What is happening to the 00 market?

[orford]

Yes but unlike soft furnishing retailers I very much doubt Hornby, Bachmann, etc factor in offering big discounts when they are designing their models.

 

In general when the likes of DFS offer a sofa for  50% off *e.g. £500 versus £1000, then that sofa has been designed to be sold for £500 from the outset. To get round trading rules regarding sale prices they charge the full retail price at times when they know trade will be slack (e.g. in the run up to Christmas once the final 'guaranteed for Christmas delivery' has passed.

Deleted.

Edited August 11, 2017 by orford

[adb968008]

Its a very thin line that is trod between selling fewer items at a greater price or make more items and sell at a discount after an initial rush has been satisfied.

 

What is never known by most is the cost of the items from China, the fewer items manufactured the greater the individual unit cost price as the development costs are shared between fewer items, plus larger orders result in a reduction of cost per unit

 

You can get a reasonable idea here... click through the images you may recognise some examples of their workmanship..

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/ho-scale-train-model_60023202638.html?spm=a2700.7724857.2017115.222.2bd13975Veny7c

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Shine-Dew-professional-1-87-ho_218249588.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.13.492934dcVwD85c

 

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/OEM-ODM-custom-3D-diecast-antique_60530790159.html?spm=a2700.7724857.main07.30.492934dcVwD85c

 

Their is a current theme here... MOQ (Minimum order quantity), there not going to do limited editions of 50... it's +1000 or nothing, the price may be going up as fast as the pound goes down, but the MOQ doesn't change... if you can't sell 1000, then don't risk making it, as the "thin line" might turn out to be a tight rope or a noose, but either way it may not be in your influence.

 

The lowest risk future is EMUs/DMUs/Coaches and wagons.. if you found a nice 2 coach emu, made up of two identical cars end to end.. you only 500 as an MOQ... trouble is most DMUs/EMUs aren't identical.. take the humble 142.. the cars are pretty much identical..except someone out a loo in one of them.

Edited August 12, 2017 by adb968008

[Roger Sunderland]

I think its quite poor to make the definition of being a modeller as someone who can fix a problem with a model, or re-paint one to the same high standard as the manufacturers.

 

That's why it's called railway MODELLING and not collecting or buying models of trains, isn't it?

[Chris M]

That's why it's called railway MODELLING and not collecting or buying models of trains, isn't it?

This is going rather off topic. Anybody buying stock whether to collect or run is helping to keep the market alive and therefore good for the hobby. Anyone who succeeds in building a working, scenic model railway has achieved something. I say they can be called a Railway Modeller because they have built a model railway. There are many levels of modelling from purely buying rtr stuff to making everything from scratch. All should be welcomed as part of the modelling fraternity. We might not like what some others have done but we should respect that they have done something.

Many years ago I used to build locos from kits but now I buy rtr because they are so much better than I could ever make. I rarely do repaints these days for the same reason, and of course the range of liveries now is so great. I still add the details they come with and add a bit of weathering but that's about all. I still call myself a modeller as I create a model scene and my work seems to be appreciated at exhibitions.

[orford]

Whoa. This one could go on for ages and become quite contentious.  The point here is that we are all model railway ENTHUSIASTS, regardless of any particular individual's skill and abilities in terms of actual model making. There are those who can create the most exqisite models from scratch using the finest metals and materials, those who are adept at modifying, improving, altering or detailing ready-to-run models and those who are simply content to buy out of the box and get great pleasure from just running or admiring those models as they are. All contribute to the hobby in their own way.

 

Not everyone has the same level of skill and experience. I count myself as a reasonably competant model maker in many areas and receive many plaudits from around the world for many of my efforts (probably quite undeserved) - but the skills, tools and experience which enables me to build models to the standard which I do, took me some 45 years to aquire. The level I have reached did not come overnight by any means. Even so, I am still nowhere even remotely near the standard of many, many fine modelmakers around the world...and never will be - for instance I never have had the ability to scratch build a locomotive chassis which actually works and I still struggle greatly with any kind of brass kit, which others find completely straightforward.The point being, everyone is different. What one finds easy, another finds hard. But they are all railway modellers in their own way.

