ZTC or NCE DCC system?

[swiftbeam]

Hi Guys,

 

I'm new here (first post) so hello :-)

 

I dabbled for a very short time in 00 DCC some years ago with an NCE Power cab system. I really liked it. However, I saw the ZTC 611 DCC controller at a show and was taken by the control levers, metal case and the general look. It was also nice that the company is based not too far from me and being British made, advice maybe easy to get when I need it?

 

I know the NCE is about £150 and the ZTC is £460 :-O

I also know that the power cab has more features.

 

I will not be putting any large demands on my DCC system, I also don't like computers, programming or buttons. I also think trains are best controlled with leavers. I like metal cases and a fixed base unit. All my likes do add up to the 611 (and that is why it caught my eye) BUT the 611 is hugely more expensive than the NCE, and the NCE is probably a better controller.

 

My layout is just a branch line with two sidings and a passing loop. A basic controller will do the job, but DCC seems to make the models run smoother at low speeds, and I like that.

 

Does it just come down to money or would I be losing something much more by not buying the NCE?

 

Thank you.

Edited August 13, 2017 by swiftbeam

[swiftbeam]

Hummm, not a popular controller then, LOL

[Dungrange]

As someone who hasn't yet committed to DCC, but is thinking of doing so, I tend to read these type of threads on RMWeb to see what replies are given.  The advice offered by the more knowledgeable contributors is usually always the same - play with a range of controllers from one of the specialist retailers and pick the one that suits you best.  Ergonomics is an important factor in picking a controller.  It has to feel right in the way you want to use it. From reading these threads on RMWeb, the NCE Power Cab would seem to be by far the more popular of these two models, but that may simply be because many people cannot afford to spend nearly £500 on a controller.

 

I've seen the ZTC controllers that you are looking at at several exhibitions, and if that is the interface you like and can afford, then I see no reason why not to buy it.  However, I've never looked at the ZTC with any view to purchasing it largely because of its price, which is beyond what I am willing to pay, and I think other controllers in that price bracket tend to have functions that are more popular.

 

Perhaps you should just read one of the threads on the ZTC 611 such as

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/70359-ztc-611-updated-controller/ to see what others think of it and then make up your own mind.

[peter220950]

I don't think it's a decision that can be made rationally, the NCE is a third the price, its probably far more advanced technically, has a better dealer/suport network that's far more stable, but it doesn't have a nice lever to control it, so on that basis you would be mad to buy a 611. But life isn't quite that clear cut, I think of it as being the samge decision as buying a Morgan, do you go for a sports car made out of wood or a technically advanced carbon fibre missile.

 

I must declare a bias, I have two 511's, and have owned one since 2006, at the time David Nicholson took the trouble to visit our Club to demonstrate and we have been running 511's ever since, with about 12 members buying them as well.

 

They are pretty bulletproof controllers, but over the years a few of the members have turned to other machines for a number of reasons, none have regretted the decision to change. We are looking to change control systems and looked at the 611 but have decided to go down a different route.

 

Why? - well it has to be said the ZTC architecture doesn't include for any means of feedback, a major problem if you want to pass signals back from devices. You might not want this now, but who lnows what the future might hold.

 

With regard to being able to get advice when you need it, we are also on about the fourth or fifth owner of the Company in the last ten years or so, not a problem in itself, but we had several periods when the product, and support network, was unavailable, not good if you needed extra bits. It's not a multinational so don't rely on it being available next year, one man outfits are subject to all sorts of unforseen events that radically change the game.

 

The 611 doesn't seem to be a great advance on the 511, and its hard to justify the cost just for a nice control handle, we are looking to incorporate the MERG controller into a 511 case as a compromise.

 

So unless you want one just because you really need it I can't say I would think it to be a good idea.

 

That said I still love my 511's to bits, and there's one other thing to bear in mind. About 5 years ago I was getting a 511 out of the roof and dropped it, it went down about ten feet onto the landing, then down a flight of stairs, needless to say I plugged it in and it worked as usual, the only repair cost being abot £4 for some filler to the stair wall. If you need that sort of build quality give it some thought. If it had been an NCE it would probably have smashed to bits, but then you would still have £300 to buy another.

