RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 3, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2017 (edited) Good afternoon and my apologies if this has already been "frogged" to death, but my search didn't come up with a definitive answer. Question: How do I wire up two Gaugemaster DCC80 autofrogs to a Peco Electrofrog Code 75 Double-slip? When conventionally wiring a double slip using a Peco micro-switch, you would take each of the the frog dropper wires to the opposite point motor micro-switch. As the autfrog is connected directly to the Power BUS, I assume this no longer matters, and you just wire them both up independently from each Frog and both to the BUS and away you go! Am I correct? Is it really as easy as that? Do I still need to fully isolate it from all connecting rails, and just power the outside rails of the D/S from the PowerBUS? Will is cause a short which will prevent the DCC system from running (Roco z21) To help, here are some of the limiting factors: 1. No room underneath for under-mounting point motors (baseboard support joist)so will be surface mounting using Peco PL-10's which I already have, including mounting plates. 2. Double Slip is in hidden fiddle-yard so surface mounting not an issue. 3. No pin extruding from bottom of point motor so cannot use PL-13 accessory switches (must be old point motors), or micro-switches. 4. Have previously wired up a double-slip on main layout for DC, using under-mounted point motors and micro-switches - Now using DCC and it still works fine 5. Using Roco z21 DCC system. Currently CDU operated point motors via analogue switches, but intend to move over to DCC point control (Gaugemaster DCC 30's) As a side note: I am changing all of my Code 100 fiddle yard to code 75 with Electrofrog points and this issue will apply to all points. Cost to change all 9 point motors for extruding pins plus 9 PL-13's - £65.00; Cost for 9 x DCC80's - £36! Hence the reason I am choosing this route! Thank you one and all. Ian Edited July 3, 2017 by ianLMS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Good afternoon and my apologies if this has already been "frogged" to death, but my search didn't come up with a definitive answer. Question: How do I wire up two Gaugemaster DCC80 autofrogs to a Peco Electrofrog Code 75 Double-slip? When conventionally wiring a double slip using a Peco micro-switch, you would take each of the the frog dropper wires to the opposite point motor micro-switch. As the autfrog is connected directly to the Power BUS, I assume this no longer matters, and you just wire them both up independently from each Frog and both to the BUS and away you go! Am I correct? Is it really as easy as that? Do I still need to fully isolate it from all connecting rails, and just power the outside rails of the D/S from the PowerBUS? Will is cause a short which will prevent the DCC system from running (Roco z21) To help, here are some of the limiting factors: 1. No room underneath for under-mounting point motors (baseboard support joist)so will be surface mounting using Peco PL-10's which I already have, including mounting plates. 2. Double Slip is in hidden fiddle-yard so surface mounting not an issue. 3. No pin extruding from bottom of point motor so cannot use PL-13 accessory switches (must be old point motors), or micro-switches. 4. Have previously wired up a double-slip on main layout for DC, using under-mounted point motors and micro-switches - Now using DCC and it still works fine 5. Using Roco z21 DCC system. Currently CDU operated point motors via analogue switches, but intend to move over to DCC point control (Gaugemaster DCC 30's) As a side note: I am changing all of my Code 100 fiddle yard to code 75 with Electrofrog points and this issue will apply to all points. Cost to change all 9 point motors for extruding pins plus 9 PL-13's - £65.00; Cost for 9 x DCC80's - £36! Hence the reason I am choosing this route! Thank you one and all. Ian This might help http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/prodigy/DCC80.pdf - it shows frog rails insulated............... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 3, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2017 This might help http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/prodigy/DCC80.pdf - it shows frog rails insulated............... Thanks - I see they recommend just isolating the "V" not the whole point, which is fine on standard points, but double slips a little more "interesting". I know conventional wiring practices for a D/S is to isolate the whole thing. Again, using the Autofrog and the frog droppers in the main question. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Good afternoon and my apologies if this has already been "frogged" to death, but my search didn't come up with a definitive answer. Question: How do I wire up two Gaugemaster DCC80 autofrogs to a Peco Electrofrog Code 75 Double-slip? When conventionally wiring a double slip using a Peco micro-switch, you would take each of the the frog dropper wires to the opposite point motor micro-switch. As the autfrog is connected directly to the Power BUS, I assume this no longer matters, and you just wire them both up independently from each Frog and both to the BUS and away you go! Am I correct? Is it really as easy as that?Basically YES Do I still need to fully isolate it from all connecting rails, The 2 frog rails must be fully isolated from the rest of the layout , but the other rails may not have to be isolated, depends where they go and just power the outside rails of the D/S from the PowerBUS? Will is cause a short which will prevent the DCC system from running (Roco z21) To help, here are some of the limiting factors: 1. No room underneath for under-mounting point motors (baseboard support joist)so will be surface mounting using Peco PL-10's which I already have, including mounting plates. 2. Double Slip is in hidden fiddle-yard so surface mounting not an issue. 3. No pin extruding from bottom of point motor so cannot use PL-13 accessory switches (must be old point motors), or micro-switches. 