Bachman tooling for third parties again

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Some might describe Hornby's Peckett as a 'niche model' - but hardly so in my view...

Still to be tested I feel. Personally I would plump for 'niche model', albeit a significant size niche.

 

The niche that I believe it occupies is, 'example of a well known private engine manufacturer's petite and attractive 'classic' industrial steam loco capable of carrying a range of owner livery schemes and sufficiently typical of the type to have broad appeal among the UK's RTR layout owners (who have until recently had to make do with adaptions of much older and generally inferior models), made to current standard'.

 

Never had anything equivalent to this model considered  'all around' previously offered in OO in short, and I suspect that it will eat 80%+ of the market for 'small and attractive industrial steam loco' for the foreseeable future, especially as it has the field completely to itself at present. Never again can there be a release of a model into this niche that had no effective prior competition. What's left in demand for alternative steam industrials will likely be mopped up by the Dapol B4 and the small 0-6-0T that DJM is proposing, if they are next to market. I would hope to be incorrect in this assessment, but cannot help but feel that this 'niche' has been almost too well filled...

 

...Godfrey's very telling point about the model shops etc which are left out.  This is probably the most serious thing which should concern us among all the comments ...

The landscape of model railway retail has shifted again, in addition to the discounting which enabled the larger operators to increase their market share; there is now the proliferation of new and smaller manufacturers, exclusives by commissioning or direct production, and potentially crowdfunded products. More competitive pressure on the smaller retailer for the potential customer's spend. There isn't really the Aldi/Lidl option either of simplified stocking to reduce trading cost, (If you want a 5MT, I have the early crest Stanier, my class 5 diesel is a coal sector liveried class 56, etc. - that'll go over - not!) it's got to be about competing on soft stuff like personal service, shop atmosphere, cup of tea or coffee, chat, knowledge, demonstrations and assistance in developing skills and technique.

[40F]

How so? Just off the top of my head the two biggest requirements are "What model do we want to commission? (and what scale)" and "How do we handle the commercials between each other?". If you can get to that point, the rest is trivial.

 

 

Simples you would never get agreement ie a Scottish shop would want a totally different model than say a Hampshire shop. Plain common sense when you stop and think about it

[The Johnster]

This cannot be a win-win situation for all if you include the smaller model shop that provides its customers with all the other things a modeller might need. I often seem to see comments on a model shop closure topic along the lines ' such a pity I always used it to get the paints and glues I need and now I will have to drive x miles to model shop Y or rely on the internet'. Model shops cannot survive on the bits and bobs we might need. They need to have a steady supply of new large price items with reasonable mark up on each item. When a model appears as an exclusive with one shop, it must by definition, reduce the income of all other retailers. Certainly that is the effect on my buying pattern, I do, like most people have a limited budget for the hobby. I am certainly not saying that this wrong, in a business terms it makes great sense for those who can commission models and for the manufacturers in this very challenging economic climate; I am saying that it is a business model that will have long term implications for the hobby as a whole and is likely to hasten the demise of more model shops.

 

 

This is one of the reasons I buy locomotives and vehicles from my local models shop, Lord and Butler in Cardiff; I realise that I am very fortunate to have such a shop available to me, and that many modellers are perforce required to rely on mail order online purchases because of geography.  I also prefer to see the model in the flesh before Peter sees the colour of my money, and, if it is a loco, confirm that it runs properly, which is shop policy; nothing goes out of the door without a test run.

 

L & B are a city edge shop on a trading estate with low overheads, not an upmarket town centre location, and are in fact an hour and 2 buses away, and I suspect that such locations will become the norm for such outlets as high street rents rise and turnover doesn't...

