The Pre-Grouping Pedants Weekly

[Miss Prism]

Specifically (I speculate), the chocolate and tainted white came before the crimson lake era and chocolate and deliberately-not-white came after. I remember one commentator describing the GWR coaches as "a very dark cream, almost primrose" and this would be the later colour. So (pedantically), I suggest that the light colour of the pallette did change.

 

Yes. The Swindon carriage shops started using a non-white colour in mid-1922, presumably on instruction from Collett, for his new coaches. It seems less varnish was used as well. What the actual paint colour was is not known - 'primrose' covers a large range.

[Miss Prism]

Did manufacture of the pigment actually depend on minerals imported from India or were there local substitutes?

 

I don't think UK was short of iron oxide ores, but I guess an occasional boatload of it from India wasn't too expensive.

[F-UnitMad]

Dunno about that, the Soo line was grouped with the DSSA and the central wis., and went on calling itself the Soo line. So are you modelling the pregroup Soo or the post group Soo, and what does the CPR think about it?

I think the word you are looking for is 'mergers' closely followed by 'takeovers'. As they don't use the term 'Grouping', such a thing hasn't happened yet. If it hasn't happened, then it's still Pre Grouping.

 

Well someone did mention 'anarchic' about this thread.!! I'm enjoying it immensely - I never knew Pre Grouping could be such fun!!

Edited September 13, 2017 by F-UnitMad

[Compound2632]

I'm sure only the most pedantic would do other than take it for granted that we are discussing railways in Britain prior to the formation of the 'Big Four' on 1st Jan 1923. Irish railways up roughly the same date (the Great Southern was formed in 1925 - a grouping of sorts) should certainly come within our purview, as their history and practices are closely aligned with those of British railways - they were governed by the same legislation, by and large. The contemporary practice of overseas railways may also be relevant from time to time.

[Argos]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/125709-mrj-looking-back-at-the-early-ones-for-the-first-time/page-4

 

Posts 84, 85 & 86

 

 I knew this would happen, I did warn you, no interview committee and the Riff-Raff will be in............

Edited September 13, 2017 by Argos

[Mad_Dan_Eccles]

A Jones goods may be pre grouping but it certainly isn't French! 

 

But a Castle could be  - L' Etat had several built by North British and a Big Goods is probably as close as you can get 

 

[Northroader]

I'm sure only the most pedantic would do other than take it for granted that we are discussing railways in Britain prior to the formation of the 'Big Four' on 1st Jan 1923. Irish railways up roughly the same date (the Great Southern was formed in 1925 - a grouping of sorts) should certainly come within our purview, as their history and practices are closely aligned with those of British railways - they were governed by the same legislation, by and large. The contemporary practice of overseas railways may also be relevant from time to time.

Aren't we in danger of replacing pedantry with insular bigotry if that's taken as a given?

[Compound2632]

Aren't we in danger of replacing pedantry with insular bigotry if that's taken as a given?

 

A reasonable point. It might be better to re-think the whole nomenclature and define our era as pre-Versailles Treaty.

[woodenhead]

If Grouping was to happen today would it be Pregrexit?

[grahame]

A Jones goods may be pre grouping but it certainly isn't French! 

But a Castle could be

 

Wouldn't it be a Chateau then?

 

G

[Compound2632]

Wouldn't it be a Chateau then?

 

G

 

I don't think l'Etat named its locomotives - I think the plate on the side of the boiler of this one says 'ETAT' and the number.

 

North British loco built fifty - they'd only built 19 for the Highland - the first 10 as Dubs, the last ones after l'Etat's order.

 

Not the only such instance - I think the Belgian Dunalastairs greatly outnumbered the Caledonian version, though many of the Belgian version were built by Belgian firms. To be pedantic, these were the Dunalastair II version, together with a development from it.

 

In both cases I suppose there must have been some sort of licensing arrangement - does anyone know?

