Bulleid's Leader: could it have even been successful?

[brack]

13 minutes ago, peach james said:

I was passed some information indicating one of them might survive- that was the best part of 20 years ago.    Anyone know more?

One of the argentinian 4 axle locos survives, although it's essentially a twin motor railcar chassis rather than the loco type design of the Colombian one. Santa Romana, Argentina. But its bogies seem to have gone walkabout (edit - according to the argentinian blog linked below they were swapped for broad gauge wagon bogies to move it around)

 

 

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://trochangos.blogspot.com/2017/11/sentinel-en-el-midland.html%3Fm%3D1&xid=17259,15700023,15700186,15700191,15700256,15700259,15700262,15700265&usg=ALkJrhhmADVl3TaSvSWh64XBnTuwcbzabQ

Edited September 6, 2019 by brack

[kevinlms]

On 07/09/2019 at 05:40, Nearholmer said:

MidlandRed & Jim

 

Bulleid and his team crucially designed the bogies for the big diesels, and they were very good, good enough to go forward into BR designs, but the engine,, generator, control circuitry etc was EE. But then, the SR electrical department and EE were "hand in glove" anyway. The "Hornby" electric locos seem to have been more of an SR home-brew, although EE may have contributed to the designs, a good collaboration between mechanicals and electrical, each contributing from their strengths.

 

As I said earlier, if you think of Leader as a Plan B that allowed to get badly out of hand, it makes some sense.

 

Kevin

 

 

The 1-Co bogie was a requirement, due to the weight of the locos. The LMS Twins used a 3 axle bogie, because the LMS routes had a mostly higher maximum weight. They did have restrictions though, which is why the Southern bogie was used on the Class 40s & Peaks (3 classes).

[rodent279]

Why is that Argentinian loco in camouflage? Was it a military loco?

[brack]

42 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Why is that Argentinian loco in camouflage? Was it a military loco?

No. Because some people who run museums are idiots. 

[rodent279]

8 hours ago, brack said:

No. Because some people who run museums are idiots. 

Since they were built in the war, for the War Department, can we expect someone to paint an 8F in camouflage? Or a WD 2-10-0?

[LMS2968]

No. They were always black or blue in war service.

[rodent279]

14 minutes ago, LMS2968 said:

No. They were always black or blue in war service.

I understand some WD 2-8-0's and 2-10-0's were blue, but were any 8F's painted blue?

[LMS2968]

Yes, I believe so, but all the photos I have are black and white?

 

.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, LMS2968 said:

No. They were always black or blue in war service.

As far as I was aware, the only blue locomotives were those allocated to the Longmoor Military Railway, and that, after the war. The British built 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s were olive drab or similar.

 

Jim 

[jamie92208]

One possible prototype that might have been a success was the Bugatti steam railcar that was being built for SNCF prior to WW2.  This would gave had 2 4 axle bogies with direct drive V8 single acting steam engines on each axle. It got as far as being test run on compressed air. I one translated some of the patent specs and wrote an article for the Bugatti journal about it. My cousin was the editor and though he could build a replica Bugatti he dudn't know much about steam engines. If anyone is interested I could try and dig the article out.  It used a flash boiler IIRC.

 

Jamie

[LMS2968]

55 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

As far as I was aware, the only blue locomotives were those allocated to the Longmoor Military Railway, and that, after the war. The British built 2-8-0s and 2-10-0s were olive drab or similar.

 

Jim 

Yes, bad choice of words on my part. Substitute 'military' for 'war'.

[John M]

On 07/09/2019 at 00:20, runs as required said:

 

 

I've spent large chunks of my life in drawing offices (I was addicted to the smell) and was always very aware of the balance of commitment to design and detail (and where the social centres might be found).

Could it be that OVSB had "lost" the  drawing office in the latter years of WWII ?

 

But this doesn't explain OVSB being taken up by the Irish (who were pretty anti Brit in the 1940s) to have a go at the Turfburner version of Leader - and to opt for frail Crossleys (of all makes considering their 1920s role in Ireland !) rather than Sulzers as the preferred diesels.

dh

 

I would not confuse the Irish Free State's progression to a Republic with animosity toward the United Kingdom or its people. 

 

Its probable that CIE senior management may have known Bulleid at a professional and personal level through Maunsell as Southern CME. 