 

So there you are, heart or head? You choose.

 

Peter

[Pete the Elaner]

The problem with a direct answer is that there are few people with personal experience of both systems, so it is hard to give an accurate answer. Most users start with 1 system, enjoy its benefits & learn to cope with its deficiencies.

 

Edit: The above reply was posted while I was typing this.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Pete the Elaner

[John K]

I have experience with a number of systems.

I'm happy with Lenz, Digitrax, NCE and Uhlenbrock.

As for ZTC, if you can't say anything nice, say nothing.

John K

[njee20]

I've got a 511, and really like the tactility of it. I've recently bought a second hand ECoS to play with. I don't like the NCE systems at all, just don't like the form factor. I also don't like the Z21 or anything else that uses your phone, I like nice tactile buttons and knobs (stop sniggering at the back).

 

The ZTC is hideously overpriced, and the dealer support (or lack thereof) would concern me, it's also a very outdated controller (even the 611) compared to others a fraction of the price.

 

Really though you just need to play with some and see what works for you. If you like the ZTC and are happy with its short comings then go nuts!

[swiftbeam]

It's looking like the case for the NCE is compelling. Having used one before, and liked it, and being £150 (not £460!) Not buying another would be rather silly!

 

I'll just have to dream about controlling my locos wth a leaver!

 

Thanks for your pointers.

 

Is Digitrains the UK importer?

Edited August 13, 2017 by swiftbeam

[traction]

I would take a look at my quick review of the ZTC 611.

 

I have actually sold it, but only because I've had to move home and down size on everything!

It's a very nice controller and Graham is working on a big better touch screen that should just plug into it.

 

Link to review below.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106867-dcc-controller-list-basic-review-by-owners/?p=2160279

 

Best to try some more controllers as there are loads about now.

You want a lever, as a cheap alternative what about a Digitrax Zephyr extra?

Has a lever for the brake and sort of lever for speed control, but much cheaper?

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited August 13, 2017 by traction

[Nigelcliffe]

It's looking like the case for the NCE is compelling. Having used one before, and liked it, and being £150 (not £460!) Not buying another would be rather silly!

 

I'll just have to dream about controlling my locos wth a leaver!

 

Thanks for your pointers.

 

Is Digitrains the UK importer?

 

 

Digitrains is a UK retailer, as are several other good quality DCC retailers.  

 

As far as I know, there isn't an import agent as such for NCE.

 

 

- Nigel

[Colin_McLeod]

It is clear from the OP that he pefers the ZTC and is (a) looking for confirmation and (b) would have already got one if it was a bit cheaper.

 

 

I say "go for it" and get the one you really want. This is a hobby and if you can afford a particular piece of kit and want it, then it is not necessary to justify it to some finance committee.

 

I have two ZTC command stations and a hand-held and love them.

[Dungrange]

It's looking like the case for the NCE is compelling. Having used one before, and liked it, and being £150 (not £460!) Not buying another would be rather silly!

 

I'll just have to dream about controlling my locos with a lever!

 

Don't just dream.

 

If you can afford the ZTC and that is what you really want (which I think is the case), then buying the NCE may not be the correct choice for you, even if it may seem the more logical or rational one.  You have to buy the one that will make you happy - the one that ticks your boxes.  The one that you will enjoy operating.  Spending £150 on the NCE Power Cab and then wishing that it had a ZTC style interface doesn't sound like a route to contentment. The ZTC system may be £300 more expensive, but that's only the cost of two locomotives these days - do you need any more, or do you, like many of us, already have a few too many?  Is compromising the user experience you desire for a couple of extra locomotives worth it?

 

Looking at comments on the ZTC, it looks as though past releases have had issues and many feel that it is overpriced for its functionality, but those who actually own a ZTC seem to like it and I think the driving experience is its main selling point - which is what attracts you too.  Whilst, the ZTC may lack some functionality that is available in other systems in a similar price bracket, if you are not going to use the greater functionality, what is the point in having it?  What is the point of having to sacrifice the driving experience that you desire for greater functionality that you don't think you will need?