 

When I was chairman of The 7mm Narrow Gauge Association, which I founded back in 1979, we had a member (sadly no longer with us) who was very probably the worst railway model builder on the planet. He produced narrow gauge model trains by the dozen from what was essentially scrap - bits of card from cornflake boxes, lollipop sticks, string and whatever else came to hand. The resultant models were truly diabolical, devoid of paint, mis-shapen, out of scale, of inconsistent scale. bearing no relation whatsoever to any known prototype and so on. They were truly horrific. He was as a result, the butt of many jokes from other modellers both within and outside of the Association. However, the guy had a lifelong mental disability, no fault of his own, he was born with it. He lived in a mental hospital in the midlands for most of his life. But to him, those models were perfect and he didn't hesitate to enter them for Association competitions ot to put them on public display. More than once as Chairman of the Association, I was taken to task over it... "Why do you allow that?", etc. But I always had a lot of time for that person because he tried. And he produced 'models' to the best of his own very limited ability. And he got great pleasure from thereby being part of the railway modelling community. One year, I awarded him a cup for 'best effort' or something of that sort, I forget now the precise details. But it made his life. I tell this story because he was just as much a railway modeller as the guy scratch building an LNER Garratt from brass in 'N' gauge!

 

So let's not argue or debate about what constitutes a 'modeller'. Life's far too short. Just enjoy your hobby at whatever level you choose.

Edited August 12, 2017 by orford

[bike2steam]

Let's not over react, in a way Roger is right, there are the two distinct camps within the broader church of 'railway modeling', and people should accept such and not to get upset by the distinction. Both are important for the manufacturers sake as Chris M has said, and people should accept it as such, no 'us and them' it's just immature.

[Dunsignalling]

Let's not over react, in a way Roger is right, there are the two distinct camps within the broader church of 'railway modeling', and people should accept such and not to get upset by the distinction. Both are important for the manufacturers sake as Chris M has said, and people should accept it as such, no 'us and them' it's just immature.

Indeed; and outside those two camps are the collectors, including some who don't know if their locos actually work because they don't even open the boxes.

 

Their contribution to the size of the overall market is considerable. Without them, we "modellers" (of all categories) would be offered rather fewer new models at somewhat higher prices. 

 

John

Edited August 12, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Roger Sunderland]

Yep I agree with all your comments and I wasn't meaning to be contentious, there is room in the hobby for everyone, however I'm sure none of us, including the "greats" we're born being good or even adequate modellers but as Orfords heart warming story about the guy in his club shows, it's the trying that matters, irrespective of the results, and quite often the more you try the better you get.

[adb968008]

I think its quite poor to make the definition of being a modeller as someone who can fix a problem with a model, or re-paint one to the same high standard as the manufacturers.

 

I think

A modeller is anyone who can do anything with a model.

A collector is anyone who buys them to have a collection.

 

You can do both,

I have a good sized collection and I've done lots of models in my time.

Edited August 12, 2017 by adb968008

[Retro_man]

I think

A modeller is anyone who can do anything with a model.

A collector is anyone who buys them to have a collection.

 

You can do both,

I have a good sized collection and I've done lots of models in my time.

 

They are both "model railway enthusiasts"...

 

But why do we have to have labels?

[adb968008]

They are both "model railway enthusiasts"...

 

But why do we have to have labels?

Human nature, everything must have a label, and in more recent times a SKU to price it.

 

(Human is itself a label for homosapiens, and sometimes Neanderthals).

Edited August 12, 2017 by adb968008

[Andy Hayter]

Human nature adb?

 

I am less sure.  Labels are applied by those who have more interest in their own needs than yours.

 

Typically they will be sociologists, politicians, marketeers etc. who use these labels to describe who you and similar folk are, and how are likely to behave.

 

You will be labelled/ pigeonholed by (for example):

 

Nationalty

Sex and sexuality

Age

Political leanings

Income

Social Group

Area where you live

(if you have a loyalty card) what sorts of things you buy

(if you do not delete cookies) what sort of things you are interested in based on what internet sites you have visited

Modeller 

Collector 

etc

 

 

I am not at all sure just how useful collector/modeller labels are.  I have many models/kits/bits and pieces which are set aside for a possible future project.  Until that project comes to any sort of fruition I guess these are collector items (frequently MIB).  Equally I have projects completed and underway and can consider myself as a modeller.

 

I acknowledge however that there are pure collectors whose purpose is to possess a model and not to use it.  Is that a problem?  Not really they help support the people who make the models which I use as a modeller and so help keep costs down.  Just occasionally when a manufacturer gets it wrong (and I am not setting any blame on them) the collectors dictate the value of models to the rest of the community - well so be it.  Learn to live with life's disappointments (or of you got one when released life's joys).

[davetheroad]

......I acknowledge however that there are pure collectors whose purpose is to possess a model and not to use it.  Is that a problem?  Not really they help support the people who make the models which I use as a modeller and so help keep costs down.  Just occasionally when a manufacturer gets it wrong (and I am not setting any blame on them) the collectors dictate the value of models to the rest of the community - well so be it.  Learn to live with life's disappointments (or of you got one when released life's joys).

 

It could be said that 'collectors' put the cost up if manufacturers feel they need to include stuff like sprung buffers. I can't see any practical purpose for them , they are as much use as a cat flap in a submarine!.

