Anyone Interested in Ships

[peterfgf]

23 hours ago, Bon Accord said:

Calmac are between a rock and a hard place as they don't own the ships or the piers, they're all owned (and built as required) etc by a third party whom they charter the assets from, that being CMAL a government quango.

In railway terms CMAL is basically the equivalent of the ROSCOs and Network Rail combined as one entity.

Calmac in contrast are merely the operators who run the franchise.

CMAL was setup because of the need to "tender" the Calmac franchise every 8 years, so a new body was setup for accountancy purposes so as to seperate the assets.

Prior to that Calmac was like BR in that everything was managed and owned "in house", e.g. the people running the ships and ports were the same people who specified the newbuild ships/ports and maintained the same.

Unfortunately, in the style of classic British management, this company (CMAL) which was setup simply as a box ticking exercise - and not intended to have any real power or influence - has become a monster in it's own right. Not only do they act as if they're a real bona fide shipping company, but they're constantly trying to extend their influence/interference into Calmac's day to day operations. For an example of that attitude have a look at their website and take note of the type of language they use to describe 'their' assets.

There is huge seasonal variation in traffic on most Calmac routes, e.g. rammed full in high summer but with many running near empty in the winter. It would not be cost effective to have enough capacity to carry everything in the summer as you'd then have (expensive) wasted assets lying around all winter haemorrhaging money.

Fast ferries are expensive to run and to be most efficient they need to spend as much of their time as possible at speed. On most Calmac routes this would be difficult because a certain portion of the voyage always occurs in sheltered waters where there are speed limits or restrictions on wash.

Fast ferries (be they cats or otherwise) also do not like bad weather, so they'd be little use in the winter months and if they were used would be very much route specific, which restricts operational flexibility in the network sense.

Put all that together and the simple fact is that it's impossible to build an ideal Calmac ship - there are simply too many variables to consider. The inevitable result is a vessel which has to be a jack of all trades but isn't really outstanding at any one, it also means they'll be more expensive to build and run compared to a ship built only for a specific route or ports, i.e. a one trick pony.

Calmac ports are a mixed bag in terms of age and facilities. Ownership is split between CMAL, various local councils and a number of different harbour authorities or trusts. Most of the ports are historical in terms of geography and do not exist solely for use of the ferry, they're used by fishing vessels, pleasure craft and even cruise ships. Some of them are quite literally the same old wooden Victorian piers originally used by much smaller steamers a century ago albeit much modified over the years.

Standardisation of port facilities within the Calmac empire - something which would be a game changer with regard to building and operating their ships - would be monstrously expensive and time consuming to achieve, that is assuming you could get the many stakeholders to agree to the plan in the first instance.

To sort out the piers and ships so as to provide standardisation, interoperability and the efficiencies that creates you're looking at not a lot shy of a £1 Billion.

You might say that if that's what needs to be done from an entirely logic based perspective then get on with it, and whilst it's a lot of money it is a seriously long term investment paid back over several generations.

However, then factor into your reasoning that the population of all the West Coast islands put together only comes to 40 odd thousand people.

Then ask yourself that if you were a politician and had a billion quid to spend, how many folk on the mainland could you benefit with that money in the short to medium term by building schools, hospitals etc and other big ticket, big PR "quick win" items? The answer is potentially millions of people.

So the choice is spend the cash on a few windswept albeit picturesque rocks on the west coast, or achieve political immortality by building a new super hospital in a city?

No prizes for guessing where the priorities are.

Thank you for a very informative post.  I was involved, from the outside and on the periphery, with CalMac and recognise the situation.

Peterfgf

[62613]

A very sad day today, as it  marks the 50th anniversary of the Royston Grange disaster. She was in collision with the Chinese, Liberian - registered tanker Tien Chee, in thick fog, in the River Plate estuary. After the collision, both ships caught fire, due to spilled oil from the tanker and as a result, all 74 crew and passengers aboard RG, and 8 of the 40 crew of the Tien Chee were killed. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by 62613

[New Haven Neil]

My dad worked for Houlders back then....

[Bon Accord]

As she was in happier times.

[rockershovel]

Re Calmac et al, it's probably relevant to bear in mind that our Nationalised, or at least publicly owned and operated public utilities originated from a catastrophic cholera outbreak resulting from uncontrolled extraction of drinking water from the Thames - which by long custom and practice, served as a common sewer for the rapidly growing metropolis, the only commercial element being enabling this to some extent. 

 

The name "Gurney Overend" has largely faded from the public memory (despite the continued existence of a construction company bearing the Gurney name) but in its day it was an awful and salutary warning of the dangers of uncontrolled speculation which has continued to influence behaviour (notably the English lack of general public enthusiasm for stocks and shares dealing) right down to the present. 

 

The later Victorian era (which is what people usually mean when they use the term "Victorian") was a time when it was recognised that the operation of the market did not, and could not provide certain things and services. It was also a time in which far-reaching reform of governance was undertaken to purge the practice of "interest" (patronage) and that "patriotism should have its reward". 

 

So while I certainly wouldn't dispute that Nationalised companies have serious issues of their own, it's important to be clear about the nature of the alternatives.

 

Calmac serve a politically defined need to provide a service to an area which historically and geographically speaking, is pretty much the back of nowhere, producing very little of value but has acquired a population it cannot support on any other way. 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2022 by rockershovel

[rockershovel]

I always thought the traditional title "Lord of the Isles" had a certain Je ne sais quoi about it... but Evelyn Waugh gave us the "Isle of Mugg, which has never been seen from Eigg" and particularly the wonderful comic Laird as another view. 

[SteveyDee68]

Sort of off-topic but on-topic in a way...

 

Does anybody know where scale drawings of the type of fully enclosed lifeboats seen on modern freighters might be had from? Usually bright orange and hung from davits or on a steeply angled launch cradle at the rear of the ship...

