Hornby TTS Sound Class 31

[JSpencer]

Personally, I'm thinking about getting a couple of Class 31 sound systems when they come out to fit into two blue Class 31s that I got from Hattons when they were selling them cheaply a couple of years ago.

Funny, that is my idea except I brought just 1 full fat 31 for £55 (or there abouts). It will be my first sound loco for less than £100 (and maybe the last - I cannot think of any other loco I have that cost around £50 which could have TTS sound).

Edited August 3, 2017 by JSpencer

[richierich]

Some might think its nit picking, but the Hornby have used refurbished under frame, without the buffer beam fairing and a mirrless exhaust port central bodyshell (which might be correct for the period this 31 is modelled in).

 

Overall, it sounds ok. Might be worth investigating using the DCC sound system or chassis with super detailed Lima 31 bodies. 

[SDJR7F88]

The Tech 6 covers far more than 9 functions as you just press shift to access more functions .

Yes, it does up to 29

Edited August 4, 2017 by SDJR7F88

[bob hughes60]

Hornby price all their TTS separate sound chips at £39.99 here -

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/power-control/tts-sound-decoders.html

 

But I do not know whether this includes the speaker. I kind of assume it's all wired up together and ready to plug in/ go, but not sure.

 

I rather fancied taking a punt on one of these skinheads (for conversion to P4 and see what sound was like in the flesh on a home layout) until I read they have traction tyres. Never mind, saved some money.

 

Izzy

 

The answer is yes at least it was for the Crosti 9F I bought off Rails.Had to lengthen the wires to the speaker though.

Bob hughes

[Enterprisingwestern]

Some might think its nit picking, but the Hornby have used refurbished under frame, without the buffer beam fairing and a mirrless exhaust port central bodyshell (which might be correct for the period this 31 is modelled in).

 

Overall, it sounds ok. Might be worth investigating using the DCC sound system or chassis with super detailed Lima 31 bodies. 

 

Now you've confused me even more, I thought the Railroad body was the Lima moulding?

 

Mike.

[Legend]

Now you've confused me even more, I thought the Railroad body was the Lima moulding?

 

Mike.

 

It is

 

I think Richie means this might enable you to swap it with other Lima bodies to get the version you want. From memory Lima churned out lots of versions over the years . Wasn't there a blue Hornby Railroad one as well?

[Hroth]

It is

 

I think Richie means this might enable you to swap it with other Lima bodies to get the version you want. From memory Lima churned out lots of versions over the years . Wasn't there a blue Hornby Railroad one as well?

Yes, R3067, which is 31256 with the waistband and nosedoors removed.  Its almosr as bad a Box Diesel as the Metrovic C0-B0, very plain!

 

Well, that is according to the picture on the Hornby site, though the Hattons photo seems to show the waistband in situ.  Most odd!

Edited August 4, 2017 by Hroth

[SRman]

I did the same thing using a non-sound RailRoad chassis and a Lima body I had already detailed up with separate handrails on the front. Any Lima class 30 or 31 body should fit straight onto the Hornby chassis.

[John Tomlinson]

Some might think its nit picking, but the Hornby have used refurbished under frame, without the buffer beam fairing and a mirrless exhaust port central bodyshell (which might be correct for the period this 31 is modelled in).

 

Overall, it sounds ok. Might be worth investigating using the DCC sound system or chassis with super detailed Lima 31 bodies. 

 

Not nit picking at all, and the main flaw with these Hornby Railroad Brush 2's, see my post at #57 above.

 

John.

[Izzy]

Mine is now quite happily running around on my P4 layout/test plank. Some 'adjustments' to the body/underframe is now being started. The sound is quite good enough for my needs, indeed it seems quite impressive. It is the first sound loco I have bought, but how it could be bettered I am not sure.

