Scaleforum 2017 Stoke Mandeville Stadium, Aylesbury - Saturday September 23rd Sunday September 24th

[10800]

Maybe we should pause now and come back to go over the same ground all over again next year.

[PenrithBeacon]

Maybe we should pause now and come back to go over the same ground all over again next year.

Ho Ho!

[5050]

It could be that the age of the members is also going up & its getting to far to travel at there age

 

 

Now I was there as a Trader  But with My non trader hat on I feel layouts that are not at least 90% finished should not be at shows when I pay to get in to a show I am paying to see layouts not construction sites  to me unfinished building etc should be on the demo tables & not on layouts

Sorry mate but I'm afraid that I can't agree with you there.  Part built models and layouts have always been a feature of S4Um's (and Expo's) for the very reasons that have been aired above.  They demonstrate the principles and methods that the builder has used - and is still using - to achieve his ultimate aims.  They have been invited so that other people can learn from the builders' experiences and hopefully, a year or two later, see the finished article.  The annual S4 Society and EM Society events are not 'shows' in the conventional style.  The S4 event is deliberately named a FORUM (the inclusion of a 'for/four/4' in the word is just a happy coincidence!) because of the original Latin meaning of it being a place where discussions took place.  I believe the majority of people pay to come to a S4UM for this very reason - to see, hear, look, listen and (hopefully!) learn.  I know I still do even after all the years I've been attending - and I do remember City University, Great Western Hotel etc. etc. and the thrill of going home after having met and spoken to some of the 'greats' and seeing their (often part built) models.

[Torper]

I have to confess that I don't like seeing part-built layouts much, even at a Forum, and doubt that I learn as much from them as I do from a completed layout.  Aprt from that, I see a part built layout at home every day!

 

DT

Edited September 28, 2017 by Torper

[mozzer models]

Sorry mate but I'm afraid that I can't agree with you there.  Part built models and layouts have always been a feature of S4Um's (and Expo's) for the very reasons that have been aired above.  They demonstrate the principles and methods that the builder has used - and is still using - to achieve his ultimate aims.  They have been invited so that other people can learn from the builders' experiences and hopefully, a year or two later, see the finished article.  The annual S4 Society and EM Society events are not 'shows' in the conventional style.  The S4 event is deliberately named a FORUM (the inclusion of a 'for/four/4' in the word is just a happy coincidence!) because of the original Latin meaning of it being a place where discussions took place.  I believe the majority of people pay to come to a S4UM for this very reason - to see, hear, look, listen and (hopefully!) learn.  I know I still do even after all the years I've been attending - and I do remember City University, Great Western Hotel etc. etc. and the thrill of going home after having met and spoken to some of the 'greats' and seeing their (often part built) models.

but dose it need the hole part built layout to show that when just one or two boards  would do the same with work been done as a demo stand to show how its done

[bbishop]

If that is the case the surely attendance would be increasing. Alternatively it is the non members attendance that is in decline.

 

An analysis of members to non members in attendance at the S4 shows would be invaluable in how to address the declining show numbers.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I'm a 7mm modeller, and would normally stock up with bits and pieces at Guildex.  I chose to miss Telford this year (London Bridge blockade) .  As well as paint, nuts & bolts, etc., I acquired information on Furness wagons and a book on North Staff wagons. 

 

I don't go to Scalefourum for the layouts. Whilst they all appeared to be running trains (!), perhaps only Dewsbury, Great Bardfield and the NER layout grabbed my attention.  Too many were not exhibition layouts.   Brettell Road was too low, fine if you were seated in front, I just walked past.  Minories had an operator in front blocking the sight lines, so I lasted 30 seconds before walking away.  (if you must have an operator in front, do it like Great Bardfield, to one side and side on to the layout, so you can both operate and interact.)  Every time I looked at the L&Y layout, it had the same rake of coaches half out of the platform and desultory shunting of a goods train.  Clutton was COR.

 

Leatherhead had a buzz, Stoke Manderville doesn't; although Railex (at the same venue) does.  Will I go again?  I'm missing Guildex in 2018, so possibly.  But is it a "can't miss"?  Not any more.