 

Ultimately, not all decisions are rational.  Whatever you decide, I hope you make the choice that will make you happy.

[njee20]

Theoretically, if you buy a system today, there's a possibility the company went bust last week or even last month, and your "friendly" sales person will happily sell you anything (s)he needs to get rid of in a hurry just because the supplier went belly up   That's a risk with small suppliers, while larger ones frankly have less chance of this scenario occurring due to their size/better distributed cash-flow. That too is a consideration, be it a minor one, in your choice.

It's also a bit of a red herring IMO. As a general rule people buy into an ecosystem and then stick with it for many years. DCC systems aren't, in the main, modular where people are constantly buying bits that go with your control system. If you buy a ZTC today and they cease trading (again) tomorrow you don't really lose much. Worst case is that it fails within the warranty period and you'd have to pay someone to fix it or in the event of a total failure of the motherboard you may have to search NOS or second hand items, but that's a lot of ifs and "what-abouterry".

 

As I've said I'm happy with my 511, I've started sniffing around other things because it's starting to play up a bit, but Taunton Controls do a very reasonable repair service I'll probably take them up on at some point. It has some shortcomings (and I don't use sound, so I'm probably not constrained by some), but it's a good controller. To loop back to (and arguably contradict) my initial point I have a 622 handheld controller for it, so I'm heavily invested in the ecosystem and slightly reluctant to start again with something I don't actually like in use.

 

FWIW I think the Digitrax Zephyr feels really cheap in use, not a fan at all.

 

As others have said, if you like the ZTC, and can afford it, then go nuts! The issue at the moment seems to be actually procuring one!

[swiftbeam]

Thank you guys for all your help.

So it seems it's not such an easy decision!

 

I don't like a 'cheap feel', I like a quality product that feels good to use. I've looked at the other controllers you have all talked about, some look cheap, some look VERY complicated!

 

I don't like the fact that the ZTC keeps changing hands and supply 'seems' like an issue. If the main selling point of the ZTC is it's 'look' and 'feel', and people are happy to pay double for that, even with other problems, then it would seem the other manufactures are missing a HUGE trick ??

 

I also note that the ZTC 611 now supports 28 functions, so it should be fine with sound (and everything else) am I correct? It would appear that most people are talking about the older ZTC, but I'd be buying the newer 611 if I bought ZTC. Are we still talking about a restricted controller on the 611 or is this version much closer to the 'norm' now?

[swiftbeam]

OK, update !!

 

 

The 611 is now out of production and not available to buy new, and now never will be !

There is a new 612 coming out at some point (maybe end of 2017) the price is yet to be fixed, but is thought to be around £650ish. It will have a tablet sized screen and give more functionality and fix some of the issues of the 611 etc.

 

I'm not waiting for an unknown length of time, I'm not paying £650 and I can't buy a new 611, so that's me out.

 

Seems odd to develop a product first and then work out the price at the end, that's a backward way to to develop, and does not say much for the business brain behind the product. You have to work out a target price first and 'try' and stick to it, any other way is setting yourself up for a fall.

[Pete the Elaner]

I understand ZTC is produced by an enthusiast.

I assume that the designer's priority was to get it to work properly & address the issues which existed with the 611. Then charge as much as necessary to cover costs.

 

It is a bit like comparing a Ferrari with a Fiat.

 

Fiat work out a target price. Meeting this is their primary objective so they design a car to fit the price.

Ferrari design it around performance then charge what they need to meet the costs. They spend the same on development but have to recover the costs on a fraction of the number of sales.

Which one is better? It depends how you define it. If your definition is a more reliable, cheaper to run vehicle which can take 4 people with luggage then the Fiat is better.

If you want more fun & can accept higher service bills with a few issues along the way, then you will like the Ferrari.

 

Applying this to the DCC systems: If you want a well-supported system which will not cost a fortune & is also upgradeable at a reasonable cost, then NCE.

If you want something which feels more like a loco, then ZTC, but you will have to pay a premium for this.