 

I was in the market for MK1 coaches in blue and grey. Bachmann have them for £30 plus and Hornby have some pending for a similar price.  Why? Would not producing the Railroad version for £15 make as much profit? Buying 12 of em is eye wateringly expensive when you just want to run them on your layout

[Jol Wilkinson]

Let's not over react, in a way Roger is right, there are the two distinct camps within the broader church of 'railway modeling', and people should accept such and not to get upset by the distinction. Both are important for the manufacturers sake as Chris M has said, and people should accept it as such, no 'us and them' it's just immature.

Ah, the broad church philosophy. I consider it is more like a collection of different places of worship, church, chapel, synagogue, mosque, etc. Those attending share a belief in miniature models with wheels and running on rails, but often little else. little 

 

Indeed; and outside those two camps are the collectors, including some who don't know if their locos actually work because they don't even open the boxes.

 

Their contribution to the size of the overall market is considerable. Without them, we "modellers" (of all categories) would be offered rather fewer new models at somewhat higher prices. 

 

John

As a model make/kit builder, can you explain how what goes on in the RTR market place is of benefit to me. If anything, it seems that the greatly improved RTR models available today have done little or nothing to improve the supply of kits and bits. As discussed elsewhere, they may even have had a damaging effect.

 

They are both "model railway enthusiasts"...

 

But why do we have to have labels?

I am model making enthusiast, with an interest in the LNWR. I do not regard myself as a model railway enthusiast, as that implies I am interested in all and any model railways. We have "labels" to describe what we are or do. When someone asked what hobby I have, I reply by saying model maker, because that more accurately describes what I do and enjoy.

 

Looking at the model railway market as I believe the OP meant (RTR mass produced products), then it seems to be going the same way as most consumer goods. A mixture of purchasing a particular item as soon as it is available to be "on trend" and where hence price is a therefore lesser consideration, or discount driven purchasing. This thread and the various wish list and frothing threads provide evidence of that. Either way, "modellers" end up with a choice of models from a range of models chosen by a manufacturer. Increasingly that choice seems to be driven by what is available for ease of research and production (e.g. 3D scanning of existing and preserved prototypes). Obviously manufacturers will seek to produce products that attract maximum demand at the lowest production cost. The ideal would be to manufacture a quantity where sales exactly match demand, but it would take a miracle to get that right.

[The Johnster]

I regard myself as a railway modeller, as I personally find the word 'enthusiast' to have derogatory overtones and associate it with 'anorak' and 'nerd'.  I'm allowed to use those terms about myself, but anyone else doing so gets short shrift, and 'train set' is never tolerated without some sort of retaliation...

[Andy Hayter]

 

 

It could be said that 'collectors' put the cost up if manufacturers feel they need to include stuff like sprung buffers. I can't see any practical purpose for them , they are as much use as a cat flap in a submarine!.

 

 

 

 

If you use the supplied tension lock couplings, then I agree that sprung buffers have no purpose.  However some modellers use other and more realistic looking close coupling systems where sprung buffers are a necessity on sharper curves.

 

Edited to add:  I am actually rather sceptical whether it is the collector that requires sprung buffers, since his model will never need to use them.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Andy Hayter

[Vespa]

Some very interesting replies and views. I was particularly taken by the story of the poor chap with the mental illness problem and his efforts at modelling. I see it this way. We all have skills and some peoples' skills are very limited but as long as they are getting pleasure from their efforts that is all that matters. I read a few modelling mags and see some truly lousy sloppy work on featured layouts. Could I do any better? Possibly not. I can paint an even distinguishing joint between two colours unlike some by using masking tape. I see in nearly every photo locos with skew wift lamps. The worst painted items of all are people with many looking like they have been done at play school. So what am I moaning on about? Well nothing really as those people have made great efforts to their abilities and had their layouts featured in a magazine which is more that can be said of some critics. All our skills are limited and as long as we accept that and enjoy modelling or just collecting, that is what it's all about, having the pleasure of messing with trains. I think we have gone off topic but never mind.

[Nearholmer]

Hmmmm ........

 

Based on the foregoing, it might be worth suppliers operating a policy of 'market segmentation', to maximise their returns.

 

Each product could be offered under two 'brands' in distinct packaging:

 

- Collectors Edition, which would be numbered, have acertificate, a box that doubles as a display unit, really difficult to remove screws fixing it to a display base etc

 

- Modellers Edition, In a package that doubles as a sort of cradle for use in a FY, inside a box that somehow makes you feel that might contain a kit etc

 

The products would be identical, but the packaging would positively reinforce self-image, aid sneering in both directions etc.

 

Just an idea.