 

I've also been searching for models of these in 1:76 or thereabouts in order to be able to "modernise" a Scalescenes ship card kit, and have even suggested to one or two resin cast and 3D print makers that these could be popular, as they look suitable for such production methods (I can't imagine creating such shapes from card, for example)

 

The alternative is hand carving out of balsa wood etc which in this day and age seems rather "retro" and would not achieve the same level of detail as either a resin or 3D printed model.

 

Couple of example photos attached from a quick Google search...

 

 

Edited May 14, 2022 by SteveyDee68
Spelt "Google" wrong!

[phil_sutters]

A selection of snaps from a day trip to Dover.

[KeithMacdonald]

We're still building ships in the UK, and they look good too!

 

More here:

https://www.wightshipyard.com/single-post/building-the-future-of-hybrid-technology-for-uber-boat-by-thames-clippers

 

 

[New Haven Neil]

Came across this shot on line recently, takes me back.

 

Changing a piston on a Sulzer slow speed engine, looks like an RD90 or RND90 series - 90cm bore.  Gives an idea to laymen just how big these 'Cathedral' engines are.

 

[johnofwessex]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

Came across this shot on line recently, takes me back.

 

Changing a piston on a Sulzer slow speed engine, looks like an RD90 or RND90 series - 90cm bore.  Gives an idea to laymen just how big these 'Cathedral' engines are.

 

 

 

I remember many years ago an engineer talking about the ladders and walkways inside the crank case

[New Haven Neil]

On 21/05/2022 at 23:39, johnofwessex said:

 

 

I remember many years ago an engineer talking about the ladders and walkways inside the crank case

 

Yup!

 

[MPR]

HMS Severn off Brixham

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by MPR

[billbedford]

Camouflaged so that it can sneak up on French trawlers?

[Johann Marsbar]

S.S. Badger to be converted to an "alternative fuel source.....

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/05/30/coal-powered-lake-michigan-steamship-get-new-fuel-source/9946570002/#Echobox=1653948150

 

 

..so this will be a thing of the past.....

 

[turbos]

MV Lochinvar, a hybrid diesel-electric CalMac ferry at Fishnish, Isle of Mull. Working the Lochaline-Fishnish route.

 

Brian.

[The Johnster]

11 hours ago, Johann Marsbar said:

S.S. Badger to be converted to an "alternative fuel source.....

https://eu.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2022/05/30/coal-powered-lake-michigan-steamship-get-new-fuel-source/9946570002/#Echobox=1653948150

 

 

..so this will be a thing of the past.....

 

 

Handsome ship; glad she is to continue in service.

[SteveyDee68]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

Handsome ship; glad she is to continue in service.

Handsome proportions, and a train ferry! Quick trawl of the internet hasn’t turned up anything useful in terms of scale drawings, however, and most photos seem to be the same angle towards the bows.

 

I assume the almost vertical sides are to do with ice breaking and the fact that the ship is used only on an inland lake (albeit one heck of a big one!)

 

Steve S

[Johann Marsbar]

5 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Handsome proportions, and a train ferry! Quick trawl of the internet hasn’t turned up anything useful in terms of scale drawings, however, and most photos seem to be the same angle towards the bows.

 

I assume the almost vertical sides are to do with ice breaking and the fact that the ship is used only on an inland lake (albeit one heck of a big one!)

 

Steve S

 

The tracks are actually still in situ on the former train deck - partially tarred over in most places - which is where the road vehicles are accommodated nowadays...

 

 

 

The loading ramps at each end of the route ( Manitowoc, WI & Luddington, MI ) have been completely rebuilt since the train ferry days, but an interesting survivor at Luddington is this original loading ramp from the days that road vehicles were transported as deck cargo!

 

 

The sister ship to the SS Badger, the SS Spartan is also still moored at Luddington as well - albeit out of use for many years.

[Johann Marsbar]

6 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

and most photos seem to be the same angle towards the bows.

 

 

 

I have got this side on view of the Spartan at Luddington.....

 

[MarkC]

7 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

 

I assume the almost vertical sides are to do with ice breaking and the fact that the ship is used only on an inland lake (albeit one heck of a big one!)

 

Nope - it's to maximise loading capacity on the decks. Modern container ships are also sheer sided, for the same reason.

[St Enodoc]

10 minutes ago, MarkC said:

Nope - it's to maximise loading capacity on the decks. Modern container ships are also sheer sided, for the same reason.

Probably easier to build, too.

[MarkC]

10 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Probably easier to build, too.

Without a doubt 🖕

[johnofwessex]

Whats fascinating is her bunkering arrangements, as built hopper wagons loaded with coal were run on board and there were then on board chutes so you simply dropped the bottom doors and straight into the bunkers it went.  

 

A good example of US thinking.

 

I suspect however  that the cost of running the coal fired plant and availability of spares may well be an issue

[MarkC]

44 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

Whats fascinating is her bunkering arrangements, as built hopper wagons loaded with coal were run on board and there were then on board chutes so you simply dropped the bottom doors and straight into the bunkers it went.  

 

A good example of US thinking.

 

I suspect however  that the cost of running the coal fired plant and availability of spares may well be an issue

Very easy bunkering - I like it. I suppose that it can be done with road wagons nowadays...

 

Yes, operating costs of turbine plant against internal combustion reciprocating plant will be a big issue; also the costs involved with maintaining/replacing marine boilers are a factor. There's also the matter of steam certification for crews these days - there aren't many steam qualified seafarers about any more.

 

Also, with coal you have the fact that it's regarded as the root of many ills too - as we know only too well in the UK when it comes to both power generation and our beloved steam locomotives...

Edited June 5, 2022 by MarkC