Edited August 7, 2017 by The Johnster

[The Johnster]

This cannot be a win-win situation for all if you include the smaller model shop that provides its customers with all the other things a modeller might need. I often seem to see comments on a model shop closure topic along the lines ' such a pity I always used it to get the paints and glues I need and now I will have to drive x miles to model shop Y or rely on the internet'. Model shops cannot survive on the bits and bobs we might need. They need to have a steady supply of new large price items with reasonable mark up on each item. When a model appears as an exclusive with one shop, it must by definition, reduce the income of all other retailers. Certainly that is the effect on my buying pattern, I do, like most people have a limited budget for the hobby. I am certainly not saying that this wrong, in a business terms it makes great sense for those who can commission models and for the manufacturers in this very challenging economic climate; I am saying that it is a business model that will have long term implications for the hobby as a whole and is likely to hasten the demise of more model shops.

[frobisher]

Simples you would never get agreement ie a Scottish shop would want a totally different model than say a Hampshire shop. Plain common sense when you stop and think about it

Any consortium would be filled with like minded rather than disparate views, which is in fact plainer common sense...

 

Obviously the GWR models I keep seeing in local model shops are never going to sell up here...

Edited August 7, 2017 by frobisher

[40F]

Any consortium would be filled with like minded rather than disparate views, which is in fact plainer common sense...

 

Obviously the GWR models I keep seeing in local model shops are never going to sell up here...

 

 

Also it has been tried [ or attempted ] before and never got off the ground. 

[Clearwater]

I don`t think this would as there would be too many requirements and a general agreement would be hard if not impossible to reach

  

I strongly suspect that if a small group of retailers formed a commissioning consortium, their biggest issue would in fact be agreeing on what to commission. Reviewing CAD is a trivial exercise at that point because the consortium should only have one point of contact in or out of (in this case) Bachmann and Bachmann should have an agreed point of contact to the consortium. What each party does within itself is a matter for that party.Thing is, there is NO harm in a manufacturer leading the process for a model that will be narrowly available. It still doesn't make it a "normal release", because it isn't. It doesn't make it more or less accurate than a "normal release" by default. Greater commissioner input doesn't necessarily make it a better model either. The only thing you can guarantee is that a commissioned model (regardless of who leads...) will cost more than an equivalent "normal release" because of how it needs to recover its costs.

I broadly agree with Frobisher. When we've previously discussed commissioning models on rmweb, particularly on a crowd funded basis, the two big issues are a) the amount of capital required to get designed, tooled, produced and landed into the UK models and b) how a disparate group of investors look to make a decision. Inherent in b) is the risk that someone who wants a model but if the model is not exactly what they want pulls out leaving a funding hole/surplus stock to absorb. Clearly that is less of a risk to a consortium with an established distribution model.

 

Any group of model shops commissioning a model are in a very different position to the crowdfunders. Their motive is simple - to provide profit for their business/meet their customer's need/create a reason for customers to shop with you etc. As such, you would expect sentiment to be less prevalent. Drawing up a Joint Venture agreement would have challenges but not be without precedent. Split of costs and associated liabilities being the key one. Why would one shop owner take credit risk on another? If i was the supplier to the JV, I'd want to see/understand how the entity is funded. If I was going into JV, I'd want to understand how the agreement protected me against my partners discounting their stock and undercutting me.

 

However, there's another issue. There was a thread earlier today showing a regional model shop for sale. That suggested a turnover of £50k pa and profit of £29k. If a model to delivery costs say £150k, how much are they prepared to put up on spec? £25k? More? That may well be more than the trade value of all the other stock in the shop and makes the commission a very big risk for the small business. If it were me, I'd have to be super convinced to risk my capital on an A5 tank or whatever the perceived market gap. I'd suggest threads like the 48xx, Dean Goods etc where every flaw is micro analysed may not help persuade small shop owners to take those risks....

 

That takes me back to the "getting agreement" point. There's no reason why, subject to capital availability, any shop cannot do what Rails,kernow and Hattons have done and commission their own model. There's no reason why one shop couldn't underwrite a project, e.g. Develop to point of tooling, and then offer the option to other shops to buy into the scheme at that point (effectively syndicating the risk when the costs rise to material levels). Of course, the risks are lower at that point and you'd expect the prime mover to take a larger profit. If others want in earlier and to share the greater profit, the parties merely need to agree how to make decisions. Happens every day in the commercial world from the complex (eg Euro fighter) to the more mundane (property development).

