Class 319 Flex for Wales

[DavidB-AU]

The Welsh Government is to provide £1·9m and operator Arriva Trains Wales £1m to lease five Class 319 Flex electro-diesel multiple-units for use on the Wales & Borders franchise from 2018 until at least 2021.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/class-319-flex-electro-diesel-multiple-units-for-wales.html

[John M Upton]

That's probably the best hope for the ex LT D Stock Class 230 dead and buried then.

[CovDriver]

We are getting the 230 unit back apparently for the Coventry - Nuneatons but that's all I know at the moment.

[br2975]

Only as cover whilst the ATW Pacers are refurbished to become DDA compliant; I'd wager.

.

ATW are no doubt unwilling to fund such refurbishment with less than a tomato season of their franchise remaining, and no guarantee they will be successful in bidding for the next Welsh franchise.

.

So, having suffered at the hands of both the WAG and ATW, why am I sceptical that (a) the Cl.319s will remain after the Pacers have been refurbished, and (b) the refurbished Pacers will ever be replaced by something worth drooling over, and  built  assembled in Wales by CAF ?

[Fenman]

The Welsh Government is to provide £1·9m and operator Arriva Trains Wales £1m to lease five Class 319 Flex electro-diesel multiple-units for use on the Wales & Borders franchise from 2018 until at least 2021.

 

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/single-view/view/class-319-flex-electro-diesel-multiple-units-for-wales.html

 

Thanks for the link and apologies for this tangent - what I found interesting was the "quote" from the minister:

 

"The agreement to secure these trains is one part of a number of agreements with rail industry bodies that ensure that the majority of the current Wales & Borders fleet will comply with Persons of Reduced Mobility regulations by January 1 2020."

 

Obviously we all know that the quote will have been written by some junior PR person in the minister's department, but does anyone think any real, sentient human being actually talks like that?

 

No wonder there is apparently a growing sense of distance between "normal (sic) people" and "The Elite". Every statement feels to me like we are being treated as either dumb consumers or potentially insolent upstarts.

 

Sorry for OT rant...

 

Paul

[tamperman36]

I thought that all the pacers where to be withdrawn by 2020 so its pointless doing any refurbishment work or modifications to them.

[Paul.Uni]

I thought that all the pacers where to be withdrawn by 2020 so its pointless doing any refurbishment work or modifications to them.

 

The link in the first post states that the 319s will allow work to be carried out on the 150s and 158s.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Paul.Uni

[black and decker boy]

I think technically, the Westminster government that promised the total replacement of pacers were talking only about Northern. As the 2 main people making that promise, (Cameron & osbourne) have left politics and the W&B franchise spec is being written by the WAG, I'd expect any inferred DfT promise to evaporate and become an "internal matter" for Wales.

 

We know they can make the 143&144 fleets compliant if they want to and any new stock may be 5 or 6 years away IF they opt for a light rail solution in the Valleys (time needed to refurbish the network & put up OLE etc). That might be enough time to make lease costs bearable.

['CHARD]

 

No wonder there is apparently a growing sense of distance between "normal (sic) people" and "The Elite". Every statement feels to me like we are being treated as either dumb consumers or potentially insolent upstarts.

 

 

Fantastic that, Paul!   

['CHARD]

I think technically, the Westminster government that promised the total replacement of pacers were talking only about Northern. As the 2 main people making that promise, (Cameron & osbourne) have left politics and the W&B franchise spec is being written by the WAG, I'd expect any inferred DfT promise to evaporate and become an "internal matter" for Wales.

 

We know they can make the 143&144 fleets compliant if they want to and any new stock may be 5 or 6 years away IF they opt for a light rail solution in the Valleys (time needed to refurbish the network & put up OLE etc). That might be enough time to make lease costs bearable.

 

144s are not in Wales at present, but as you are hinting, they could migrate to Wales from 2019 to eliminate the 142s.

[black and decker boy]

I think the 144s are being released by Northern first so next year with the 142s set to finish through 2019. That would give time for upgrades before a move to Wales.

