Bachman tooling for third parties again

[JSpencer]

But that isn't consistent with...IIRC warley they were £115 , vs the websites... £125 (and presumably +£4 postage ?)

Anyway, past is the past, I'm happy to let this one our there, my comments initially were intended to be generic, not specific, certainly not pick an issue nearly a year on, my USAs run fine, even if I have at least 1 more than I would have otherwise bought.

You win some, you loose some. Let me give a personal example.

 

In 2015 I brought a Bachmann green weathered class 20 with tops numbering. I watched for ages just in case they did not sell and were discounted. Eventually they were no longer anywhere and one shop only had a couple left so off went £110. This month a see shop clearing some for £79.

Had I waited nearly 2 years, I could of got it cheaper but shortly after getting the 20, I recieved a bargain DCC sound offer £75 for loksound v4 chips blown with any loco sound they had. So I brought some including one for the 20 (thanks Olivias). Please remember this chip was brought in 2015. The same chip now costs £120.

So you could argue I lost in buying the loco but had I delayed it until now, I would not have brought the bargain sound chip so would have lost there instead (whereas I actually won on the chip side). In any case, I have had 2 years of pleasure out of the loco.

 

I am not sure why you felt that exclusives will never be re run especially given that both the NRM and ModelRail have run exclusives for at least 10 years with a good number of reruns - so evidence of that is not lacking. As for whether they do or do not do reruns will certainly be based on Market demand. A lot of people asked for the Bluebell USA, enough to merit a rerun. Had there been few, I am sure ModelRail would not have bothered. The NRM too observes sales of their Deltic, now in batches of 200, the current may be the last if it is too slow.

 

As for price difference, my understanding is that Kernow are not in the equation for ones sold directly by ModelRail at Warley. So their handling fee (wrapping, posting, chasing people for credit cards, taking orders and 100s of phone calls asking when theirs will be sent) is removed, without which ModelRail would not have had the resources to shift them. You could wait for Warley, but next time there might not be any left to sell (or they write offthe idea of removing the handling fee) - that is the risk but in general one can safely assume that demand will mean further runs. If there is a model you want and you think there is a risk of being sold out buy 1. Additional numbers nearly always appear later.

I brought 3 USA tanks pre ordered and have no complaints about them or their costs, for me the best little shunter and steam model in 2016.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...My money is a GWR 61xx coming down the road from someone...

It's a subject that could - with a modern tool suite - cover quite a range of variations, as others above have already observed. But,

 

... a re-issue of the Hornby Airfix derivate, which isn't a bad model.

If a competing model did appear, most likely Hornby would be able to re-issue very price competitively.

 

That could be rather punishing for a commissioner with limited retail visibility, compared to the retail exposure a Hornby release has. (Manufacturer's own release, more probable. Though with plenty of subjects with no RTR model - or only a very poor one - which way would you choose to jump? I feel there have been enough lessons in 'duplication, best avoided' these past half dozen years to make most manufacturers and commissioners more wary.)

 

I would expect these third party commissions with Bachmann to be of subjects with no RTR model; or if there was one, something now way behind the market expectations of a model. Probably at the more modest end of the size range too.

[dibber25]

As for price difference, my understanding is that Kernow are not in the equation for ones sold directly by ModelRail at Warley. So their handling fee (wrapping, posting, chasing people for credit cards, taking orders and 100s of phone calls asking when theirs will be sent) is removed, without which ModelRail would not have had the resources to shift them. You could wait for Warley, but next time there might not be any left to sell (or they write offthe idea of removing the handling fee) - that is the risk but in general one can safely assume that demand will mean further runs. If there is a model you want and you think there is a risk of being sold out buy 1. Additional numbers nearly always appear later.

I brought 3 USA tanks pre ordered and have no complaints about them or their costs, for me the best little shunter and steam model in 2016.