4. Have previously wired up a double-slip on main layout for DC, using under-mounted point motors and micro-switches - Now using DCC and it still works fine If the frog switching works on DC it should work on DCC 5. Using Roco z21 DCC system. Currently CDU operated point motors via analogue switches, but intend to move over to DCC point control (Gaugemaster DCC 30's) As a side note: I am changing all of my Code 100 fiddle yard to code 75 with Electrofrog points and this issue will apply to all points. Cost to change all 9 point motors for extruding pins plus 9 PL-13's - £65.00; Cost for 9 x DCC80's - £36! Hence the reason I am choosing this route! Thank you one and all. Ian As a general rule I insulate both frog rails on all electrofrog trackwork The LH diagram shows a DS with no other point work nearby & only requires 4 IRJs (insulated rail joiners) shown I green The RH diagram shows a bit more complex trackwork , the 3 frogs need separate Autofrogs The minimum number of track feeds needed are shown at positions A & B John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Izzy Posted July 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2017 (edited) I would wire it in exactly the same way as if you were using micro-switches to change the frog polarity. In other words exactly as stated in your first post, isolated from other track with the outer rails each powered from the bus. All the autofrog really does is replace the micro-switches by changing the frog polarity as required when a short is detected as stock runs through it and the polarity is not correct for what is needed. Izzy Edited July 3, 2017 by Izzy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted July 3, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 3, 2017 (edited) As a general rule I insulate both frog rails on all electrofrog trackwork The LH diagram shows a DS with no other point work nearby & only requires 4 IRJs (insulated rail joiners) shown I green The RH diagram shows a bit more complex trackwork , the 3 frogs need separate Autofrogs The minimum number of track feeds needed are shown at positions A & B autofrog.jpg John Thank you John for posting the clearest diagrams I have seen to help DCC/Frog Juicer (in my case...not the Gaugemaster ones) some double slips. Much appreciated as I'm so hopeless at wiring. Phil Edited July 3, 2017 by Mallard60022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 3, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 3, 2017 As a general rule I insulate both frog rails on all electrofrog trackwork The LH diagram shows a DS with no other point work nearby & only requires 4 IRJs (insulated rail joiners) shown I green The RH diagram shows a bit more complex trackwork , the 3 frogs need separate Autofrogs The minimum number of track feeds needed are shown at positions A & B autofrog.jpg John Thank you John - exactly what I was hoping for. A simple to follow diagram. There will be one point coming onto the double slip which will be isolated from the D/S and will have its own Autofrog. Many thanks Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted July 3, 2017 Share Posted July 3, 2017 Anyone care to comment on how well or not these Gaugemaster DCC80's actually work on a layout ? or would frog juicers be a better but (more expensive) option ? TIA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 4, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2017 I am still in track laying mode in the re-modeled fiddle yard so might be a week or so before I get chance to test them. Having looked on the other Model Railway forum, I found a post where this exact question was asked and it seemed quite a few folks had used the DCC 80's with a Double Slip and they work just fine. Lots of discussion on pro's/cons of using them but no helpful diagram like John had provided us!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroomy Posted July 4, 2017 Share Posted July 4, 2017 Anyone care to comment on how well or not these Gaugemaster DCC80's actually work on a layout ? or would frog juicers be a better but (more expensive) option ? TIA Been using them for a few monthsOne word "Faultless" But they are always famous last words lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted July 4, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 4, 2017 Been using them for a few months One word "Faultless" But they are always famous last words lol Thank you Shroomy - this is very positive and promising. Hopefully I will have the same experience! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artificer1 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Picked up on a previous thread , Enquiry : I have recently purchased DCC80 autofrog 3 pack, my question is , 'why can you not connect multiple frog input wires to one frog polarity switch on the basis only one turnout is operated at a time. ' the DCC bus remains common to all . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted September 23, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 23, 2018 As answered elsewhere it’s because it’s not linked to the operation of the turnout, rather when a loco travels through the point, which could happen in multiple places at once. I think I’m right in saying you could use one for a crossover, as there you'd want both pairs of points to share polarity - ie both ‘open’ or ‘switched’. Could cause issues if one pair of points in the crossover was in a different state to the other, but that would cause problems regardless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 23, 2018 As answered elsewhere it’s because it’s not linked to the operation of the turnout, rather when a loco travels through the point, which could happen in multiple places at once. I think I’m right in saying you could use one for a crossover, as there you'd want both pairs of points to share polarity - ie both ‘open’ or ‘switched’. Could cause issues if one pair of points in the crossover was in a different state to the other, but that would cause problems regardless. I think the polarity of the two frogs in a crossover is opposite to each other? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I think the polarity of the two frogs in a crossover is opposite to each other? Ian, Quite correct. Non Railway People (not intended to be derogatory in any way), may not appreciate that on the real railway turnouts often operate as one of a pair ie a crossover. A diamond crossing or single/double slip will normally operate simultaneously with another turnout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 To decide what economies can be made with the DCC80's working more than one frog, you need a track diagram and then mark on a matrix the position of each turnout for a particular route. This needs to be shown as Normal or Reverse. You then need to work out the polarity of each frog. I use the protocol of using a black wire for the furthest rail (Black is Back) and a red wire for the nearest rail. With your diagram you need to establish which frogs will be red and which will be black for a particular route. It should then be clear if you can share or not. In theory if you operate one loco and it will not occupy/contact more than one from at any one time, a single DCC80 should work. Fine as long as any wagon/coach wheels do not bridge the insulated joints and trigger the DCC80. Needs a bit of thought and ingenuity to prevent this. I hope this post doesn't attract too many 'harry enfield - you don't want to do it like that responses'.......... If anyone wants more info please message me. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted September 24, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted September 24, 2018 Thank you for the extra info. All of my DCC 80's are working well, and I now have sufficient number of ADS-8SX's to replace my ADS-8FX's and I can use the frog function built in to power the rest of the points. Ian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodge Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Having extreme difficulty in getting autofrogs to work - not switching. Made up a test board (doubling as programming track) with one poin t and threec short rail lengths: i the wiring run from NCE controller is very short, the autofrog operates. If the wiring length from controller to autofrog is several metres long, then it doesn't. Can't find any wiring spec with Gaugemaster. Help! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ianLMS Posted November 6, 2019 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted November 6, 2019 (edited) Rodge - I haven't checked the length of my furthest auto-frog but I would imagine its connected to the BUS which is only 3m worth of cable away from the controller. I don't have any issues with mine not switching. Any issues I did have were down to me not connecting it properly, or on at least two of my Peco points, the frog wire had come away from the frog, requiring a jumper wire to be soldered between the two rails and then through the baseboard.. Edited November 6, 2019 by ianLMS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 On 03/07/2017 at 14:11, John ks said: As a general rule I insulate both frog rails on all electrofrog trackwork The LH diagram shows a DS with no other point work nearby & only requires 4 IRJs (insulated rail joiners) shown I green The RH diagram shows a bit more complex trackwork , the 3 frogs need separate Autofrogs The minimum number of track feeds needed are shown at positions A & B John In the RH diagram, surely frogs 1 & 3 will anways be the same polarity? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted November 6, 2019 Share Posted November 6, 2019 1 hour ago, dasatcopthorne said: In the RH diagram, surely frogs 1 & 3 will anways be the same polarity? Dave Dave I can see 4 possible routes that can be set Routes a-d & c-e different polarity b-d & c-e same polarity a-e same polarity b-e different polarity Of these 4 routes only 2 are the same polarity. Hope this helps John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 06/11/2019 at 12:31, John ks said: Dave I can see 4 possible routes that can be set Routes a-d & c-e different polarity b-d & c-e same polarity a-e same polarity b-e different polarity Of these 4 routes only 2 are the same polarity. Hope this helps John You're quite right of course. Why didn't I notice that was a double slip?? I give up!! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meatloaf Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 I don't really need a point motor but if I use the DCC80 will it still switch the frog polarity? If so does that mean the point blade is only essentially there to set the direction the train travels thru the point? Will I need to make the modifications to the point ive seen online - bonding the rails together and snipping the little bridge wire? The instructions for the autofrog don't say. My points at present are exactly as they come from the box And finally it looks like the DCC80 only needs 3 wires - the track feeds and the frog wire. The track feeds can they come from the DCC bus or do they need to come direct from the point? Sorry for the newbie questions Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 3 hours ago, meatloaf said: I don't really need a point motor No but if I use the DCC80 will it still switch the frog polarity? Yes If so does that mean the point blade is only essentially there to set the direction the train travels thru the point? Yes Will I need to make the modifications to the point ive seen online - bonding the rails together and snipping the little bridge wire? Maybe. If you make the modifications then you don't rely on the point blades for conductivity but some form of frog switching is necessary EG DCC80 etc The instructions for the autofrog don't say. My points at present are exactly as they come from the box If you are happy to rely on the point blades to power the frog then no modifications are necessary & a DCC80 is not necessary And finally it looks like the DCC80 only needs 3 wires - the track feeds and the frog wire. The track feeds can they come from the DCC bus or do they need to come direct from the point? If your DCC bus is near the point then from the bus is the best option Sorry for the newbie questions John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted March 10, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2020 10 hours ago, meatloaf said: I don't really need a point motor but if I use the DCC80 will it still switch the frog polarity? If so does that mean the point blade is only essentially there to set the direction the train travels thru the point? Will I need to make the modifications to the point ive seen online - bonding the rails together and snipping the little bridge wire? The instructions for the autofrog don't say. My points at present are exactly as they come from the box And finally it looks like the DCC80 only needs 3 wires - the track feeds and the frog wire. The track feeds can they come from the DCC bus or do they need to come direct from the point? Sorry for the newbie questions Assuming this is a Peco Electrofrog double-slip then you must have frog polarity switching - the point blades do not power the frogs as they do on simple points. This can either be via a DCC80 or via a point motor with built-in switches such as the Tortoise. There are no modifications possible on the slip as on simple points. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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