 

However, unlike 40F who clearly owns a model shop (albeit they opt not to publicise which one as is their perogative), I do not work in this business so I may be missing a subtly I'm missing.

 

David

[Clearwater]

Simples you would never get agreement ie a Scottish shop would want a totally different model than say a Hampshire shop. Plain common sense when you stop and think about it

Only "common sense" if no-one ever moved away from the place they were born and only modelled what they can/could see in the locality. Whilst I'm sure there is some regional bias, shops will make material out of region sales. From a casual observation of location on Rmweb, its clear there are GWR modellers in the north east, the eastern region and various parts of the USA and Canada. It would be extremely surprising if fans of other regions solely inhabited those...

 

Common sense is to partner with those who share a vision common to you. Clearly partnering with someone who has different aspirations to you would be foolish.

 

David

[adb968008]

One problem with exclusive commissioned models is the very high price of some of them.

Take the NRM's Ivatt Atlantic, the BR weathered one, £ 181.00, and that was before

Bacnmann's recent round of price rises. I did buy one to support the NRM. ( and Sandra gave me a sweet ).

 

The Kernow ' Thumper ' was another one, I declined on this one.

 

To be fair, I purchased a Model Rail USA tank at Warley last year for £110.00, Which I thought was good value.

and a superb model.

And that's the frustration...

Exclusives aren't limited editions, they are limited to how many the exclusive producer can sell... both initially and in later batches.

 

I bought 2 more USA tanks than thought, as I was worried it was buy now or forever hold your peace, only to find them discounted at Warley and further runs of another announced for the sold out one.

DP1 (and City of Truro) is another example of this, though these haven't been discounted.

 

In future I'm a bit more buyer beware on exclusives, as exclusive doesn't always mean limited or "sell out" upon release, and even these are subject to discount along the way. I haven't expressed interest in the Wisbech tram and the GNR Stirling single as a result.

 

It's clear money talks, and it doesn't matter who's tool room the tooling sits in, if there's opportunity, it will eventually be taken.. someday I reckon even those £60 coal wagons by Hornby will make a reappearance.

 

My money is a GWR 61xx coming down the road from someone, a 4-REP too has to be an easy guess.

Edited August 7, 2017 by adb968008

[Mark Saunders]

Only "common sense" if no-one ever moved away from the place they were born and only modelled what they can/could see in the locality. Whilst I'm sure there is some regional bias, shops will make material out of region sales. From a casual observation of location on Rmweb, its clear there are GWR modellers in the north east, the eastern region and various parts of the USA and Canada. It would be extremely surprising if fans of other regions solely inhabited those...

 

Common sense is to partner with those who share a vision common to you. Clearly partnering with someone who has different aspirations to you would be foolish.

 

David

 

The magic of the internet means that you can find out about products and purchase them all from the comfort of your own armchair.

 

Using the logic of some of the posts you should not be able to purchase American models from shops in the UK!

 

Mark Saunders

[40F]

Only "common sense" if no-one ever moved away from the place they were born and only modelled what they can/could see in the locality. Whilst I'm sure there is some regional bias, shops will make material out of region sales. From a casual observation of location on Rmweb, its clear there are GWR modellers in the north east, the eastern region and various parts of the USA and Canada. It would be extremely surprising if fans of other regions solely inhabited those...

 

Common sense is to partner with those who share a vision common to you. Clearly partnering with someone who has different aspirations to you would be foolish.

 

David

 

 

Why ? I am only putting my point of view. The whole project would struggle to get off the ground. As I said before various have tried it before. Crowd funding is normally an idea by one person/company { DJM for example] that is funded by interested individuals/members of the public.. 

[Clearwater]

Why ? I am only putting my point of view. The whole project would struggle to get off the ground. As I said before various have tried it before. Crowd funding is normally an idea by one person/company { DJM for example] that is funded by interested individuals/members of the public..

 

And I'm sure that if the question had been asked 5-10 years ago whether Hattons could commission their own models and deal with factories direct, there would have been a similarly negative response. I believe that for years people said the A1 Steam Trust were dreamers...