 

With regard to the Kernow/Warley aspect - precisely! With regard to the re-runs, having initially wanted us to take all the USAs in a single batch, Bachmann later offered us the chance to have a further run. The green one was chosen because it had initially sold out on pre-orders. Though we had quoted the quantities in the initial runs, there was never a commitment to limit production to those numbers. We have been at pains always to preserve the distinction between 'exclusives' and 'limited editions'. (CJL)

[The Black Hat]

Well we all wanted to know if Bachmann were actually going to get the extra time for tooling up projects and clearing the backlog. Looks like more tooling is being done, but not on what we thought was going to be happening.

 

The long wait for the 158 continues...

[Perfect Paul]

Well we all wanted to know if Bachmann were actually going to get the extra time for tooling up projects and clearing the backlog. Looks like more tooling is being done, but not on what we thought was going to be happening.

 

The long wait for the 158 continues...

In a Perfect world, Realtrack would be the preferred choice of many,to produce the LONG awaited model of the 158,that Bachmann have been so reluctant to bring back to the UK market.Imagine the running qualities & level of detail.

We can but DREAM.

In a Perfect world, Realtrack would be the preferred choice of many,to produce the LONG awaited model of the 158,that Bachmann have been so reluctant to bring back to the UK market.Imagine the running qualities & level of detail.

We can but DREAM.

Edited August 10, 2017 by Perfect Paul

[wirey33]

In a Perfect world, Realtrack would be the preferred choice of many,to produce the LONG awaited model of the 158,that Bachmann have been so reluctant to bring back to the UK market.Imagine the running qualities & level of detail.

We can but DREAM.

 

I would imagine that Realtrack are keeping a very close eye on what’s happening with the Class 158.

I’m no fan of “Sprinters” but they are pretty much essential on any post 1980’s layout. With a myriad of liveries to be modelled, a manufacturer could release a few each year for many, many years which would give excellent long term returns on the initial tooling costs. Always an interesting prospect...

 

Realtrack are becoming THE go-to manufacturer for 2nd Generation DMUs. If their Class 156 is as successful as it looks like it’s going to be, cash flow should be healthy which allows further investment. Would they go up against Bachmann? Who knows.

 

Personally if they announced a 158 and it was 6-12 months behind Bachmann’s offering, I’d wait.

[Perfect Paul]

I fully agree. Given the level of detail and performance of Realtracks model of the class 156, and knowing Charlie & Arran's passion for their projects. I would happily wait longer.

I think that sometimes Bachmann appear to take us modeller for Fools.

[Andy Y]

I think that sometimes Bachmann appear to take us modeller for Fools.

 

I disagree; I do not think any manufacturer is taking modellers as fools.

 

I really don't like glib statements like that when I know how hard some people do work.

[Perfect Paul]

Andy, can I respectfully be very clear to all, that at No time, was any offence intended at any point. I was merely expressing an honest felt opinion.

 

I'm sure that most modellers do not have the access that you may have to information from manufacturers, and as such rely on announcements.

 

I feel sure that if you look at projects such as the class 158 as an example, the wait has certainly in terms of years,been a Long one. In my opinion as a modeller, I just feel that communication is key, and details of this project could have been handled a lot better, instead of being put on the "Back burner" with very little news to keep us inspired or informed. I know from discussions at shows, other modellers have the same views.

 

Other manufacturers however, such as Revolution & Realtrack seem to have realised this and have got their communication levels pretty much spot on.

 

This level of communication certainly helps the average modeller to make informed decisions, and also helps them to plan for future purchases / cashflow, and for possible new layouts so as to make good use of these new models and the era's in which they fit.

Best regards, in the spirit of modelling, Paul.

[Andy Y]

I feel sure that if you look at projects such as the class 158 as an example, the wait has certainly in terms of years,been a Long one. In my opinion as a modeller, I just feel that communication is key, and details of this project could have been handled a lot better, instead of being put on the "Back burner" with very little news to keep us inspired or informed. I know from discussions at shows, other modellers have the same views.

