The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

[Talltim]

Don't rate wooden brake blocks. Look what happened to James

[Guy Rixon]

Conversly - as befits Pedantry - I have at least 4 tins of paint from, I assume, the same paint supplier, all labelled the same and all slightly different in colour, these being representations of 'LNWR Coach White'.

 

Recently, I opened an ancient tin of LNWR white and found it was a ghastly, institutional green ... until fully stirred, when it when back to the appropriate colour. Had me flashing back to the austerity-period paint in my school. I guess that it was made exactly as the LNWR's paint, with a bluing agent added to the basic white, but the two pigments settled differently.

 

I wonder if there are other paint mixes that change colour as the ingredients settle.

[Caley Jim]

Don't rate wooden brake blocks. Look what happened to James

Wooden brake blocks and dumb buffers - now that's a proper wagon! Mind you, each wagon should only have one brake block.

 

As to what happened to James, that was partly his own fault as he didn't get these troublesome trucks whipped into shape in the first place. Which brings me back to my earlier post re trucks and wagons.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Wagon tends to be generic - though not so much so as on the continent where it includes passenger-rated vehicles.

 

Looking at the table of Midland wagons by type, from the Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 3037 of 14 March 1895, as reproduced in Essery's Midland Wagons, Vol. 1 Fig. 22:

 

Over half the vehicles are 'goods wagons (high/low side)'; then there are hopper bottom wagons, end door wagons, manure wagons, rail wagons, girder wagons, case wagons, coke wagons, glass wagons, pulley wagons, wagons for large packing cases, sleeper wagons, ballast wagons, implement wagons, match wagons, gunpowder wagons, cattle wagons and  'covered goods wagons', the pre-grouping term for what we'd call vans. 'Vans' are for rather grand traffic: 'meat van', 'fruit van', 'refrigerator van'.

 

Trucks seem to be for heavy items: omnibus trucks, tramcar trucks, timber trucks, boiler trucks, tramcar engine trucks, armour plate trucks.

 

'Truck' as a generic equivalent of 'wagon', as in James' case, seems to be a layman's term, not a railway term.

[Oldddudders]

'Truck' as a generic equivalent of 'wagon', as in James' case, seems to be a layman's term, not a railway term.

 

Or, in North America, the term for what we call a bogie. 

[Compound2632]

Or, in North America, the term for what we call a bogie. 

 

Ah well, that's another language.

[Edwardian]

 

'Truck' as a generic equivalent of 'wagon', as in James' case, seems to be a layman's term, not a railway term.

 

I blame the clergy

[Penlan]

I blame the clergy

Hopefully not 'Teddy' Boston, 'Peter Denny' or 'Brian Arman'       

[Caley Jim]

Ah well, that's another language.

Another example of two countries separated by a common language!

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

Another example of two countries separated by a common language!

 

Jim

 

Somehow my image of a gondola is subverted by the idea of a 100-ton coal car.

[BG John]

Somehow my image of a gondola is subverted by the idea of a 100-ton coal car.

A romantic tour of the Venice canals sitting on top of a load of coal! Not sure the turbo charged James Bond version would be much good for escaping from the baddies!

[brianusa]

Another example of two countries separated by a common language!

 

Jim

 

Soon, if natural progression actually progresses, the two languages will become one much to the chagrin of English English only fraternity.  For some reason train enthusiasts are particularly offended by the possibility; remember the recent train stations  -v- railway stations?  Train stations appears to have won that one!   Most of the same enthusiasts are familiar enough with US terminology to know the difference; sleepers/ties, points/switches, etc, so it should not come as a surprise when such terms are accepted in the main vocabulary.  Go to Starbucks and order a coffee; its not a simple chore any more!.  Soon it will mean referring to boots as trunks and bonnets as hoods and then the transition will be practically complete; lets face it, most lorries are trucks these days.

 

Brian

(who still spells the correct way)

[chrisf]

Soon, if natural progression actually progresses, the two languages will become one much to the chagrin of English English only fraternity.  For some reason train enthusiasts are particularly offended by the possibility; remember the recent train stations  -v- railway stations?  Train stations appears to have won that one!   Most of the same enthusiasts are familiar enough with US terminology to know the difference; sleepers/ties, points/switches, etc, so it should not come as a surprise when such terms are accepted in the main vocabulary.  Go to Starbucks and order a coffee; its not a simple chore any more!.  Soon it will mean referring to boots as trunks and bonnets as hoods and then the transition will be practically complete; lets face it, most lorries are trucks these days.

