely?!? Drilling two 2 mm. diameter holes in thin brass, using a hand drill or even a pin vice, must be the most basic of modelling practices. It is not necessary to sleeve the motor boss to fit the etched gearbox. The two screws will hold the etch to the motor more than adequately, and the gear mesh can be adjusted by slackening the screws slightly and altering the gearbox / motor relationship minutely until sweet running is achieved - then tighten the screws. The work of minutes, even for a bodger like me ! There seems to be a belief in some quarters that a watchmakers' apprenticeship and a lathe are necessary in order to join a motor to a gearbox to a driven axle - it's not !! These motors are churned out by the multi-thousand and the tolerances are not that tight - or critical. Why do some modellers over-think modelling solutions and then convince themselves that they lack the necessary skills to implement the results? What we do is not measured in microns, and would not be improved if it was. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited June 11, 2017 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 I'm sorry, but marking out 30 degrees with a plastic school protractor, and marking on that a circle of 5mm. radius with a a pair of school compasses, must be the the first lesson in basic trigonometry, surely?!? Drilling two 2 mm. diameter holes in thin brass, using a hand drill or even a pin vice, must the most basic of modelling practices. It is not necessary to sleeve the motor boss to fit the etched gearbox. The two screws will hold the etch to the motor more than adequately, and the gear mesh can be adjusted by slackening the screws slightly and altering the gearbox / motor relationship minutely until sweet running is achieved - then tighten the screws. The work of minutes, even for a bodger like me ! There seems to be a belief in some quarters that a watchmakers' apprenticeship and a lathe are necessary in order to join a motor to a gearbox to a driven axle - it's not !! These motors are churned out by the multi-thousand and the tolerances are not that tight - or critical. Why do some modellers over-think modelling solutions and then convince themselves that they lack the necessary skills to implement the results? What we do is not measured in microns, and would not be improved if it was. Regards, John Isherwood. You do it your way and I'll do it mine. Call it overthinking if you like but it's foolproof and doesn't require to be dead on in marking and drilling and there is no adjustment required as it automatically centres the motor. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 (edited) You do it your way and I'll do it mine. Call it overthinking if you like but it's foolproof and doesn't require to be dead on in marking and drilling and there is no adjustment required as it automatically centres the motor. Fine - if you've got the machinery and know how to use, then that's great. But .......... put yourself in the shoes of a relatively inexperienced modeller who wants to model a prototype which isn't available RTR. He can get an appropriate chassis kit, a gearbox kit, a cheap motor and some Markits wheels, and he has dabbled with soldering; he now feels that the time may have come to have a go at chassis-building. Then, reading a thread on RMweb about fitting the cheap motor to the gearbox; (the bit of the project that worried him most); he reads ".... doing it by turning a drilling jig with a centre boss the same diameter as the HL motor 'hole' and a flange with the two motor mounting holes drilled using the cross slide on the lathe for accuracy. This could then be fitted into the HL etch while still flat, the motor hole positions then being marked and drilled". I know what my reaction would have been !! The point is that the quoted method is a perfectly valid way of doing the job - but it's far from being the easiest; or more importantly, the most accessible to the relative beginner. There is a tendency amongst us more mature, (and machine-endowed), modellers to flaunt our craftsmanlike approaches to relatively simple tasks, without mentioning that there are simpler methods to achieve much the same result. I know that, as a teenager, I viewed the articles in the model press which involved machine tools as being way beyond my capabilities - it took me years to learn that I could do it by simpler methods. Eventually, I did acquire the machine tools but, truth be told, the 'blacksmith method' is still used far more frequently that the 'proper' toolroom technique. .... and yes, I can build smooth-running and powerful locos using the 'blacksmith method'. Regards, John Isherwood. Edited June 12, 2017 by cctransuk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 11, 2017 Author Share Posted June 11, 2017 John, Thank you for your input. Now can I please get back to building my kit the way that I want to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 John, Thank you for your input. Now can I please get back to building my kit the way that I want to? Ruston, Of course - I merely wished to reassure less skilled / equipped modellers that they too can aspire to build Mike's excellent kits. Regards, John Isherwood. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted June 11, 2017 Share Posted June 11, 2017 I was thinking along the same lines but doing it by turning a drilling jig with a centre boss the same diameter as the HL motor 'hole' and a flange with the two motor mounting holes drilled using the cross slide on the lathe for accuracy. This could then be fitted into the HL etch while still flat, the motor hole positions then being marked and drilled. As I can't stand over the lathe currently (due to a back operation last weekend) it may be a while before I can experiment! If I follow you correctly, that won't work, certainly not with the Roadrunner+, I'll check with a Loadhauler tomorrow. The HL faceplate is not wide enough to accommodate the mounting screw heads with the motor positioned 'vertically', i.e. with it's flat faces to the sides. You would only be able to get headless grub screws in, obviously of no use, but not screws with any head at all. When folded, the side pieces of the gearbox are directly in line with the outer edge of the mounting holes. Some further modification of the gearbox frame might lead to a solution. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 If I follow you correctly, that won't work, certainly not with the Roadrunner+, I'll check with a Loadhauler tomorrow. The HL faceplate is not wide enough to accommodate the mounting screw heads with the motor positioned 'vertically', i.e. with it's flat faces to the sides. You would only be able to get headless grub screws in, obviously of no use, but not screws with any head at all. When folded, the side pieces of the gearbox are directly in line with the outer edge of the mounting holes. Some further modification of the gearbox frame might lead to a solution. . Without wishing to further intrude - you may find post #21 at http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/98857-building-a-4mm-scale-mpd-midland-3f-0-6-0/ useful. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted June 12, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 12, 2017 If I follow you correctly, that won't work, certainly not with the Roadrunner+, I'll check with a Loadhauler tomorrow. The HL faceplate is not wide enough to accommodate the mounting screw heads with the motor positioned 'vertically', i.e. with it's flat faces to the sides. You would only be able to get headless grub screws in, obviously of no use, but not screws with any head at all. When folded, the side pieces of the gearbox are directly in line with the outer edge of the mounting holes. Some further modification of the gearbox frame might lead to a solution. . I've bolted one of these motors to a Roadrunner+ with no problems at all. I was in a hurry with the Harton 0-4-0 (and it wasn't for a customer) so I just soldered it on - works just as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 (edited) Just the sandboxes to fit and then this part will be ready for the paint shop. The little cast brass oilers come with pipes already attached but they are massively oversized, so I replaced them with 0.2mm wire. The other casting, which I think is something to do with the air brake system, isn't shown on the drawing in the instructions but the photo of one of the Parkgate locos (previously posted) shows it clearly. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 13, 2017 Author Share Posted June 13, 2017 (edited) I mentioned earlier about the solid radiator grille etch. I had decided to use this and had fitted it but had fitted it incorrectly. The instructions don't mention the grille or the front panel of the engine casing in which it fits. One side of the front panel is half-etched to take the grille and as the drawing shows a smooth, flush front I took it that the half-etch goes on the inside and the grille fits behind the panel, as it does on the Ruston 88DS. But when I looked at a photo I realised that the grille fits on the outside of the front panel, so I had built the engine casing up incorrectly. This then spurred me on to make my own grille that would be see-through and for this I have used bits of scrap etch and some stainless steel woven mesh. To the paint shop! Now it's back to the part I find the most trying in any loco build - getting the thing to run well. Chain drives and gear drives are easy but when it comes to rods it's guesswork and luck... Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted June 13, 2017 Share Posted June 13, 2017 Well it all looks very nice to me but I think my two will take much longer than that to build................being a relatively in-experienced brass kit builder. Still I must have a go otherwise Mr Wright will start beating his drum at me! I'm sure though that with all the advice he has given and the great help from this thread I'll be able to achieve it but I'm not in a rush. I will though try and post a few images on here if I feel I have made the right kind of progress! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
5050 Posted June 14, 2017 Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) "Then, reading a thread on RMweb about fitting the cheap motor to the gearbox; (the bit of the project that worried him most); he reads ".... doing it by turning a drilling jig with a centre boss the same diameter as the HL motor 'hole' and a flange with the two motor mounting holes drilled using the cross slide on the lathe for accuracy. This could then be fitted into the HL etch while still flat, the motor hole positions then being marked and drilled". I know what my reaction would have been !!" Everyone has their own opinions and solutions to a problem - and the angle fixing of a 99p motor to a HL gearbox is a potential problem.. This is my solution. You - or anyone else - doesn't have to take notice or copy it. There's nothing wrong with making an accurate jig with machine tools if you have the facility. Sid Stubbs taught me that. Sorry to hijack Dave, I'll go now. Edited June 14, 2017 by 5050 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 14, 2017 Author Share Posted June 14, 2017 (edited) It lives! I have jumped ahead quite a bit but I now have a running chassis. The cast resin axlebox/springs have had to be filed down to allow the cranks to clear but one is still a bit tight, so the inner chassis will have to come out to allow a bit of gentle filing. In the end it was all quite painless getting the quartering right. Three cranks were fixed on using Loctite and were left for several hours. The grub screw that fixes the final drive gear to the axle was loosened to allow the wheels to rotate and the last crank was fitted and adjusted whilst running the chassis back and forth, pressed to the track with finger pressure. When it seemed to be running with no binding I left it for the Loctite on the final crank to set. Of course pushiing it up and down whilst pressing down on it is far more power than the motor can give and it turned out that there was a slight binding on one rod. I traced this to one crank pin being slightly out and straightened it with pliers. I have just used 1mm nickel silver rod for the crank pins and soldered them in with them being set by eye - that'll teach me! Next time I will "overthink" it and make a jig so they go in a 90 deg. to the crank. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 16, 2017 Author Share Posted June 16, 2017 (edited) Almost finished now. I have based the livery on that of the Steel Company of Wales (SCoW) loco that worked at their (and later British Steel Corportation's) Orb works. The exact amount and angle of the stripes may be different but otherwise it's the same. All that remains to do are to fit the sanding pipes and couplers, then add some sheet lead for weight and, of course, weathering. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted June 20, 2017 Author Share Posted June 20, 2017 (edited) It is finished and ready for service. It is also running very sweetly and has been weighted to 180g. It needs to have a decent tractive effort as will be one of the locos for my proposed Cameo Layout and it could end up moving cast whitemetal slag ladles up some quite severe gradients. There is space for more weight but at the moment I am leaving that space for the possibility of fitting DCC sound. Edited July 1, 2017 by Ruston 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Michael Edge Posted June 20, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 20, 2017 That looks great Dave and excellent photos as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guius Posted June 20, 2017 Share Posted June 20, 2017 Thanks for posting your progress with this build Dave, I've very much enjoyed following your interesting thread. Regards Guy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted July 1, 2017 Author Share Posted July 1, 2017 Thanks, chaps. I have restored the photos to RMweb's own hosting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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