 

I'm well aware what crowdfunding is - I'm not sure I follow your point. Others shops have succeeded. All it takes is some gumption/leadership and a few like minded individuals willing to take a risk.

[The Johnster]

And that's the frustration...

Exclusives aren't limited editions, they are limited to how many the exclusive producer can sell... both initially and in later batches.

 

I bought 2 more USA tanks than thought, as I was worried it was buy now or forever hold your peace, only to find them discounted at Warley and further runs of another announced for the sold out one.

DP1 (and City of Truro) is another example of this, though these haven't been discounted.

 

In future I'm a bit more buyer beware on exclusives, as exclusive doesn't always mean limited or "sell out" upon release, and even these are subject to discount along the way. I haven't expressed interest in the Wisbech tram and the GNR Stirling single as a result.

 

It's clear money talks, and it doesn't matter who's tool room the tooling sits in, if there's opportunity, it will eventually be taken.. someday I reckon even those £60 coal wagons by Hornby will make a reappearance.

 

My money is a GWR 61xx coming down the road from someone, a 4-REP too has to be an easy guess.

 

Never understood the trade's obsession with the 61xx, from Graham Farish in the 50s through to Airfix.  There were only 70 of these locos produced, and until the very end of steam they were restricted to the London area.  The 5101 was spread across the GWR and WR, and totalled 140 locos, so not only were there twice as many but they were much better spread out over a wider area and would, one might have though, have a wider appeal as a model.  

 

I know, I'm splitting hairs, the locos look the same as you cannot physically model a higher boiler pressure, and all you need to do to make a 61xx into a 5101 is to renumber it, but it just seems odd that a greater number of modellers have to do this admittedly minor alteration to obtain the model they want.

 

I assume you are suggesting a re-issue of the Hornby Airfix derivate, which isn't a bad model.

[Hilux5972]

Never understood the trade's obsession with the 61xx, from Graham Farish in the 50s through to Airfix. There were only 70 of these locos produced, and until the very end of steam they were restricted to the London area. The 5101 was spread across the GWR and WR, and totalled 140 locos, so not only were there twice as many but they were much better spread out over a wider area and would, one might have though, have a wider appeal as a model.

 

I know, I'm splitting hairs, the locos look the same as you cannot physically model a higher boiler pressure, and all you need to do to make a 61xx into a 5101 is to renumber it, but it just seems odd that a greater number of modellers have to do this admittedly minor alteration to obtain the model they want.

 

I assume you are suggesting a re-issue of the Hornby Airfix derivate, which isn't a bad model.

One tooling could do the 31xx, 41xx, 5101, and 61xx loco. The 81xx would require a different chassis arrangement due to having a different wheel size.

[40F]

  

I

However, unlike 40F who clearly owns a model shop (albeit they opt not to publicise which one as is their perogative), I do not work in this business so I may be missing a subtly I'm missing.

 

David

 

 

Do I own a model shop. ? What a statement to make. Rubbish  I do know a few model shop owners and have helped a few so I have picked up a few things over the years. Or may be I am playing devils advocate and putting another argument forward.

Edited August 11, 2017 by 40F

[JSpencer]

And that's the frustration...

Exclusives aren't limited editions, they are limited to how many the exclusive producer can sell... both initially and in later batches.

 

I bought 2 more USA tanks than thought, as I was worried it was buy now or forever hold your peace, only to find them discounted at Warley and further runs of another announced for the sold out one.

DP1 (and City of Truro) is another example of this, though these haven't been discounted.

 

In future I'm a bit more buyer beware on exclusives, as exclusive doesn't always mean limited or "sell out" upon release, and even these are subject to discount along the way. I haven't expressed interest in the Wisbech tram and the GNR Stirling single as a result.

 

It's clear money talks, and it doesn't matter who's tool room the tooling sits in, if there's opportunity, it will eventually be taken.. someday I reckon even those £60 coal wagons by Hornby will make a reappearance.

 

My money is a GWR 61xx coming down the road from someone, a 4-REP too has to be an easy guess.