 

Brian

(who still spells the correct way)

 

 

You give up too easily.

 

Chris, pp The Resistance

[EddieB]

Honestly, call yourselves a bunch of pre-grouping pedants, yet you talk about "wagons" spelled with only one "g"!

 

It was only in the 1900s that the shorter spelling (as used throughout in the USA) overtook the longer form generally, though I do concede that railway usage adapted a little earlier.

[Caley Jim]

..... points/switches........

A signalman's points are a pw engineer's switches.

 

Jim

[MarcD]

If you want a true Gondola Then what about this one. Furness Railway built, Steam driven and still running on Coniston Water up here in the Lake district.

 

None of this continental stuff here and its positively pre-1923.

 

Marc

[Talltim]

Is the new issue out yet? Not in my Smiffs yet

[Compound2632]

Wagon tends to be generic - though not so much so as on the continent where it includes passenger-rated vehicles.

 

Looking at the table of Midland wagons by type, from the Carriage & Wagon Committee minute 3037 of 14 March 1895, as reproduced in Essery's Midland Wagons, Vol. 1 Fig. 22:

 

Over half the vehicles are 'goods wagons (high/low side)'; then there are hopper bottom wagons, end door wagons, manure wagons, rail wagons, girder wagons, case wagons, coke wagons, glass wagons, pulley wagons, wagons for large packing cases, sleeper wagons, ballast wagons, implement wagons, match wagons, gunpowder wagons, cattle wagons and  'covered goods wagons', the pre-grouping term for what we'd call vans. 'Vans' are for rather grand traffic: 'meat van', 'fruit van', 'refrigerator van'.

 

Trucks seem to be for heavy items: omnibus trucks, tramcar trucks, timber trucks, boiler trucks, tramcar engine trucks, armour plate trucks.

 

'Truck' as a generic equivalent of 'wagon', as in James' case, seems to be a layman's term, not a railway term.

 

 

I woke up (some hours ago) with the revelation that you put stuff in a wagon but on a truck. Unfortunately I think this distinction breaks down for rail, girder, case, and implement wagons.

 

Apologies for narcissistically commenting on my own post.

[brianusa]

Living over here and corresponding on a UK based site inhabited mostly by locals, its sometime difficult to remember where I actually am.    All my train interest stems from trainspotting years ago and my toy trains are tinplate and so the same applies to HRCA and other related internet sites so if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.  Or something like that!

 

Brian.

[Compound2632]

We've not really resolved trucks and wagons - probably because it's an insoluble question. But what about wagons and waggons? I think of waggon as archaic - a non-railway term, more likely a road vehicle. But I've noticed some on here using it consistently - is it perhaps a regionalism?

 

If we're going to get into road transport, the word 'lorry' is an example of the paucity of modern vocabulary - a century or more ago our roads were crowded with a dictionary-full of diverse vehicles.

[John_Miles]

Goods trains and freight trains. The Midland changed over sometime early in the 20th Century. Personally I still prefer goods trains but then my wife says I am a fuddy duddy.

[unravelled]

We've not really resolved trucks and wagons - probably because it's an insoluble question. But what about wagons and waggons? I think of waggon as archaic - a non-railway term, more likely a road vehicle. But I've noticed some on here using it consistently - is it perhaps a regionalism?

 

If we're going to get into road transport, the word 'lorry' is an example of the paucity of modern vocabulary - a century or more ago our roads were crowded with a dictionary-full of diverse vehicles.

There is also (motor) lurry , an alternative spelling I learned from my father's Meccano manuals.

 

Dave

[runs as required]

And posh Mancunians (and mebbe Liverpudlian Binns Road Gentlemen too) used to pronounce it lurry - likewise Cuventry.

My English teacher wife who trained at "Cuventry" reckons she remembers this had to do with the original spelling being Cuventry, but o became substituted for u in assembling sometimes rather battered lead type to differentiate from the following v. .

dh

[Penlan]

There is also (motor) lurry , an alternative spelling I learned from my father's Meccano manuals.

I was under the impression a lurry was a type of flat bed, four wheeled, horse drawn cart.

I'm almost certain I've seen it referred as such in some original LNWR documents.

 

Mind you, the Urban Dictionary has a slightly different take on it,

which would probably be enhanced with the use of a flat bed..... 

[Andy Hayter]

LYR Focus No 61 also has an article on horse drawn lurries - flat bed carts (for want of a better modern description).