 

However, the slow speed running quality isn't perhaps all it could be. It is supposed to have a 5-pole skew armature motor - which I can't confirm because it's a sealed can motor - but the gear reduction is just 16-1 and the motor/gearing judders at a particular rpm, around speed step 3 on the 28 step scale, and worse in one direction than the other. This isn't the Hornby decoder motor parameters because it does the same on Zimo decoders. Perhaps some running in will help because tweaking of motor cv's can't eliminate it, and removing the capacitor across the motor terminals made no difference.

 

Still happy with it though.

 

Izzy

[Hroth]

Very pleased with my Class 31 now I've had it a few days.

 

What I can't fathom is the price disparity between the Railroad TTS Class 31 and the Railroad TTS Class 20, which is £20 dearer at list price!

[John M Upton]

The Class 20 (assuming it hasn't changed since its Lima days) has a cast metal chassis whereas the 31 is Lima's more standard plastic effort so (presumably) more expensive to manufacture.

[jamesg]

Whats the wieght like? Are there any traction tyres? As both the new class 20 and the 47 TTS locos with the tyres all shorted out on my Peco Code 100 points

This happens with the Hornby 121 'Bubblecar' as well - it seems the wheels are too wide.

 

The Class 20 (assuming it hasn't changed since its Lima days) has a cast metal chassis whereas the 31 is Lima's more standard plastic effort so (presumably) more expensive to manufacture.

Going by the service sheet for the Railroad Class 31, the motor bogie looks like a modern can motor inside a Ringfield motor shaped gearbox.  The Class 20 has a centrally mounted motor driving one bogie.  I'm interested to see what the running quality of each is like, I've yet to observe one of the 're-engineered' Railroad models closely.

 

According to BRDatabase, D5551 was re-engined in October 1967.  I can't work out when half or full yellow ends might have been added, but the late sixties sounds about right.  A few were allocated to Bristol Bath Road depot, starting from about 1971.  D5551 was not one of those, but I wonder if any 31's were running out of Bristol in the form modelled by Hornby?

[lapford34102]

 

A few were allocated to Bristol Bath Road depot, starting from about 1971.  D5551 was not one of those, but I wonder if any 31's were running out of Bristol in the form modelled by Hornby?

A lot of info here., not sure there are any "skinheads" pictured

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122584-class-31s-in-br-green-on-western-region/?hl=green

 

Stu

 

Edited too make a bit more sense!

Edited August 4, 2017 by lapford34102

[Hroth]

The Class 20 (assuming it hasn't changed since its Lima days) has a cast metal chassis whereas the 31 is Lima's more standard plastic effort so (presumably) more expensive to manufacture.

I'd forgotten about the Class 20 chassis (and motor arrangement), but even so, a £20 disparity?

 

In the other hand, the price difference between the 31 and the new TTS 37 is a tenner, and the 37 has a similar plastic chassis to the 31!

 

However, I'm not complaining, I might buy another 31......

[John M Upton]

Plus the 31, buffer beam cowling aside, is a lot more accurate than the Frankenstein's Monster that is the mish mashed Class 37 which is noticeably not flying off the shelves anywhere near as fast as the 31...

[John Tomlinson]

This happens with the Hornby 121 'Bubblecar' as well - it seems the wheels are too wide.

 

Going by the service sheet for the Railroad Class 31, the motor bogie looks like a modern can motor inside a Ringfield motor shaped gearbox.  The Class 20 has a centrally mounted motor driving one bogie.  I'm interested to see what the running quality of each is like, I've yet to observe one of the 're-engineered' Railroad models closely.

 

According to BRDatabase, D5551 was re-engined in October 1967.  I can't work out when half or full yellow ends might have been added, but the late sixties sounds about right.  A few were allocated to Bristol Bath Road depot, starting from about 1971.  D5551 was not one of those, but I wonder if any 31's were running out of Bristol in the form modelled by Hornby?

 

The half yellow panels were applied from late 1961 onwards. By and large implementation was within 12-18 months, though there were individual exceptions taking a little longer.

 

The main variance was on the Southern, where some 33's eluded the yellow panels until 1966.