 

My own experience with limited editions is that they will only fetch more than the original price just shortly after release because word gets around and there will be people suddenly wanting one. The same happens to exclusives if they are sold out and even a normal production run (Peckett springs to mind as a recent case). Now there can be limited editions and exclusives not sold out at the time of release and some may take ages to sell (again the same for normal runs). Like any item taking too long to sell, it can end up discounted.

The only limited editions which held their price was Wrenn (there were not many to start with). I expect this to cave in at some point as Wrenn collectors become fewer and sibblings wish to dispose of them.

 

You will find some items holding and selling for more than their original price (this happens often to many Southern items), but this will be regardless of whether it is a normal run, limited or exclusive. There is utterly no rule to say what will fetch more (maybe southern is your best bet - but not everything will reach that).

I personally expect the Hornby Ivatt Duchess to fly off the shelves but equally Hornby have expanded its production to cope with the mass of orders. So it is 50/50 as to whether or not it will fetch more. If it does, it will be within the first year of release, thereafter only if Hornby do not do further runs and it continues to be sought after (for example: some Thomas items are fetching silly money because Hornby do not wish to pay the license fee for some).

 

Anyone who buys model trains as an investment, must be prepared to be disappointed, some may sell on for more, others will not. I buy trains because I want a model of the loco etc in question. 

 

You can wait to see if it is discounted or buy it right away hoping it retains or increases in value. Both have risks. Personally for something I really want, it is a pre-order. Like to have but not bothered about then wait for a bargain.

Edited August 8, 2017 by JSpencer

[adb968008]

I would never advise anyone to buy trains as an investment.

Just about every model since the 1980's loses money at some point.

The only reason 70/early 80's stuff gained value is inflation, even then were not talking much above 10-20%.

 

My point wasn't about the financials, it's about the desire, which is also deflating.

 

An exclusive, suggests its unique and much of the marketing suggests it's "buy now gone forever", runs of 350-500 models etc etc.

The reality is, if that 350 sold out in advance, we'll bump it to 500, but then ok ok nice little earner we'll run another batch, and another.. Locking in price doesn't hold water anymore either, as nothing is locked, that can go up tomorrow too.

 

So more fool me,I ordered in the belief of initial marketing.. its exclusive, its only 350.. so I'll buy two/three now, renumber etc as I might not get another chance...only to find, well actually I've as many chances as I could possibly want after all. So next time I see that exclusive ad... I think you know what.. I'll wait till it's discounted after release or the 2nd, 3rd run.. as there's plenty more where that came from, and being exclusive I don't need to hunt the market as I know exactly where to find them.

 

It doesn't apply to all, but the gene pool of exclusives keep shrinking every year as they creep into manufacturers catalogs as general availability... class 14/28 just happened, I'll assume the 76/77 will follow, though at least those would already priced at current market prices :-)

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the bold ventures of exclusives, but just like Limas limited editions of the 1990's, Bachmann annual wooden box releases of the mid90's the market bubble will burst when confidence is lost, then we lose the exclusives, it's only then the financial losses hits the consumer.

 

What I think may start to happen, is when the exclusives start drying up, and factories start becoming idle, you may see manufacturers in China start promoting their own editions direct sales online only from the factory to consumer cutting out the retailer.

Edited August 8, 2017 by adb968008

[dibber25]

And that's the frustration...

Exclusives aren't limited editions, they are limited to how many the exclusive producer can sell... both initially and in later batches.

 

I bought 2 more USA tanks than thought, as I was worried it was buy now or forever hold your peace, only to find them discounted at Warley and further runs of another announced for the sold out one.

DP1 (and City of Truro) is another example of this, though these haven't been discounted.

 

In future I'm a bit more buyer beware on exclusives, as exclusive doesn't always mean limited or "sell out" upon release, and even these are subject to discount along the way. I haven't expressed interest in the Wisbech tram and the GNR Stirling single as a result.

 

It's clear money talks, and it doesn't matter who's tool room the tooling sits in, if there's opportunity, it will eventually be taken.. someday I reckon even those £60 coal wagons by Hornby will make a reappearance.