[John_Miles]

As Sandy (aka Penlan) says above, I am colour blind but my understanding of paints of this era is that they were somewhat variable in colour and the application of varnish also had an impact. So being too pedantic about colours is not worth the trouble. Also scale has an impact on colour. Precision Paints IIRC alter the colour of their paints so they look right on 4mm models. So there you go, a serious post about colour.

[CKPR]

The French version was of the later HR Castle engines, fifty built for the Etat in 1912. Article in Model Railways for July 1975.

 

Yes, that's the one - IIRC, our Gallic cousins were none too impressed with these engines from NBL.

[Miss Prism]

Precision Paints IIRC alter the colour of their paints so they look right on 4mm models. So there you go, a serious post about colour.

 

Given that their prime market is for big stuff, I seem to remember (from a talk by Precision) that Precision Paints intentionally do not attempt to 'scale' their paints.

[Northroader]

Regime Mac Intosh. 1898-1908."L'augmentation incessant du tonnage des trains de voyageurs et de marchandises, les vitesses de plus en plus elevees exigees des trains express et l'introduction des voitures lourdes a bogies amenerant l'-administration des chemins de fer de l'Etat a envisager la creation de types de locomotives entirement nouveau.

Le besoin de locomotive d'express se faisant cruellement sentir, il fut decide d'adopter un locomotive classified purement anglais, le type "Dunalastair III" a foyer profound, Cree par l'ingenieur Mac Intosh, "Locomotive Super intendant" du Caledonian Railway en Ecosse. Cinq machines de ce type des 4-4-0 "American" a roues de 1.98m. furent commandes de Neilson, Reid and Co a Glasgow et mises en service a la fin de 1898".

Quote from "Nos inoubliables Vapeur" Phil Dambly. It would seem the Railway just went to the manufacturer and said build us some of them. After trials, Belgian industry built 40 copies in 1899, type 17, and 50 more in 1901. It was found that more power was needed for the heaviest trains, also problems with burning Belgian coal briquettes, so type 18 was built, with larger firebox, 140 in 1902-5. Six had superheat , type 18s, and in 1908 a further enlarged type 18bis, appeared with fifteen examples.

Next an engine which the Caley didn't have, a 4-4-2T, but a dead ringer of Mac Intosh practice, type15. Large numbers of these were built for local services. These were followed by type 30 0-6-0 goods engines, followed by type 32, all very Scottish appearance, and 809 were built up to 1914. A copy of the "Oban bogie" 4-6-0, type 35 was also built from 1903. You'll appreciate the Belgian State Railway had a very Scottish appearance pre ww1.

[Compound2632]

Regime Mac Intosh. 1898-1908."L'augmentation incessant du tonnage des trains de voyageurs et de marchandises, les vitesses de plus en plus elevees exigees des trains express et l'introduction des voitures lourdes a bogies amenerant l'-administration des chemins de fer de l'Etat a envisager la creation de types de locomotives entirement nouveau.

Le besoin de locomotive d'express se faisant cruellement sentir, il fut decide d'adopter un locomotive classified purement anglais, le type "Dunalastair III" a foyer profound, Cree par l'ingenieur Mac Intosh, "Locomotive Super intendant" du Caledonian Railway en Ecosse. Cinq machines de ce type des 4-4-0 "American" a roues de 1.98m. furent commandes de Neilson, Reid and Co a Glasgow et mises en service a la fin de 1898".

Quote from "Nos inoubliables Vapeur" Phil Dambly. It would seem the Railway just went to the manufacturer and said build us some of them. After trials, Belgian industry built 40 copies in 1899, type 17, and 50 more in 1901. It was found that more power was needed for the heaviest trains, also problems with burning Belgian coal briquettes, so type 18 was built, with larger firebox, 140 in 1902-5. Six had superheat , type 18s, and in 1908 a further enlarged type 18bis, appeared with fifteen examples.

