Self-driving' lorries to be tested on UK roads

[Mike at C&M]

One thing that always amazes me when driving on the motorways is how people pull into non-existant gaps, and having watched the videos earlier in this thread and seen the spacing between these lorries, I cannot see how they can possibly stay in close convoy when the motorways get slightly congested. 

 

Not a comment on the technology, a comment on the driving habits of those in other vehicles on the road.

[rockershovel]

I'm driving on the A14 two or three days a week at present, and you can ALREADY see lorries driving nose-to-tail, three or more in convoy, any day of the week. I rather doubt that there will be any significant benefit from "drafting", the cost reduction is undoubtedly predicated on eliminating the drivers long-term, and de-skilling them in the short-term.

 

I'd bet folding money on any introduction of such technology, being accompanied by pressure to reduce the training and licensing requirements for the "secondary drivers" with only the lead driver holding a full HGV, and a new category of driver evolving, restricted to driving in convoy between marshalling stops on the motorway network.

[newbryford]

. By not having a driver in the cab for the 2 hours between Northampton and Manchester,

 

I can't do Northampton-Manchester (137 miles) in 2 hours in a car....... let alone a truck.

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by newbryford

[The Stationmaster]

What an excellent discussion. I was really annoyed with the anodyne questions asked by the professional commentators on the TV and radio yesterday. They should have employed some of you. A lot of the comment was on the 10% saving on fuel &  therefore CO2 - which seems marginal compared to the risks involved - especially how other vehicles join motorways, overtake etc.

 

So, yes, I had many of the same thoughts.

 

But the one advantage could be the concept of the trucks coming from different sources being 'electronically coupled together' going to an out of town depot where the goods could be unloaded and formed into small loads for individual destination customers in an area. It is a concept York citizens have asked for, for years. Delivery to old cities such as ours is difficult - time limited with dozens of trucks, some far too large, all vying for space down one small medieval street before 10.00 curfew and destined to the same stores.

 

The concept of lorries all getting together on motorways appears to happen already. I witnessed dozens of DHL trucks all at one north of London service station one evening, partially blocking the exit roads. But they must have been there for a reason.

 

Paul

And yes I also think they are re-inventing the container train.

 

Interesting concept Paul - rather like York Goods long before it became a museum where 'wagons' arrived from all over the country and their contents were sorted into 'rounds' which a single vehicle delivered to each different delivery area in the city (sometimes more than one vehicle because of the volume of traffic of course.

 

And the system was very efficient and fast - attached to the wall in front of me is a corner cupboard while in the hall very nearby is a wooden chest.  These were taken to York Goods by the local carrier and booked in on Day A, on Day C they were at our local branchline terminus west of tLondon on the WR waiting our return from York ready to be delivered.  Nothing as good as the old ideas.

Edited August 27, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[The Stationmaster]

Drivers 2 and 3 will be just steering, but being pulled closer together to save fuel by reducing air turbulence means they'll have less forward vision.

 

Will they have any forward vision at all?  The gap which is small enough to reduce turbulence must be pretty small judging by the fairing on some artic units which is presumably there for the same reason.  So just how does the driver see where he is going and needs to steer?  You could presumably add a cctv link to the control link but that then needs a different approach to anticipation and working out where you are.  And some motorways have some long sweeping bends.

[Mark Saunders]

Will they have any forward vision at all?  The gap which is small enough to reduce turbulence must be pretty small judging by the fairing on some artic units which is presumably there for the same reason.  So just how does the driver see where he is going and needs to steer?  You could presumably add a cctv link to the control link but that then needs a different approach to anticipation and working out where you are.  And some motorways have some long sweeping bends.

 

Will it make much difference as some of the current drivers manage to get so close there is no room between!

[rockershovel]

Given how close you need to be to gain any real benefit from drafting (as has already been discussed) I can't envisage anyone writing a procedure involving drivers deliberately and systematically driving at such close quarters, that they are entirely dependent upon the electronics to stop in an emergency, if at all.

 

After all, ALARP seems simple enough - an automatic lorry could drive as close as you like to the leader, because the risk is simply a commercial one - the value of the cab and tractor unit. Having a driver in there changes the whole situation.

 

Realistically, everyone knows that some drivers habitually drive within feet of the lorry in front, as well as cutting into gaps which are far too small for the vehicle - but I very much doubt that there is a procedure or risk assessment anywhere which permits this. I also imagine (although I stand to be corrected, if anyone knows otherwise) that the GPS trackers used by hauliers, shows lorries other than that users vehicles.

Edited August 27, 2017 by rockershovel

[TT3]

What a great idea. I think they should join a lot more of these trucks together in a long convey and use an automatic guidance system.

Something like two metal rails would work.