 

My money is a GWR 61xx coming down the road from someone, a 4-REP too has to be an easy guess.

They weren't discounted at Warley. They were minus the post and handling charge. It would be unreasonable to charge people handling and postage when they are picking it up off the counter. We've had no need to discount the USA but we have had a need to satisfy prospective customers who didn't get the lined green one the first time around. The difference between exclusives and limited editions is not just about how they are sold and in what quantities, it's also about why they are bought. Limited editions are often bought as an investment on the basis that their 'limited' nature will see them increase in value. Exclusives are not intended as an investment item - they are (mostly) bought to be used. As a result, it's of no consequence to the purchaser if there are lots of them, or if multiple runs are produced. (CJL)

[tomparryharry]

Only "common sense" if no-one ever moved away from the place they were born and only modelled what they can/could see in the locality. Whilst I'm sure there is some regional bias, shops will make material out of region sales. From a casual observation of location on Rmweb, its clear there are GWR modellers in the north east, the eastern region and various parts of the USA and Canada. It would be extremely surprising if fans of other regions solely inhabited those...

 

Common sense is to partner with those who share a vision common to you. Clearly partnering with someone who has different aspirations to you would be foolish.

 

David

What's this? Modelling outside your area? I thought everyone modelled Great Western. That's the only way to go. Now LMS, that's a niche market....

 

Hat, coat, TAXI!!!

[it's-er]

..... better still, head for the other (LNER) station across town!

 

John

[adb968008]

They weren't discounted at Warley. They were minus the post and handling charge. It would be unreasonable to charge people handling and postage when they are picking it up off the counter. We've had no need to discount the USA but we have had a need to satisfy prospective customers who didn't get the lined green one the first time around. The difference between exclusives and limited editions is not just about how they are sold and in what quantities, it's also about why they are bought. Limited editions are often bought as an investment on the basis that their 'limited' nature will see them increase in value. Exclusives are not intended as an investment item - they are (mostly) bought to be used. As a result, it's of no consequence to the purchaser if there are lots of them, or if multiple runs are produced. (CJL)

I I'm confused but somehow stand corrected on the discount, the website says they are "post free for UK orders", not inclusive of £10 postage costs, my apologies for misinterpreting the website statement ??

 

http://www.modelrailoffers.co.uk/p/50847/MR-105-MR-Bachmann-USA-0-6-0T-Steam-Locomotive-number-300

 

but they were (iirc £10 ?) cheaper at Warley which was a surprise, had I not pre-ordered I could have saved myself £40 on my 4..., ( my 4 came in one parcel after a delay till all were in stock. was I overcharged for postage as I've paid £40 then ?), indeed had I not believed they were "here now gone tomorrow", I might have saved myself £155 (1 less and £30 postage.. which the website says is post free?), the original 2009 advert says only a maximum of 500 each are being produced...but it's now 500 (didn't 30064 go to 750?) + a 2nd run.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=168505

(Last paragraph, left hand side).

 

Other exclusives have been discounted (I'm not singling out MRE here there's many cases littering the current and past of discounted exclusives by various retailers).

I'm also not gunning or complaining, so I'm happy to leave it here, but as you responded I felt I should address that one with the facts I had on that instance that lead to my misinterpretation.

 

I disagree on limited editions rising in value however, it may be the retailers desire but in practice most limited editions have a lifespan, which they peak, and then permanently fall below their original retail. The only models that tend to rise in value are the unexpected sell outs.. Pecketts being the most recent example, SECR c class before it, even the IC liveried MK3 DVT coach is pushing £100, none of these are limited edition or exclusive, but again even these have a finite lifespan..if Hornby announces a re-run (Like Exeter) they'll sink like a stone again.

 

Model railways isn't about an investment, but in a high priced market the days of "must have or miss out" look shallow for those who buy to play too.

Edited August 8, 2017 by adb968008

[PrestburyJack]

I I'm confused but somehow stand corrected on the discount, the website says they are "post free for UK orders", not inclusive of £10 postage costs, my apologies for misinterpreting the website statement ??