 

 

Bachmann hold more press briefings each year than any other manufacturer, attend more shows speaking to modellers face-to-face than any other mainstream manufacturer and publish quarterly updates where projects are in the process; what else is it that you want them to do? 

[Perfect Paul]

Andy, I fully agree that Bachmann do attend and support many mainstream exhibitions as you have stated.

My concern has been that on the many various occasions that I have enquired about the progress of the 158 & 170 models, I have just received a bemused look and a shrug of the shoulders, which tells myself and fellow modellers very little and will inspire very few.

I have had the same experience when enquiring about the previously announced release of the Meridian project, only to find out that it was later cancelled.

I am just hoping that we are not going down the same route.

I hope that you can see where I'm coming from.

[Ian Hargrave]

I fully agree. Given the level of detail and performance of Realtracks model of the class 156, and knowing Charlie & Arran's passion for their projects. I would happily wait longer.

I think that sometimes Bachmann appear to take us modeller for Fools.

Just pause for a moment's thought,ignoring the unnecessary and unpleasant jibe.Realtrack and Charlie and Arran are a two person outfit with a very small,select output,albeit of a very high quality.Go take a read through the current Bachmann catalogue and note the sheer volume and diversity of models either in production or expected in the future.(And yes,you may have to wait.)It beggars belief that you seem to compare the two.

 

Expanding on Andy's point,Bachmann staff have a high profile at nearly all of the major shows and are always available for a chat and exchange of information.If you choose,as many of us do,there are further opportunities to connect as members of the Collectors Club.

Knocking manufacturers seems to become a fashion statement for some,especially if we don't get what we want when we want it

 

It is tiresome and usually born of lack of knowledge of the market and the true nature of the manufacturing situation

[adb968008]

20 years ago, the manufacturer was all but invisible to the end customer.

The manufacturers hid in their offices, designers, admins, researchers etal.

The only public face was the sales reps, and very occasionally the marketing guys, whom annually met retailers at the Earls Court toy fair, some got to Nuremberg, which were largely closed to the public.

 

Then after the January reps would phone and write letters arranging visits to those shops often 6 weeks in advance on carefully planned routes, for 2-3 visits a year to each retailer. No internet or mobile phones then.

 

If a lucky customer called into the shop, at the exact time of the reps visit.. lucky them, with 6 visits a day, plus driving between, there wasn't a huge amount of time to spend in each shop.

 

Today reps are on the road, at shops, shows, exhibitions, available by email and discussion forums. We have clubs, magazines, newsletters, blogs and more.... they are working weekends, evenings.. it has to be a hobby as well as a job, and unlike the customer, for whom this is a hobby and can come and go as they wish, they are standing on the stall, just like the retailer, for the full day.

 

The public has never had it so good when it comes to accessing not just the rep, but everyone shy of the workforce assembling it..and even they are occasionally seem in photographs.

 

Far from taking modellers as fools,back in the day some reps were scared of some customers..

 

It's all a long way from the 1990's, my late father (as a model railway sales rep) often told me about mad'arry, a cyclist, who stalked local area model shops looking for the Hornby rep who used to hide in fear after constantly being cornered in various shops and being informed of all the wrongs of the Black 5 !!!, causing him to miss customer visits as he couldn't get free, he referred to one occasion he saw 'arry in 3 shops on the same day !!!

Edited August 11, 2017 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

Bachmann hold more press briefings each year than any other manufacturer, attend more shows speaking to modellers face-to-face than any other mainstream manufacturer and publish quarterly updates where projects are in the process; what else is it that you want them to do? 

 

A class 158, now, it would appear.

 

While no offence is intended, there is a section of the modelling community that seem unable to accept the simple fact that it doesn't matter how much talking Bachmann do, the revised model is not ready to be produced yet. Whinging about it - however politely or obliquely it is done does nothing to make the model appear on the shelves any quicker, and as Andy says, it must very extremely annoying and despirting to the team at Bachmann, who are no doubt just as passionate about model railways as the rest of us.