 

Better still, put a very big engine in the first one, then just have trailers with cargo behind

[runs as required]

What an excellent discussion. I was really annoyed with the anodyne questions asked by the professional commentators on the TV and radio yesterday. They should have employed some of you. A lot of the comment was on the 10% saving on fuel &  therefore CO2 - which seems marginal compared to the risks involved - especially how other vehicles join motorways, overtake etc.

 

So, yes, I had many of the same thoughts.

 

But the one advantage could be the concept of the trucks coming from different sources being 'electronically coupled together' going to an out of town depot where the goods could be unloaded and formed into small loads for individual destination customers in an area. It is a concept York citizens have asked for, for years. Delivery to old cities such as ours is difficult - time limited with dozens of trucks, some far too large, all vying for space down one small medieval street before 10.00 curfew and destined to the same stores.

 

The concept of lorries all getting together on motorways appears to happen already. I witnessed dozens of DHL trucks all at one north of London service station one evening, partially blocking the exit roads. But they must have been there for a reason.

 

Paul

And yes I also think they are re-inventing the container train.

The silliest of these professional commentators was Christian Woolmer talking about his golf clubs.

I have been partially involved in such forward thinking wearing my former professional planning and transportation hat (contributing to several threads about this on RMweb)

My problem is with the transition to eventual automation and electric drive - which will not be achievable in my lifetime..

 

I can only see the acceptable Inter-Regional answer being a motorway lane dedicated to zero headway 'mixed road trains'. So which one? Should it be the fourth (right hand side) lane away from entry and ext lanes - or the extreme left lane. 

 

dh

[antrobuscp]

I'd bet folding money on any introduction of such technology, being accompanied by pressure to reduce the training and licensing requirements for the "secondary drivers" with only the lead driver holding a full HGV, and a new category of driver evolving, restricted to driving in convoy between marshalling stops on the motorway network.

 

I know, let's call them "Guards".

 

Maybe not.

 

Colin

[NorthBrit]

Driverless wagons?

Some cars are on the road now that come onto the main road and go off without the use of indicators, oblivious to other road users.

 

How would they each cope with each other if they meet?

[APOLLO]

Tailgating was made illegal just a few years ago

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-penalties-to-tackle-tailgating-and-middle-lane-hogging

 

So just how will these trials get around this law ?

 

Brit15

[The Stationmaster]

Tailgating was made illegal just a few years ago

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-penalties-to-tackle-tailgating-and-middle-lane-hogging

 

So just how will these trials get around this law ?

 

Brit15

 

Simples re-write the law (doing so via 'Regulations' which don't need to go through full Parliamentary debate).

[jjb1970]

The problem with all those sensible laws on stuff like tailgating is that they are not enforced because road "policing" has pretty much been transferred to speed cameras. How many Police patrol units do you see these days?

[Reorte]

I'd bet folding money on any introduction of such technology, being accompanied by pressure to reduce the training and licensing requirements for the "secondary drivers" with only the lead driver holding a full HGV, and a new category of driver evolving, restricted to driving in convoy between marshalling stops on the motorway network.

Driving along the motorway already looks like the least skill-requiring part of being an HGV driver (with the big proviso being that I'm not, and never have been, or even set foot in one), especially compared to some of the manouevring in tight spaces I've seen. And any attempt at automation will try to tackle the easy parts first. What's the easy part for a computer isn't always what's the easy part for a human being, but in this case I suspect that they're the same.

[jjb1970]

I for one sleep safe at night having been reassured by knowing that DafT is in charge. With the demonstable record of technical brilliance and impeccable judgement displayed by DafT on other things what could possibly go wrong?

[APOLLO]

Simples re-write the law (doing so via 'Regulations' which don't need to go through full Parliamentary debate).

 

Ahh !! - one law for "them" and one law for "us"

 

T'was ever thus.

 

Brit15

[rockershovel]

I know, let's call them "Guards".

 

Maybe not.

 

Colin

Not so. The guard is the man, the man in the van... whose duties differ significantly from the engine driver.

[bescotbeast]

Tailgating was made illegal just a few years ago

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-penalties-to-tackle-tailgating-and-middle-lane-hogging

 

So just how will these trials get around this law ?

 

Brit15

Pretty much like smoking on stations, it's a stupid rule as nobody enforces it and I see it flouted on a regular basis. The same applies to tailgating, it's not enforced and everybody indulges in it (even me)

[runs as required]

.... What's the easy part for a computer isn't always what's the easy part for a human being...

Interesting point that you make here. Can you expand a bit on it please ?  I have a nephew who is researching such stuff.

 

The medic that lives next door (who used to be OC Intensive Care in these parts till he retired) maintains that machines and A.I. are far better at diagnostic and logistic aspects of keeping patients alive than fallible humans can ever hope to be.