 

The website has a banner which reads:

 

 Post Free UK Orders. More details 

 

The important bit is "More details".

 

Further down the page, under "Delivery Options" it says:

• Orders weighing under 2Kg.  Normally despatched by Royal Mail 1st Class Post.
  • £4 per order if the total order value before postage is under £150.
  • FREE if the total order value is over £150.
• Orders weighing over 2Kg.  Normally despatched by our couriers Interlink Express.
  • £4 per order if the total order value before postage is under £150.
  • FREE if the total order value is over £150.

 

Cheers, Gary

Edited August 8, 2017 by PrestburyJack

[adb968008]

The website has a banner which reads:

 

Post Free UK Orders. More details >>>

 

The important bit is "More details".

 

Further down the page, under "Delivery Options" it says:

 

 

• Orders weighing under 2Kg. Normally despatched by Royal Mail 1st Class Post.
  • £4 per order if the total order value before postage is under £150.
  • FREE if the total order value is over £150.
• Orders weighing over 2Kg. Normally despatched by our couriers Interlink Express.
  • £4 per order if the total order value before postage is under £150.
  • FREE if the total order value is over £150.

Cheers, Gary

But that isn't consistent with...

They weren't discounted at Warley. They were minus the post and handling charge. It would be unreasonable to charge people handling and postage when they are picking it up off the counter.

IIRC warley they were £115 , vs the websites... £125 (and presumably +£4 postage ?)

 

Anyway, past is the past, I'm happy to let this one our there, my comments initially were intended to be generic, not specific, certainly not pick an issue nearly a year on, my USAs run fine, even if I have at least 1 more than I would have otherwise bought... I bought a 2nd '64 to renumber as '73 thinking it's buy now or never, but as the bunker is way off I've left it as is... hopefully someday that bunker will be tooled.

Edited August 8, 2017 by adb968008

[PrestburyJack]

But that isn't consistent with...

IIRC warley they were £115 , vs the websites... £125 (and presumably +£4 postage ?)

 

Anyway, past is the past, I'm happy to let this one our there, my comments initially were intended to be generic, not specific, certainly not pick an issue nearly a year on, my USAs run fine, even if I have at least 1 more than I would have otherwise bought.

 

Are you sure that the Warley price you are quoting wasn't for Model Rail Subscribers, also, some of the very first models released were sold at the original price quoted when first advertised. I bought some from each batch, and paid different prices depending on when I ordered, some were as low as £94.95 with discount, others £117.95 before discount as costs increased.

Edited August 8, 2017 by PrestburyJack

[adb968008]

Are you sure that the Warley price you are quoting wasn't for Model Rail Subscribers, also, some of the very first models released were sold at the original price quoted when first advertised. I bought some from each batch, and paid different prices depending on when I ordered, some were as low as £94.95 with discount, others £117.95 before discount as costs increased.

No idea, as I said previously, it's a year ago, it's confusing.

 

[edit: I just looked up the Warley 2016 thread, they were actually £110 as a show offer].. that's £15 off the website price ..

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/107810-warley-nec-exhibition-november-26th-and-27th-2016/?p=2512883

[end edit]

 

My thoughts were generic, someone put a response with a specific example, to which I thought I could relate my own experience as a customer to.

 

If I'm confused, I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Did I miss out on saving £60 postage ?, did I rush to spend £125 needlessly in an extra one thinking it was going forever..who knows, in model railways it isn't my first or last to lose out on a model price, as long as I get enjoyment from it, but with each experience I learn to approach the next purchase differently, which is the point I've tried to make... I'm becoming reluctant to preorder exclusives, as in a high price market "must have now or miss out" marketing message is losing its strength, when reruns, discounts, delayed GA releases etc occur with increasing regularity down the road, regardless the manufacturer or the commisioner.

 

In the old days consumer confidence was met by witnessing the destruction of paint masks of limited editions to prevent an identical release, though I recall 4771 Green Arrow as an exclusive limited edition in wooden box, only for the warning flashes to be changed to late 90's version in an identical in all but technicalities GA release occur, so it's not a new problem.

Edited August 9, 2017 by adb968008