 

However on the flip side, to some extent Bachmann have slightly bought this on themselves by announcing a retooled 158, yet taking a long time over translating that statement into a finished product. Granted there have been plenty of genuine reasons (I say that deliberately because far too many modellers live in a parallel universe where exchange rate fluctuations, changes in manufacturing capacity, economic slowdowns, etc don't exist) why the 158 has taken so log - but equally, in terms of expectations, it is entirely reasonable to expect delivery with 3 years of an announcement being made.

 

In recent years Bachmann (and indeed other manufacturers have made a point about not announcing products unless they are confident they can be released within 12-18 months, showing they do understand how frustrating it is for modellers when products are delayed. Unfortunately Bachmann do not poses a time machine and are thus unable to go back and remove their original 158 announcement and thus save themselves all the flack they are getting.

 

As someone said 'Patience is a virtue' - the 158 will arrive when Bachmann are able to produce it and no amount of complaining - however it is disguised will change that.

[Bernard Lamb]

Andy, I fully agree that Bachmann do attend and support many mainstream exhibitions as you have stated.

My concern has been that on the many various occasions that I have enquired about the progress of the 158 & 170 models, I have just received a bemused look and a shrug of the shoulders, which tells myself and fellow modellers very little and will inspire very few.

I have had the same experience when enquiring about the previously announced release of the Meridian project, only to find out that it was later cancelled.

I am just hoping that we are not going down the same route.

I hope that you can see where I'm coming from.

I would suggest that you do a few days work experience with a company that has dealings with China.

It might make the situation a bit clearer.

From your comments the people you have dealt with at Bachmann are learning fast regarding the ways of the orient.

Bernard

[No Decorum]

I disagree; I do not think any manufacturer is taking modellers as fools.

 

I really don't like glib statements like that when I know how hard some people do work.

It is sometimes said that manufacturers are businesses and are in business to make money. That is perfectly true – if a business does not make money it will go under. What this view does not take into account is that the best way to make money and stay in business is to love what you are doing. As regards Bachmann in particular, I have been very struck by the openness, friendliness and dedication of the people. They take pride in what they do and it shows. If I take just one example, there are exhibitions all year but from about September onwards it hots up until Christmas. Bachmann staff attend these more weekends than not and I sometimes wonder when they find time to breathe.

 

Just in case anyone thinks that I am unduly pro-Bachmann, similar things could be said about Hornby. Hornby’s approach is slightly different but there is no doubting the enthusiasm, openness and dedication of Paul Isles and his team.

[Perfect Paul]

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments with regards to Bachmann and their sales force.

 

I have been a loyal customer to Bachmann for many years, due to the fact that I believe in my view, that they produce a Good range of Good quality models, and therefore I have backed up that view, and gone ahead and purchased vast quantities of stock,so as to furnish and operate 2 large layouts (24ft N gauge & 20ft OO gauge)

 

As an example when attending Warley or the N gauge show each year, one of the highlights of the show for me, is to visit the Bachmann stand to view the range and meet the Team.

 

I have always found the Bachmann team to be friendly & approachable and usually very knowledgeable.

 

The class 158 has been on the backlog list for many years now, and I think it is a fair and reasonable question, when asking if there is any further news on a release date or are they going to drop it from the range as they did with the Meridian ?

 

It is very frustrating to see the shrugging of shoulders, as this is not going to answer the question, that I'm sure many people have asked when visiting the same Bachmann stand.

 

To put this in context, if for example another manufacturing business such as Sony or Samsung announced that they were going to produce a new range of TV's and then after years of waiting, just "shrugged their shoulders" and didn't have a clue as to when or if they were ever going to be produced, I am sure that most customers would not be impressed by this kind of response.

 

Back to railway modelling.

 

I am not in the habit of "knocking" model manufacturers, and am usually most supportive, but like most human beings can become frustrated over time.

 

I would imagine that at exhibitions, Bachmann would be expecting modellers to be asking their staff about future releases and the Backlog catalogue for instance.