 

Harry Holcroft advised on the re-building of the Great Southern Railways GSR) 400 Class from 4 to 2 cylinder form during the 1920s, its possible that Bulleid may have advised on the design of the GSR 800 Class 3 cylinder 4-6-0s in the late 1930s

 

The decision to build the Turf Burner appears to have been primarily politically motivated CIE management were heavily committed to dieselisation from the mid 1940s. Although the dieselisation programme was temporarily halted as a result of political pressure following the publication of the Milne Report in 1949  and the Nationalisation of the company the programme resumed with the completion of two Sulzer engined main line locos and the introduction of a large fleet (by Irish standards) for main line and suburban passenger services.

 

Although Bulleid had recommended General Motors locos for main line dieselisation, the decision to buy British locos appears to have been driven primarily as a result of currency exchange controls in place at the time. 

 

The  A Class Metrovicks had the advantage of a light (14T) axleload and a higher power output with the Crossley 2 stroke engine compared with a Sulzer engine of similar power output. CIE already had experience with Metropolitan Vickers  electrical equipment used in 1100 & 1101 the original 915 Hp Sulzer powered locomotives, these locos appear to have been reasonably reliable, but had a high axle load which restricted their route availability and rough riding with BoBo plate frame bogies similar in principal to SR diesels.

 

At one stage it was planned to build up to 50 Turf Burners primarily to handle seasonal sugar beet traffic and cattle specials. Interestingly CC1 was 1st steamed in 1957 after the majority of the A Class and Birmingham Sulzer diesel had entered service.  The most curious feature about CC1 which was basically a double Fairlie were the square section boiler barrels.

 

The project appears to have been abandoned following Bulleid's retirement in 1958, steam was finally eliminated on CIE in 1963 following the introduction of 34 B141 Class locomotives from General Motors.  

 

Its possible Bulleid's greatest contribution while in Ireland was the introduction of welded assembly and fabrication at Inchacore Works significantly increasing carriage and wagon building capability. CIE replaced the majority of its carriage and wagon fleet and built 31 diesel hydraulic shunting locos within a 12 year period

Edited September 9, 2019 by John M

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I’m not at all sure that Ireland could be called “anti Brit” in the 1940s, more a country that had just felt the chilling, literally and figuratively, affects of being cold-shouldered by Britain, and was deeply determined to be a lot less dependant upon British coal than it had been hitherto.

[brack]

Not just britain, but in the emergency (ww2) I'd imagine getting oil supplies or coal from elsewhere was rather difficult. The turfburner being operable on native fuel may have been planned with that experience in mind, as an alternative to diesels dependent on imported oil. I know they had the coal mines at arigna but it wasnt great quality (the apocryphal quote was along the lines "ah, we always kept a bucket or two of arigna coal about, in case anything went on fire").

As for square boilers? Not exactly the best shape to make a pressure vessel. Another bulleid experiment too far thrown in with the others?

Edited September 9, 2019 by brack

[Nearholmer]

For rather difficult, read nigh-on impossible once Britain withdrew coal supplies.

 

If you want a lively, as opposed to dryly academic, account of fuel policy in Ireland at this time, read the autobiography of Todd Andrews, who founded the Turf Development Board, and later did for the railways what Beeching did in the UK, the relevant part being called “A Man of No Property”. It is absolutely fascinating.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Nearholmer

[brack]

Checking a reference suggests that the proposed batch of production turfburners were intended to burn oil, but with the capability to burn turf in emergencies.

[Nearholmer]

Now that the topic has rambled to where it has, another book recommendation, see below.

 

Its based around the author’s PhD thesis, and focuses on how the GSR fared during the coal-famine. Bulleid gets s passing mention when talking about have there was a drive to bring in new blood after The Emergency, and is described as “talented but eccentric”, which might be thought a valid summary.

[John M]

Although there is a lot of criticism of the Irish Governments isolationist policies from the 1930s up to the early 1960s, the Republic largely achieved energy self-sufficiency in terms of electricity generation during the 1940 & 1950 through the establishment of The Electricity Supply Board and Bord na Mona through a combination of hydro electric schemes and turf burning power stations in the Midland. The ESB & BNM were basically the Irish equivalent of the CEGB & NCB with BNM a major employer and railway operator. Energy self sufficiency became less of an issue by the mid-1950s as Ireland began to look outwards and develop a more mixed export economy with a greater focus on foreign direct investment in manufacturing that lead to the relatively short lived economic boom of the 1960s and the purchase of American diesel locomotives.

 

Its odd that the Irish Government failed to support further development of the Drumm Battery Train during the 1940s as the battery trains had operated in regular service on Dublin-Bray suburban services for over 12 years before the system was abandoned. Its possible that further development of the Drumm Battery system for rail traction was abandoned on account of short battery life and the higher capital cost of the battery trains compared to diesel railcars. 