[Phatbob]

One ATW route that could benefit enormously from the introduction of 319 Flex units would be the Wreham to Bidston line.  They could enable the services to be extended from Bidston to Liverpool James Street.  After all, very few of the punters want to go to Bidston, they want to go to Liverpool and Birkenhead.  Through running would increase patronage on this route and increasing the train length from two cars to four cars would enable that.  It is my understanding that although diesels are permitted through the Mersey rail tunnel (I've seen Network Rail  MPVs running out of the tunnel through Birkenhead Hamilton Square station), trains carrying fuel are not permitted through the single track tunnels beyond James Street Station.  Even so, changing trains at James Street to get to Liverpool city centre has got to be a more attractive option than changing trains at Bidston.  There is even a dissused turnback platform at James Street that could be recommissioned for the use of these services.

[Phatbob]

P.S.  The 319 flex units will also be handy once the wires have gone up in the Valleys.

[Zomboid]

I don't think they'd work as Wrexham to Liverpool trains - as I understand it they work by convincing the old control system that it's running on DC when the diesel is running.

(Never mind that they're slow by comparison to 50x units and there may not be paths)

['CHARD]

One ATW route that could benefit enormously from the introduction of 319 Flex units would be the Wreham to Bidston line.  They could enable the services to be extended from Bidston to Liverpool James Street.  After all, very few of the punters want to go to Bidston, they want to go to Liverpool and Birkenhead.  Through running would increase patronage on this route and increasing the train length from two cars to four cars would enable that.  It is my understanding that although diesels are permitted through the Mersey rail tunnel (I've seen Network Rail  MPVs running out of the tunnel through Birkenhead Hamilton Square station), trains carrying fuel are not permitted through the single track tunnels beyond James Street Station.  Even so, changing trains at James Street to get to Liverpool city centre has got to be a more attractive option than changing trains at Bidston.  There is even a dissused turnback platform at James Street that could be recommissioned for the use of these services.

 

James Street?  Not without a huge amount of upheaval - this would mean working Wales and Borders trains onto the Merseyrail network, recasting of that timetable especially into the central Loop, which is already optimised for 507/ 508s and will be even more tightly worked when the new trains are introduced.  319s are not tripcock fitted, and they would also require new flange lubrication equipment.  I expect their length would also require provision of dual platform camera equipment.  Including crew training on top of this, I don't see a business case.  And furthermore, the bidders for the next franchise won't have included it in their train plan.  

 

Birkenhead?  North station - only if the Wrexham/ Bidstons could get turned round and away between the New Brightons and West Kirbys.  The track layout doesn't permit the use of platform 1 for turning back services in the Bidston direction, and the headways on both up and down lines are 10,5,10,5 minutes.  I don't see that happening either.

 

P.S.  The 319 flex units will also be handy once the wires have gone up in the Valleys.

 

Not if the valleys are converted to light rail, as TfW wishes.

[Wild Boar Fell]

"The agreement to secure these trains is one part of a number of agreements with rail industry bodies that ensure that the majority of the current Wales & Borders fleet will comply with Persons of Reduced Mobility regulations by January 1 2020."

 

1st thing I picked up on was the use of 'majority', whether that is because not all fleets will still be there, or whether it is more a case of we can't convert units fast enough, I am interested to find out. Imagine there will be a few more items of 'homeless' stock moving across the border. Do all the Anglia DMU fleets have new homes allocated yet?

 

Wild Boar Fell

['CHARD]

 

"The agreement to secure these trains is one part of a number of agreements with rail industry bodies that ensure that the majority of the current Wales & Borders fleet will comply with Persons of Reduced Mobility regulations by January 1 2020."

 

1st thing I picked up on was the use of 'majority', whether that is because not all fleets will still be there, or whether it is more a case of we can't convert units fast enough, I am interested to find out. Imagine there will be a few more items of 'homeless' stock moving across the border. Do all the Anglia DMU fleets have new homes allocated yet?

 

Wild Boar Fell

 

 

None of the ex-Anglia DMUs are signed up yet.  But then, nor are all the DMUs coming out of Scotland, off Hull Trains, Trans Pennine Express or Great Western.

 

Regarding the DMUs remaining in the principality on 1st January 2020, no-one knows what they will comprise until the successful Wales bidder is decided.