 

Kevin

[brianusa]

Is it really necessary to compartmentalise those who purchase model trains?  We all enjoy our chosen aspect of the hobby; I have a tinplate layout of British and American trains and I don't' expect to be derided because of my choice of modelling.  If you are a scale person (insert your own adjective), then enjoy your aspect of this hobby.  RM Web has sections for various modelling preferences and many comment on each others efforts to recognise other modellers expertise in the hobby.

 

Brian

[Dunsignalling]

Ah, the broad church philosophy. I consider it is more like a collection of different places of worship, church, chapel, synagogue, mosque, etc. Those attending share a belief in miniature models with wheels and running on rails, but often little else. little 

 

As a model make/kit builder, can you explain how what goes on in the RTR market place is of benefit to me. If anything, it seems that the greatly improved RTR models available today have done little or nothing to improve the supply of kits and bits. As discussed elsewhere, they may even have had a damaging effect.

 

I am model making enthusiast, with an interest in the LNWR. I do not regard myself as a model railway enthusiast, as that implies I am interested in all and any model railways. We have "labels" to describe what we are or do. When someone asked what hobby I have, I reply by saying model maker, because that more accurately describes what I do and enjoy.

 

Looking at the model railway market as I believe the OP meant (RTR mass produced products), then it seems to be going the same way as most consumer goods. A mixture of purchasing a particular item as soon as it is available to be "on trend" and where hence price is a therefore lesser consideration, or discount driven purchasing. This thread and the various wish list and frothing threads provide evidence of that. Either way, "modellers" end up with a choice of models from a range of models chosen by a manufacturer. Increasingly that choice seems to be driven by what is available for ease of research and production (e.g. 3D scanning of existing and preserved prototypes). Obviously manufacturers will seek to produce products that attract maximum demand at the lowest production cost. The ideal would be to manufacture a quantity where sales exactly match demand, but it would take a miracle to get that right.

This thread is turning into something of an onion-peeling exercise - the layers are virtually innumerable, depending on which segment of the hobby each of us immerses ourselves in, and how deeply.

 

For myself, the term r-t-r is pretty much redundant because no model so defined that I buy will ever appear in public in its as-bought state. I don't count testing/running in on the club layout as public. Some of my tweaking (referred to by some, perhaps with good reason, as hacking) is sufficiently "extensive" as to border on semi-scratchbuilding. it's certainly more adventurous (and risky to the model) than most of my kit-building!

 

I reckon that makes me a modeller, its just that my raw materials are perhaps less raw than yours. I do scratchbuild, but "only" buildings so far.

 

However, my stash of models awaiting molestation is considerable and some await their destiny in a display cabinet so I guess that must make me a collector................

 

John

Edited August 13, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Colin_McLeod]

I regard myself as a railway modeller, as I personally find the word 'enthusiast' to have derogatory overtones and associate it with 'anorak' and 'nerd'.  I'm allowed to use those terms about myself, but anyone else doing so gets short shrift, and 'train set' is never tolerated without some sort of retaliation...

Instead of describing myself as a "Railway enthusiast", with all its anorak associations, I prefer the description "enthusiastic railwayman"

 

Not sure how that applies if you don't work on the railway.

[bike2steam]

Also some of us just don't give a damn, I'm a ( British steam outline) railway enthusiast/modeler, and don't care what people say, that's their problem, sometimes life teaches you to be 'thick-skinned' or you just become a nervous wreck - sorry for going OT.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...As a model make/kit builder, can you explain how what goes on in the RTR market place is of benefit to me. If anything, it seems that the greatly improved RTR models available today have done little or nothing to improve the supply of kits and bits. As discussed elsewhere, they may even have had a damaging effect...

I suspect that the presence of RTR may still be beneficial to you, by this argument.

 

When I as a young person wanted a model railway to represent the very interesting operations on the real thing, it was inevitably RTR. Having been 'recruited', and sometime later (1960s) having come to an appreciation that what could be purchased RTR did not cover most of the subjects I really wanted,  a move toward kit and scratch building came next. So I became a purchaser of the 'kits and bits'.

 

While the volume of new recruits via RTR may be smaller nowadays, there are still people being recruited to the hobby and a proportion of them 'moving on' in that way: some of which has been in evidence on this site over the years it has operated. It is possible that these new customers for 'kits and bits' have made the difference in sales volume to keep the surviving supplying businesses viable.

[GeoffAlan]

Over the the 148th scale world of N gauge the same applies. Bargains turn up at a goodly discount on the 'normal' price, which was a bit below the launch price of the item anyway. I suspect part of it is that once the manufacturer has recouped the R&D on the first x hundred units then the price of production, less R&D, allows a much lower price to be charged.

 

I was recently tempted my a Stanier Black 5 in LMS livery at £79, MRP of £129.99, usual price around £100 IIRC. Sadly both the first to arrive, and the second, would not run correctly at all. So I still haven't got an LMS Black 5!