 

Bill

[Revolution Mike]

Valid points raised, but to these I'd add:

 

1) Whilst the membership may well be increasing, it doesn't mean that the members will go to Scaleforum. To some degree the aims of the event (and Expo EM) are being fulfilled by the wonders of the internet, things such as Youtube and indeed RMWeb have changed the way people learn and hone their skills, so Scaleforum is becoming a victim of its own success in that sense. The purpose is still the same, the manner in which its being delivered is changing/ has changed. 

 

Overall, show attendances throughout the country are changing, most are falling, I doubt many can show a ten year increase. When once clubs ran shows as their main source of income, nowadays they are much less so and involve a much higher degree of risk for the organisers, so for those that do a good job, we should welcome and support their efforts. By all means offer constructive comment, but don't knock a show because of something which is an integral part of what it's about (part built layouts at Scaleforum, shock horror) it all helps to If you don't like it, don't go!

 

On a general point like others I'm still not sure why there is such gnashing of teeth about Scaleforum! Paul has said the attendance was in the bands of probability of last year's event.

 

On point 1, I suspect a larger issue for Scaleforum (like most national club shows) is location and changes to the geographic spread of members.

 

I'm far from convinced that show attendances are falling, if that were true why are there so many shows and why are more not stopping?

[Lecorbusier]

All are welcome to their views. For my part ....

 

I assume the format and models invited are based upon detailed discussions with the membership (the primary and potentially subsidising audience ) as to what on balance the majority would like present. I assume that there was a majority who were interested in some part built layouts.

 

Opening the show to all comers is all about inclusivity along with the hope that some may either benefit or perhaps join ... but the show is a forum for the scale four society and as such it should surely be geared towards its primary clientele?

 

I visited and thoroughly approved of the offering ... this is because it catered well for my interests. If it hadn't I would have said thanks but no thanks and moved on .... to criticise something for not being something it was never intended to be is odd .... after all a sports car is useless for the school run and a tractor is no good for motorway cruising ... horses for courses me thinks.

[Enterprisingwestern]

It could be that the age of the members is also going up & its getting to far to travel at there age

 

 

Now I was there as a Trader  But with My non trader hat on I feel layouts that are not at least 90% finished should not be at shows when I pay to get in to a show I am paying to see layouts not construction sites  to me unfinished building etc should be on the demo tables & not on layouts

 

 

Humour warning:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. When is a show not a show?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. When it's Scaleforum

 

 

I'm sure that will have upset some sensitive souls, or perhaps not when this is remembered 'it doesn't matter a jot what anybody else thinks'

 

That's why it's called Scaleforum, not Scaleforum Model Railway Exhibition or Show.

Perhaps it should change to Scalefour Society Members Day to try and get through to those with a mental block?

 

Mike.

[leopardml2341]

That's why it's called Scaleforum, not Scaleforum Model Railway Exhibition or Show.

Perhaps it should change to Scalefour Society Members Day to try and get through to those with a mental block?

 

Mike.

I don't care what it's called - just that someone corrected me for referring to it as a 'show' - or am I missing something and were they being e........?

[merddinemrys]

I'm a 4mm narrow gauge modeller - 009 if you prefer - but I try to attend Scaleforum and ExpoEM (I'm not a member of either) every year for the same reason I buy MRJ. To be inspired, to learn and to try and expand my own modelling skills and horizons. And it's a great place to pick up the bits and pieces that one doesn't see too much at general shows. The layouts may not be narrow gauge (I don't think I've seen 00 at these events!) but there's always something to pinch for one's own modelling, whether they're under construction or complete. We railway modellers are all kleptomaniacs at heart after all!!

 

I must admit I couldn't attend the show last weekend this year. As someone mentioned earlier, September is becoming very full for railway event's - modelling and prototype. Saturday I was booked elsewhere, Sunday we had our local NG group get together and to get direct from Aylesbury to the meeting would have taken too much time out of the day for either event unfortunately. 

 

The list of layouts inspired but a number I'd seen elsewhere and the others will appear at a show soon - be it a forum, expo or a more general show! I missed meeting up with some of the friends I see only once a year for a chat and a natter but we'll be in contact by email no doubt!