[phil-b259]

James Street?  Not without a huge amount of upheaval - this would mean working Wales and Borders trains onto the Merseyrail network, recasting of that timetable especially into the central Loop, which is already optimised for 507/ 508s and will be even more tightly worked when the new trains are introduced.  319s are not tripcock fitted, and they would also require new flange lubrication equipment.  I expect their length would also require provision of dual platform camera equipment.  Including crew training on top of this, I don't see a business case.  And furthermore, the bidders for the next franchise won't have included it in their train plan. 

 

Length wise the 319s are 20m long vehicles, exactly the same as the 507 / 508 EMUs - and in fact the Thameslink tunnels were a very tight fit for them so they shouldn't have any trouble on MerseyRail tunnels.

 

The lack of Tripcocks is an issue however - although that could potentially be alleviated by ensuring comprehensive TPWS fitment to every signal if stakeholders really wanted to use them.

[phil-b259]

I thought that all the pacers where to be withdrawn by 2020 so its pointless doing any refurbishment work or modifications to them.

 

That was before NRs electrification woes (and the subsequent postponing / delaying of planned schemes which were expected to free up large numbers of other DMUs which could be cascaded).

 

With the 2020 deadline looming TOCs and leasing companies have been forced into making plans to make the Pacers compliant - hence the Welsh plan to take on a few bi-mode 319s to cover the necessary refurbishment / modifications.

['CHARD]

Length wise the 319s are 20m long vehicles, exactly the same as the 507 / 508 EMUs - and in fact the Thameslink tunnels were a very tight fit for them so they shouldn't have any trouble on MerseyRail tunnels.

 

The lack of Tripcocks is an issue however - although that could potentially be alleviated by ensuring comprehensive TPWS fitment to every signal if stakeholders really wanted to use them.

 

Sorry, when I said 'tightly worked' I meant in terms of headways between trains, not the gauging issue!!!!

[wombatofludham]

The most obvious place for the 319s would be North Wales to North West services.  The Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe services could make use of their dual 25kv and diesel operation and their introduction could remove the need for the expensive Class 67 and short Mk3 rake used on the Manchester commuter run.  It might also assist in extending services to Manchester Airport.  In so doing it will free up 175, 158 and 150 stock for redeployment, especially 150s which would be useful in hwntw land.

['CHARD]

That was before NRs electrification woes (and the subsequent postponing / delaying of planned schemes which were expected to free up large numbers of other DMUs which could be cascaded).

 

With the 2020 deadline looming TOCs and leasing companies have been forced into making plans to make the Pacers compliant - hence the Welsh plan to take on a few bi-mode 319s to cover the necessary refurbishment / modifications.

 

The 150s are the critical issue in Wales really - none of them have had the PRM-TSI modifications yet.  For Class 158 it is less intrusive, mainly relating to the PIS equipment, but on the 150s - assuming they stay in the Welsh fleet after 2019 - the toilets have to be rebuilt, and there's insufficient capacity to release units in time should the next franchisee retain them.

['CHARD]

The most obvious place for the 319s would be North Wales to North West services.  The Liverpool, Manchester and Crewe services could make use of their dual 25kv and diesel operation and their introduction could remove the need for the expensive Class 67 and short Mk3 rake used on the Manchester commuter run.  It might also assist in extending services to Manchester Airport.  In so doing it will free up 175, 158 and 150 stock for redeployment, especially 150s which would be useful in hwntw land.

 

I don't believe that the power to weight ratio will enable an empty, let alone crush laden, Class 769 to keep to 67 and stock timings on the non-electrified sections.  Not sure if revenue abstraction will allow extension of services to MIA either TBH.

[wombatofludham]

ATW were granted approval to increase North Wales to Manchester Airport services in 2016 from 17 to 57 per week.  All stopping at East Didsbury as well.

[frobisher]

I don't think they'd work as Wrexham to Liverpool trains - as I understand it they work by convincing the old control system that it's running on DC when the diesel is running.

(Never mind that they're slow by comparison to 50x units and there may not be paths)

I can't actually see that as a problem, you can easily protect the motor-generator set from back EMF, and obviously if you're working with lowered third rail shoes then you have an existing system of interlocks you can dip into to control it all.