 

As an Eastern Region loco, I'd be amazed if D5551 didn't carry the SYP from 1963 at the latest until repainting into BR Blue, which may have been at the time of re-engining or later.

 

Full yellow panels were applied from 1966 to green locos, and with a small number of well documented exceptions locos in BR Blue carried FYP from the off.

 

As far as service on the Western is concerned, I do seem to remember the odd green FYP 31 around Bristol and on Old Oak in the early 70's, but wouldn't like to say which ones.

 

John.

[John Tomlinson]

Mine is now quite happily running around on my P4 layout/test plank. Some 'adjustments' to the body/underframe is now being started. The sound is quite good enough for my needs, indeed it seems quite impressive. It is the first sound loco I have bought, but how it could be bettered I am not sure.

 

However, the slow speed running quality isn't perhaps all it could be. It is supposed to have a 5-pole skew armature motor - which I can't confirm because it's a sealed can motor - but the gear reduction is just 16-1 and the motor/gearing judders at a particular rpm, around speed step 3 on the 28 step scale, and worse in one direction than the other. This isn't the Hornby decoder motor parameters because it does the same on Zimo decoders. Perhaps some running in will help because tweaking of motor cv's can't eliminate it, and removing the capacitor across the motor terminals made no difference.

 

Still happy with it though.

 

Izzy

 

I've been playing with mine some more today.

 

The sound gets a big plus, I'm starting to get the hang of the driving, and have started to experiment with the CV's.

 

However I did discover on Analogue running that the starting speed is very high in comparison with my other Railroad 31, and that it just stops from time to time. I wonder if anyone else has this experience and has an explanation or solution?

 

There is a little judder at very low speed on DCC running as well, but not enough to complain about in a budget mechanism.

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

[John Tomlinson]

Further to my last post, and I'm sorry if this is getting tedious, but more observations.

 

TTS 31 on analogue with Gaugemaster handheld and chip in place - slow starting speed, identical to my other Railroad 31.

 

TTS 31 on analogue with blanking plate fitted and chip disconnected, with Tech6 & Gaugemaster handheld - slow starting speed as above.

 

TTS31 on analogue with Tech6 and chip in place, high starting speed and periodic cut-out.

 

Other non-chipped analogue locos, including ye olde Lima and Hornby ringfields - excellent slow speed performance with Tech6, best ever for the Lima.

 

So there's clearly something going on between the Tech6 and the TTS chip used in analogue mode. As I don't have any other DCC chipped locos, I don't know how they'd fare in analogue mode with the Tech6, an interesting question that maybe someone can answer?

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

[Izzy]

Further to my last post, and I'm sorry if this is getting tedious, but more observations.

 

TTS 31 on analogue with Gaugemaster handheld and chip in place - slow starting speed, identical to my other Railroad 31.

 

TTS 31 on analogue with blanking plate fitted and chip disconnected, with Tech6 & Gaugemaster handheld - slow starting speed as above.

 

TTS31 on analogue with Tech6 and chip in place, high starting speed and periodic cut-out.

 

Other non-chipped analogue locos, including ye olde Lima and Hornby ringfields - excellent slow speed performance with Tech6, best ever for the Lima.

 

So there's clearly something going on between the Tech6 and the TTS chip used in analogue mode. As I don't have any other DCC chipped locos, I don't know how they'd fare in analogue mode with the Tech6, an interesting question that maybe someone can answer?

 

Many thanks,

 

John.

 

According to the spec sheet with the 31 TTS there are two motor control algorithms that can be used, 1 & 2.  1 is non-linear, 2 is a linear curve. These are set with cv150 the choice being CA1 = 0 and CA2 = 1. The default is 0 (CA1). This gives the slow speed control via cv's 151 &152. The range is 0-255 for both and the defaults are 8/8. For CA2 the cv's are 153 &154 and the settings are 215/115. This gives very fast running at these values at low speed steps.

 

I am just wondering if when the Tech 6 is used in analogue mode with the decoder somehow it is setting CA2 instead of the default CA1.