 

Long may both shows continue! Sure, the hobby's changing and the participants generally getting older, but we need shows like this for it to continue into the future.

 

David

[John B]

All is now clear.  You're a management consultant, aren't you?

 

Chris

 

Oi! I resemble that remark!

[John_Miles]

OK, so I "put the boot in" and got the expected brickbats. Criticism always hurts, whether justified or not. However, if you just go into denial mode and don't even think about it, you never progress. I have over the years attended Scaleforums from back in the days when it was in Leatherhead. I haven't been every year, probably every two or three years (I model in EM) and sometimes there are superb layouts. When P4 is good it is outstanding but I suspect that many people find the standards and skills required to meet them very challenging. This I suspect is why some Scaleforums have layouts which don't run too well.

[Horsetan]

OK, so I "put the boot in" and got the expected brickbats. Criticism always hurts, whether justified or not. However, if you just go into denial mode and don't even think about it, you never progress. ....

 

You can lead the coarse to water, but you can't make 'em think.

[Captain Kernow]

OK, so I "put the boot in" and got the expected brickbats. Criticism always hurts, whether justified or not.

 

Well, you did say:

You P4 people are supposed to be the cream of 4mm modelling - you have proclaimed yourselves as such - but your models often don't live up to the hype.

You can hardly expect people not to get offended when you express your views in such confrontational terms.

 

 

When P4 is good it is outstanding but I suspect that many people find the standards and skills required to meet them very challenging. This I suspect is why some Scaleforums have layouts which don't run too well.

Well, I'm sure I'm not the only one who would agree with that.

 

The 'how difficult/easy is P4 these days?' argument has been vented many times on this forum already, so let's not re-open that one, but poor running layouts aren't confined to P4, of course (also mentioned already on this thread).

Edited September 28, 2017 by Captain Kernow

[Captain Kernow]

I have to confess that I don't like seeing part-built layouts much, even at a Forum, and doubt that I learn as much from them as I do from a completed layout.  Aprt from that, I see a part built layout at home every day!

 

You're not the only one!

 

And if you're very unlucky, I may end up inflicting my own part-built layout on the Scaleforum audience in a couple of years (I'm not optimistic enough to predict that it will actually be finished by then!).

[RANGERS]

Time to lock this thread methinks, its veered way off course and in anyway as its over and done with and I doubt anyone else wishes to comment on the event itself, time to draw stumps.

[Porcy Mane]

Why lock a thread because of one person's confrontational criticism.

 

There is confrontational criticism and constructional criticism. My guess is in this particular instance the confrontational criticiser does a lot more talking than construction.

 

P

[Flymo748]

Why lock a thread because of one person's confrontational criticism.

 

There is confrontational criticism and constructional criticism. My guess is in this particular instance the confrontational criticiser does a lot more talking than construction.

 

P

 

As a Scalefour Committee member, and thus with joint responsibility for planning this year's sho^H^H^H^event, I find this thread fascinating each year.

 

So please don't lock it.  As we're already well into planning the 2018 show (22-23 September 2018, thank you for asking) then if there is one good idea or tip then we will take it back to be discussed and possibly implemented. 

 

And yes, so far I think that every point raised, both for and against, has been discussed and we have agreed on at some point in recent years amongst those of us that organise Scaleforum.  However with a new organising team after the 2019 sho^H^H^H^event, then there may be a new format, some different ideas, or maybe even a different location.  I suspect it will still be just as welcoming to those to whom it does appeal, and I'll see the same friendly faces there as I did this year.

 

Cheers

Paul Willis

Scalefour Society Deputy Chairman

[Porcy Mane]

So please don't lock it.  As we're already well into planning the 2018 show (22-23 September 2018, thank you for asking) then if there is one good idea or tip then we will take it back to be discussed and possibly implemented. 

 

 

Well said.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have been to every Scalefourum for over thirty years.and for me it is about getting bits and bobs from the trade, seeing layouts which may or may not interest me but that is personal taste, also it is a good chance to catch up with people.