 

I have always believed that when dealing with any kind of business or Government dept or General public, that communication is the Key !!!

 

With this in mind and to stop the shoulder shrugging and the confusion that this brings, I wonder if it would be a good idea and help the situation, if Bachmann were to fully brief all of the team members on the stand beforehand, as to where models were in the release schedule and reasons for any unforeseen delays.

 

Or maybe they could perhaps produce a large size laminated chart, fastened to the wall of their stand, which could easily show where each announced model "Sits" in the production schedule.

 

This I believe would make the picture a lot more Clearer to all.

 

Result : Improved communication

Picture becomes clearer

Less queries for the team

Less frustration for modellers

And most importantly :

Less worn shoulder joints

[centraltrains]

I would imagine that Realtrack are keeping a very close eye on what’s happening with the Class 158.

I’m no fan of “Sprinters” but they are pretty much essential on any post 1980’s layout. With a myriad of liveries to be modelled, a manufacturer could release a few each year for many, many years which would give excellent long term returns on the initial tooling costs. Always an interesting prospect...

 

Realtrack are becoming THE go-to manufacturer for 2nd Generation DMUs. If their Class 156 is as successful as it looks like it’s going to be, cash flow should be healthy which allows further investment. Would they go up against Bachmann? Who knows.

 

Personally if they announced a 158 and it was 6-12 months behind Bachmann’s offering, I’d wait.

 

RealTrack 143/144 just derails all the time though (And I purposely went about making a new layout to be as level as possible to it could cope)! They are also very fragile/hard to take apart to put decoders in! All my Bachmann 2nd gen DMUs are really reliable, look good, hardly ever derail and have easy DCC installation [wring a DCC decoder in is much easier than it is to open up an RT model]! I haven't tried any 156s yet, but their livery process is so random nothing has appealed to me yet! I would rather wait for Bachmann for the 158. Personally, I think the old tooling for the 158 is fine for now and they should expand the range instead...

 

Note that I do not think RealTrack is bad, it's just their modeling decisions aren't to my full likings, where as Bachmann is much closer to my full likings.

[Perfect Paul]

RealTrack 143/144 just derails all the time though (And I purposely went about making a new layout to be as level as possible to it could cope)! They are also

very fragile/hard to take apart to put decoders in! All my Bachmann 2nd gen DMUs are really reliable, look good, hardly ever derail and have easy DCC installati

 

 

 

 

 

on [wring a DCC decoder in is much easier than it is to open up an RT model]! I haven't tried any 156s yet, but their livery process is so random nothing has appealed to me yet! I would rather wait for Bachmann for the 158. Personally, I think the old tooling for the 158 is fine for now and they should expand the range instead...

 

Note that I do not think RealTrack is bad, it's just their modeling decisions aren't to my full likings, where as Bachmann is much closer to my full likings.

Now that would be a Good idea !!!

A friend was saying exactly the same thing to me yesterday.

 

Bachmann could produce newer liveries of the old tooling class 158, which would please many modellers, as they are a good model and also a common site on today's railways.

 

It would give us something decent to run now, whilst Bachmann get on and re-tool the 158.

 

Everybody wins.

 

Bachmann make good use of current tooling.

We get a Good choice of Dmu's to run.

It lessens the amount of people asking for the re-release of the 158.

[Perfect Paul]

A class 158, now, it would appear.

 

While no offence is intended, there is a section of the modelling community that seem unable to accept the simple fact that it doesn't matter how much talking Bachmann do, the revised model is not ready to be produced yet. Whinging about it - however politely or obliquely it is done does nothing to make the model appear on the shelves any quicker, and as Andy says, it must very extremely annoying and despirting to the team at Bachmann, who are no doubt just as passionate about model railways as the rest of us.