 

Izzy

[jamesg]

Thank you Stu and John for the information regarding the history of the class.  I've had a quick look into the 'Skinheads' that were allocated to Bristol - I think the only two were D5528 and D5542.  There are photographs of D5542, renumbered as 31124, fitted with a headcode box.  Either my list of Skinheads is wrong, or D5542 has the headcode box fitted later.  I'm yet to find a photograph of D5528 (31110/'Traction Magazine') with a headcode box, but I did find a photograph of it from 1972 carrying BR blue livery.  So, it looks like none of the Bristol allocation ran in any green livery without a headcode box (1973 is a bit late for green anyway).  It's almost certain that by the time any were allocated to the Western Region, they would all have full yellow panels as well.  I have no idea how many had headcode boxes retro-fitted.

 

List of 'Skinheads': D5500-D5519 (original batch), D5520–29/35/39/42/47/51/52/55/56/59/62 (from Wikipedia, well referenced).  Allocation data from brdatabase.info.

 

Izzy, you could be right that a linear curve is used on analogue.  When a decoder is powered, has 'DC conversion' enable and does not detect a DCC signal, it should just pass the track power straight through to the motor.  This doesn't work well with all decoders and controllers, especially where the controller doesn't supply a perfectly smooth voltage to the track.  Controllers with extra features like feedback and PWM usually don't work well with DCC decoders operating in 'DC conversion' mode.

[John Tomlinson]

Many thanks to Izzy and James for the replies.

 

I shall play around further and see how I do.

 

John.

[RAF96]

Can I just add, whilst admitting it is teaching granny to suck eggs to many on here it may be of use to some others...

 

Running DCC “decoder equipped” locomotives on a DC layout.

 

Generally..

Most DCC decoders have the ability to run on a DC analogue system, provided the function is turned “on” within the decoder’s set up (see CV29 bit2 in decoder manual.) By default DC operation is usually enabled. Please check the decoder manual for more information. It must be born in mind that running a DCC fitted loco on a DC layout is a compromise.

 

How it works..

As the analogue throttle is increased the DC voltage on the track increases. The locomotives on-board DCC decoder will start up once minimum threshold of voltage is reached, obviously this will lead to a “start-up lag.” Once the decoder has started its first task is to process the track "signal." The processor has to detect whether a true DCC signal is present or whether it has to translate the DC track voltage to a proportional motor control voltage.

 

Unpredictable performance..

The above process is not an ideal solution but, does allow some form of control of a DCC fitted loco on an analogue track. However, there is a likelihood of the locomotive running unpredictably, or with poor control. This is mainly because DC controller’s employ different methods of DC control.. e.g. regulated DC, half-wave rectification, full-wave rectification or quite likely these days “Pulse Width Modulation,” all these different methods of DC control present different voltage wave forms to the decoder. The decoder start up and continuous running etc will be affected in different ways, leading to a certain amount of deviation in DC performance which may be unpredictable.

 

The important bit apart from the various DC control 'waveforms' is when running a decoder equipped loco on DC nothing much happens until you tweak in an amount of track voltage to get the decoders attention, then it takes a while for things to kick in and follow the rules.

 

Rob

[Ian Hargrave]

Thank you for that,Rob. I have two models....both Hornby ESU equipped which run with restricted but acceptable sound on DC analogue.(Gaugemster)

 

However,thus far "perceived wisdom" states that the sound in TTS equipped models is unavailable ,though operation without sound is possible ,under analogue control.Is this correct ?

[Hroth]

However,thus far "perceived wisdom" states that the sound in TTS equipped models is unavailable ,though operation without sound is possible ,under analogue control.Is this correct ?

Its not really "perceived wisdom", Hornby do state that while a TTS decoder will allow the loco to operate under analogue control, sound will not be available.  Its also interesting that Hornby recently said "look out this Autumn for a further development to our TTS technology...".  I've no idea what they mean by that, but perhaps a feature they might add would be to allow TTS decoders to produce basic engine sounds  under analogue?

 

Wait and see, I suppose!