 

Bulleid may have considered fireless locomotives for main line use in combination with steam charging stations located around the rail network, similar in principal with the Great Southern Railways experience with the Drumm Battery Train.  There is a story that Bulleid sketched out the basic concept to a group of workers during an evening stroll around Inchacore Works shortly after his appointment as CME.

 

[runs as required]

My generalised "anti-Brit" labelling comes from family friendships with Irish (on both sides of the border) and university in Liverpool from the mid fifties discovering a strong contingent of openly IRA fellow students from the island of Ireland.

We enjoyed stimulating student exchanges with Dublin (though forewarned 'to be careful')..

I lived above above Herculaneum Dock in its postwar heyday in late 1950s/early 1960 loading the Kelly colliers for Ireland. I didn't know about the 1940s coal embargo  - but of course the Free State was neutral through WWII. My wife still remembers no sweet rationing in Dublin in 1946 !

dh

 

PS

There was a Brendan Behan song with the line "the Tans in their big Crossley tenders came roaring along through the town".

All the above is why I could never could support dropping " the Backstop"

 

[Andy Kirkham]

19 minutes ago, runs as required said:

My generalised "anti-Brit" labelling comes from family friendships with Irish (on both sides of the border) and university in Liverpool from the mid fifties discovering a strong contingent of openly IRA fellow students from the island of Ireland.

We enjoyed stimulating student exchanges with Dublin (though forewarned 'to be careful')..

I lived above above Herculaneum Dock in its postwar heyday in late 1950s/early 1960 loading the Kelly colliers for Ireland. I didn't know about the 1940s coal embargo  - but of course the Free State was neutral through WWII. My wife still remembers no sweet rationing in Dublin in 1946 !

dh

 

PS

There was a Brendan Behan song with the line "the Tans in their big Crossley tenders came roaring along through the town".

All the above is why I could never could support dropping " the Backstop"

 

 

It does seem a bit curious that the CIE adopted a livery that could well be described as "Black and Tan"

Dublin Pearse Station, Sept 22, 1975 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

[Arun Sharma]

Given that part of ASLEF's objection to the Leader was the unbearable conditions for the fireman, would Leader have been anymore successful if it had been an oil burner with the fireman being able to be a little further back from the boiler faceplate - or if the economics of imported oil made that impossible, would some sort of automatic pulverised coal feed have made it any more acceptable?

[rockershovel]

My understanding is that the fireman’s position was isolated from the driver, excessively hot, lacked ventilation and had only a single point of entry and exit. 

[jamie92208]

I believe that there was a side corridor, to enabld 5he fireman to reach thd cabs. This meant that thd boiler had to be offset. The forridor floor was filled with vallast weights. From what I have read, OVSB originally designed it to bdnoil fired but currency shortaves meant that they had to revert to coal. If it had been oil fired the fireman could have been in thd cab with the driver.

 

Jamie

[Pandora]

On 09/09/2019 at 10:11, jamie92208 said:

One possible prototype that might have been a success was the Bugatti steam railcar that was being built for SNCF prior to WW2.  This would gave had 2 4 axle bogies with direct drive V8 single acting steam engines on each axle. It got as far as being test run on compressed air. I one translated some of the patent specs and wrote an article for the Bugatti journal about it. My cousin was the editor and though he could build a replica Bugatti he dudn't know much about steam engines. If anyone is interested I could try and dig the article out.  It used a flash boiler IIRC.

 

Jamie

The late Alex Moulton, one of Britain's leading Design Engineers the Moulton Bicycle, car suspension (hydrolastic/hydragas) plus many other areas,  had a particular interest in the Bugatti steam "TGV", he made a number of appeals for information concerning the lost project,   did you ever communicate with him on the subject? 

Edited September 30, 2019 by Pandora

[Graham_Muz]

May I correct one of the myths already repeated a couple of times in this thread; the Leader was not to replace the M7s but to have the same route availability as the M7 which are somewhat different.  

My source for this is from a conversation I personally had with the now  Late John Click, whom was Bulleid’s right hand man (once he passed away his photograph collection taken of the Leader inside Eastleigh works during construction and also in test was passed to the NRM and some were subsequently published in Kevin Robertson’s book on the subject, unfortunately The manuscript of John Click’s own book on the Leader he told me he was working on has never surfaced and I assume was never saved) the same statement regarding Route Availability was made in H.A.V. Bulleid’s biography about his father.