 

However on the flip side, to some extent Bachmann have slightly bought this on themselves by announcing a retooled 158, yet taking a long time over translating that statement into a finished product. Granted there have been plenty of genuine reasons (I say that deliberately because far too many modellers live in a parallel universe where exchange rate fluctuations, changes in manufacturing capacity, economic slowdowns, etc don't exist) why the 158 has taken so log - but equally, in terms of expectations, it is entirely reasonable to expect delivery with 3 years of an announcement being made.

 

In recent years Bachmann (and indeed other manufacturers have made a point about not announcing products unless they are confident they can be released within 12-18 months, showing they do understand how frustrating it is for modellers when products are delayed. Unfortunately Bachmann do not poses a time machine and are thus unable to go back and remove their original 158 announcement and thus save themselves all the flack they are getting.

 

As someone said 'Patience is a virtue' - the 158 will arrive when Bachmann are able to produce it and no amount of complaining - however it is disguised will change that.

Hi Phil.

I fully understand that Bachmann are trying to produce excellent products and that they experience many issues beyond their control when trying to bring certain models to the UK market.

 

The often used phrase "No news is Good news" cannot apply in the case of the 158

 

My only issue has been, any news would be Good news, please tell us something, so that we know where we stand.

 

Shrugged shoulders tells us nothing and only leads to confusion & frustration.

 

I understand that Bachmann have got a large backlog catalogue, but surely updates on each item would surely stem the tide of questions that they must get at exhibitions & on the phone.

[Andy Y]

If there have been any instances of 'shrugged shoulders' I can't help wonder if it was brought on by relentless drum-banging even when information has been given - only based on the evidence of the postings of course.

[Perfect Paul]

If there have been any instances of 'shrugged shoulders' I can't help wonder if it was brought on by relentless drum-banging even when information has been given - only based on the evidence of the postings of course.

Andy, with respect, when I have asked Bachmann for news on the New 158, I would not know how many other people had been "Banging the Drum" that day or at previous exhibitions.

 

I have always asked in a courteous manner as I get on well with the Bachmann team, although I accept that not every modeller speaks to them with courtesy & respect, nor in the correct tone of voice, as I have unfortunately witnessed this on numerous occasions at different locations.

I Like model railways, I enjoy running them, and in fact I Love them, but I don't LIVE for them. Unfortunately some modellers do allow their passion to turn into downright rudeness, and when having to witness this, I do indeed feel sorry for the Guys on the Bachmann stand.

 

Reference the Bachmann announcements in the delay of the New tooling for the 158, I don't think I have ever seen one anywhere, maybe I have missed.

 

Next time I see you, I will buy you a coffee and we can sit and put the World to rights (Lol)

 

Thanks Andy.

[adb968008]

Or maybe they could perhaps produce a large size laminated chart, fastened to the wall of their stand, which could easily show where each announced model "Sits" in the production schedule.

 

 

They almost do exactly that every quarter..

 

it lands on my door step and is one of the most eagerly read pages in the Bachmann times when it arrives.

 

Hornby for their part, put it on their website, when you click the link.

Some of the others are a bit more difficult to get the information, but if you really want to know, you can always give the company a call.

 

 

Just to be helpful...

 

Re the 158, the Summer 2017 Bachmann times says it is in the drawing office, so its safely at least a year away would be my guess.

Items listed in production states the 458 (arrived and sat in front of me), 4TC (very close), Birdcage Coaches and Class 70/8.

 

At the Artwork stage is the 009 stuff, war flat, Stowage vans, freight liner flats and LBSC H2, so I'd imagine they will be in before year end.

Edited August 12, 2017 by adb968008

[Andy Y]

Reference the Bachmann announcements in the delay of the New tooling for the 158, I don't think I have ever seen one anywhere, maybe I have missed.

 

 

See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/124183-Bachmann-class-158-status/?p=2775976

[Perfect Paul]

The last "shoulder shrugging" session was at Warley last year and I have never even heard of the "Bachmann Times" so this could be why i missed any announcements.

 

Thanks for the link, I will read with interest.

 

Cheers, Paul.