On the other hand, human Physicians have to do the difficult bit defending the A.I. kit (and extremely vulnerable patients) against bloody minded humans who insist on intervening for extremist or ultra orthodox religious doctrines, and budgetary or political/administrative reasons.

dh

[hmrspaul]

I suspect a computer might make a much better job than some humans of reversing into the M&S loading bay some idiot permitted to be built on the corner of The Shambles in York (one of the oldest streets in Europe). But I dread to think what would happen between the A1M and the City center, not least which route the computer would assess as the most suitable.

 

Paul

[MarkC]

I suspect a computer might make a much better job than some humans of reversing into the M&S loading bay some idiot permitted to be built on the corner of The Shambles in York (one of the oldest streets in Europe). But I dread to think what would happen between the A1M and the City center, not least which route the computer would assess as the most suitable.

 

Paul

A computer might also have avoided that HGV getting wedged under Micklegate Bar, a while ago...

[hmrspaul]

A computer might also have avoided that HGV getting wedged under Micklegate Bar, a while ago...

I hope you are right, but I suspect the driver may have been following a computerised map - the straightest/shortest route between the A1M and York City center is via Micklegate bar. At least we don't display the drivers head on the bar anymore.

 

And if no one knows this bar, even Range Rover driving visitors slow down when going through. They enter Yorks finest (drinking) street! A pub/restaurant/cafe for every taste; and very little else.

 

Paul

Ps I have great affection for Micklegate Bar. When I worked my homeward journey took me past the M&S driver struggling to get into the loading bay - I've seen it take nigh on 5 - 10 minutes, with upto 9 reversals and it completely blocks a major road. And then sitting under Micklegate bar and thinking of the Royal heads that have hung above it. Fine place to live! The born here residents don't understand why us incomers are willing to spend so much on buying property here!

 

Paul

Edited August 29, 2017 by hmrspaul

[MarkC]

I hope you are right, but I suspect the driver may have been following a computerised map - the straightest/shortest route between the A1M and York City center is via Micklegate bar. At least we don't display the drivers head on the bar anymore.

 

And if no one knows this bar, even Range Rover driving visitors slow down when going through. They enter Yorks finest (drinking) street! A pub/restaurant/cafe for every taste; and very little else.

 

Paul

Ps I have great affection for Micklegate Bar. When I worked my homeward journey took me past the M&S driver struggling to get into the loading bay - I've seen it take nigh on 5 - 10 minutes, with upto 9 reversals and it completely blocks a major road. And then sitting under Micklegate bar and thinking of the Royal heads that have hung above it. Fine place to live! The born here residents don't understand why us incomers are willing to spend so much on buying property here!

 

Paul

Ah yes, satnag-assisted cockup - whatever happened to looking at, understanding and being guided by road signs such as height restrictions?

*sighs*

 

York is indeed a good place for a night out - and as for heads on pikes, I suspect that there were more 'nobles' than 'royals' - but we digress

 

Mark

[hmrspaul]

Ah yes, satnag-assisted cockup - whatever happened to looking at, understanding and being guided by road signs such as height restrictions?

*sighs*

 

York is indeed a good place for a night out - and as for heads on pikes, I suspect that there were more 'nobles' than 'royals' - but we digress

 

Mark

Micklegate bar is so narrow and low it shouldn't need warning signs! Personally, although I like travelling through it, the Bar could easily be sealed off to road vehicles without much loss for York traffic; most delivery has to be done from the other end of Micklegate anyway.

 

From Wikipedia Richard of York, 3rd Duke of York   was a leading English magnate, a great-grandson of King Edward III through his father, and a great-great-great-grandson of the same king through his mother.

 

York was buried at Pontefract, but his head was put on a pike by the victorious Lancastrian armies and displayed over Micklegate Bar at York, wearing a paper crown. His remains were later moved to Church of St Mary and All Saints, Fotheringhay

 

Within a few weeks of Richard of York's death, his eldest surviving son was acclaimed King Edward IV and finally established the House of York on the throne following a decisive victory over the Lancastrians at the Battle of Towton. After an occasionally tumultuous reign, he died in 1483 and was succeeded by his twelve-year-old son, Edward V, who was himself succeeded after 86 days by his uncle, York's youngest son, Richard III.

 

We digress.

 

Paul

 

Edit a PS I hadn't realised it was a M&S lorry that had done this; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-20001098 With several deliveries a day I would have thought this was one firm whose drivers would be well aware of the York hazards. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2220069/M-S-lorry-gets-stuck-ancient-12th-Century-archway-York.html

 

Paul

Edited August 29, 2017 by hmrspaul