 

I used to get the train to London then the tube to Angel where a climb up the long spiral staircase brought you close to City University, then a move to Leatherhead where a drive round the M25 was in order, the move to Aylesbury gave me a fifteen minute walk to the venue! 

 

Over the years things have changed but that is nature of the beast. with the exhibition team, and what is available that year on trade and layouts, it is not the easiest thing to put a show on each year. and some shows fire me up more than others although, I did like Minories and Drewsbury among others and though the line up was strong, as I mentioned in a previous post I thought the layout of the hall could have been better, but that is personal taste and I have got it wrong at Railex in the past. 

 

David

[Captain Kernow]

As a Scalefour Committee member, and thus with joint responsibility for planning this year's sho^H^H^H^event, I find this thread fascinating each year.

 

So please don't lock it.  As we're already well into planning the 2018 show (22-23 September 2018, thank you for asking) then if there is one good idea or tip then we will take it back to be discussed and possibly implemented. 

 

I think a big vote of thanks is due to Paul and his colleagues on the Committee, especially Exhibition Manager Terry Bendall and his team. Those who have organised a model railway exhibition/event will know what the workload can be like.

[Kelly]

I think a big vote of thanks is due to Paul and his colleagues on the Committee, especially Exhibition Manager Terry Bendall and his team. Those who have organised a model railway exhibition/event will know what the workload can be like.

 

Very much so. Last year was the first year I managed to attend (after deciding at Scalefour North the society was the right fit for me too), and once again this year was great. Terry and the rest of the society involved have put on great shows.

 

Hopefully someone will come forward to take running it on and it continues beyond 2019 to be an excellent show (I'm sure it will).

[PMP]

I'm concerned that the attendance at Scaleforum declines year on year. I'm also concerned that this decline is occurring in the face of increasing membership of the society. I can remember when the show was rammed, uncomfortably so sometimes.

Something is wrong here and if Scaleforum is to continue then this matter must be attended too.

As to the modelling, everything I saw was of a very high standard no complaints from me there.

But the attendance issues do have to be addressed.

Regards

 

I'm not an S4 member, but can see PB's points. I went this year on the Saturday and felt that the forum/show/exhibition/collective gathering/pageant/spectacle was missing something this year, it felt a bit 'flat' compared to previous years. If the forum is to cover its costs then the point that there are fewer attendees but rising membership may indicate some changes could be beneficial. If however there's no remit to cover costs then its up to the membership to decide if they're happy with that. Leatherhead may have had more  'public' visitors as it was a general purpose leisure centre with plenty of 'passing trade', rather than the more specialised venue that SM is.

 

Overall I like the format, WIP layouts I have no problem with and recognise their value, Dewsbury being an excellent example of why WIP should be in the mix, and I feel there should be at least a few completed layouts in each show. I saw pretty much all the traders I expect to see and buy stuff from, including S4stores.

 

Unfortunately I can't put my finger on what for me was missing this year, for me it was an OK S4um, but not a vintage one.

[Kelly]

I'm not an S4 member, but can see PB's points. I went this year on the Saturday and felt that the forum/show/exhibition/collective gathering/pageant/spectacle was missing something this year, it felt a bit 'flat' compared to previous years. If the forum is to cover its costs then the point that there are fewer attendees but rising membership may indicate some changes could be beneficial. If however there's no remit to cover costs then its up to the membership to decide if they're happy with that. Leatherhead may have had more  'public' visitors as it was a general purpose leisure centre with plenty of 'passing trade', rather than the more specialised venue that SM is.

 

Overall I like the format, WIP layouts I have no problem with and recognise their value, Dewsbury being an excellent example of why WIP should be in the mix, and I feel there should be at least a few completed layouts in each show. I saw pretty much all the traders I expect to see and buy stuff from, including S4stores.

 

Unfortunately I can't put my finger on what for me was missing this year, for me it was an OK S4um, but not a vintage one.

 

It should be borne in mind that last years show was also the Society's 40th celebrations, so the show was bigger and more packed as a result (I didn't attend any before last year however, so haven't got anything to compare it with in that respect).