[njee20]

Be interesting to see that. The 611 did seem a bit of a halfway house - it did address many of the issues with the 511, but still looked outdated; tiny b&w screen, circuitous programming etc.

At £650 that puts it square alongside the ECoS which obviously has a loyal following and well established distribution channels.

Edited August 14, 2017 by njee20

[two tone green]

Well this will make 611 owners happy.

 

 

OK, update !!

 

 

The 611 is now out of production and not available to buy new, and now never will be !

There is a new 612 coming out at some point (maybe end of 2017) the price is yet to be fixed, but is thought to be around £650ish. It will have a tablet sized screen and give more functionality and fix some of the issues of the 611 etc.

 

I'm not waiting for an unknown length of time, I'm not paying £650 and I can't buy a new 611, so that's me out.

 

Seems odd to develop a product first and then work out the price at the end, that's a backward way to to develop, and does not say much for the business brain behind the product. You have to work out a target price first and 'try' and stick to it, any other way is setting yourself up for a fall.

[swiftbeam]

What you 'we' think of the Sig-naTrack Ace2 (with 5 amp power and hand held)

 

Thanks :-)

[dhjgreen]

What you 'we' think of the Sig-naTrack Ace2 (with 5 amp power and hand held)

 

Thanks :-)

Only being able to assign a loco to a hand control from the base station has put me off.

[Dungrange]

What you 'we' think of the Sig-naTrack Ace2 (with 5 amp power and hand held)

 

Thanks :-)

 

Well, it's certainly one of the contenders that I am looking at, but a very different driving experience from the ZTC.  I like the touch screen, what seems like intuitive navigation and I find reasonably easy to operate when I have tried it at a couple of exhibitions.  I also like the easy access to all 29 functions from a single panel and the fact that these functions can be named (which should make them easier to remember).  The hand held units are a bit basic in terms of functionality, but feel reasonably comfortable in my hand.  However, although I've been shown the capability to assign locomotives to the handsets, I've never tried that out when I've had a play.  However, if I was operating at home, I'd probably just drive from the touch screen and rarely use the handheld.

[njee20]

Well this will make 611 owners happy.

 

 

Both of them?

 

What you 'we' think of the Sig-naTrack Ace2 (with 5 amp power and hand held)

 

Thanks :-)

It was top of my list for something else to try, it looks good for the money certainly.

[Oldddudders]

Well, it's certainly one of the contenders that I am looking at, but a very different driving experience from the ZTC.  I like the touch screen, what seems like intuitive navigation and I find reasonably easy to operate when I have tried it at a couple of exhibitions.  I also like the easy access to all 29 functions from a single panel and the fact that these functions can be named (which should make them easier to remember).  The hand held units are a bit basic in terms of functionality, but feel reasonably comfortable in my hand.  However, although I've been shown the capability to assign locomotives to the handsets, I've never tried that out when I've had a play.  However, if I was operating at home, I'd probably just drive from the touch screen and rarely use the handheld.

 

And your final remark reflects a factor not very much mentioned here - the configuration of a layout. Clearly a single central control point works fine for you, as it would for many others. Not everyone needs hand-held controllers, although many of us prefer them, and with infra-red and radio systems the operator(s) has/have total freedom. My suspicion is that the NCE system would be rather better at that, because it is a US product, and large walkaround basement empires are common there. The OP's stated compact layout design is a world away from needing such things, but if he likes the NCE handheld it will work fine for his modest system, too. 

[swiftbeam]

Hi Guys,

 

This has been a great and really helpful thread :-)

 

After your thoughts, a call to ZTC and Digitrans, I'm almost 100% I'll just buy the Sig-naTrack Ace2  with a 5amp PS incase one day I need it !

 

Thanks.

[tender]

I'm an NCE user and have tried the Sig-Na-Track at exhibitions. Some like the 'touch screen' control and i can do this on my iPhone with the aid of a Raspberry Pi, but i, like many others prefer a control knob/wheel/button that the NCE (and other systems) offer. I'd suggest you give both a try before parting with any money.