Next an engine which the Caley didn't have, a 4-4-2T, but a dead ringer of Mac Intosh practice, type15. Large numbers of these were built for local services. These were followed by type 30 0-6-0 goods engines, followed by type 32, all very Scottish appearance, and 809 were built up to 1914. A copy of the "Oban bogie" 4-6-0, type 35 was also built from 1903. You'll appreciate the Belgian State Railway had a very Scottish appearance pre ww1.

 

M. Dambly se trompe. C’etait le Dunalastair II.

 

I'll stand corrected by a Caley expert but I believe that all the CR's Dunalastairs were built at St Rollox, so it's not like the case of the French Castles where NBL had the drawings and patterns to hand, so could presumably supply the engines relatively quickly. McIntosh must surely have had authorisation from the CR directors before handing over a full set of drawings to Neilsons - not that Neilsons didn't know what a Caledonian engine should look like - vide No. 123! (The CR couldn't legally build and sell new engines.)

[Caley Jim]

I'll stand corrected by a Caley expert but I believe that all the CR's Dunalastairs were built at St Rollox, so it's not like the case of the French Castles where NBL had the drawings and patterns to hand, so could presumably supply the engines relatively quickly. McIntosh must surely have had authorisation from the CR directors before handing over a full set of drawings to Neilsons - not that Neilsons didn't know what a Caledonian engine should look like - vide No. 123! (The CR couldn't legally build and sell new engines.)

To quote from 'The Caledonian Dunalastairs' by O.S. Nock p50 et seq :-

 

Extract from Minutes of Meeting of the Traffic Committee.

Glasgow 8th February 1898

Belgian State Railways and "Dunalastair" class of Engine.

Submitted letter from Mr McIntosh with translation from a communication from the Chief Engineer of the Belgian State Railways.

Remit to Board

 

Extract from Minutes of Meeting of the Board of Directors.

Glasgow 8th February 1898

Belgian State Railways and "Dunalastair" class of Engine.

Submitted letter from Mr McIntosh with translation from a communication from the Chief Engineer of the Belgian State Railways.

Remit to Chairman to authorize Mr McIntosh to give the Belgian Government drawings and full particulars for 5 engines of the Dunalastair type and to endeavour to arrange for their being built in Glasgow under the special supervision of a Locomotive Engineer to be selected by Mr McIntosh, who in respect of the very special circumstances is notwithstanding the terms of his engagement with the Company authorized to undertake a general supervision of the construction of the 5 engines.

James C Bunten.

 

It goes on to point out that there were a number of differences in detail between the Scottish and Belgian locos, including the latter being right hand drive.  It also seems that when they were being built (by Neilsons) the CR's foreman painter was sent to Neilsons to 'show you our practice, particularly in regard to the lining'.

 

So, the initial Belgian locos were built with the full co-operation of the Caledonian and under the supervision of J. F. M'Intosh (note, not 'MacIntosh' and this was how he signed himself) and even painted in Caledonian style instead of the usual black lined red of the Belgian Railways.

 

I understand that one of the Belgian locos is preserved there.

 

The 0-6-0's were similar to the 812 class which were essentially a goods version of the Dunalastair and were sometimes referred to as 'Dunalastair Goods'

 

Note that NB Loco was not formed until 1903 by the merger of Neilsons, Dübs and Sharp Stewart.

 

Jim

[Compound2632]

So, the initial Belgian locos were built with the full co-operation of the Caledonian and under the supervision of J. F. M'Intosh (note, not 'MacIntosh' and this was how he signed himself) and even painted in Caledonian style instead of the usual black lined red of the Belgian Railways.

 

I understand that one of the Belgian locos is preserved there.

 

The 0-6-0's were similar to the 812 class which were essentially a goods version of the Dunalastair and were sometimes referred to as 'Dunalastair Goods'

 

Note that NB Loco was not formed until 1903 by the merger of Neilsons, Dübs and Sharp Stewart.

 

Jim

 

Caley expert rises to the bait! - thanks.

 

Caledonian blue - as reproduced in the painting I linked too.

 

I can't find it just now but I've seen a photo of a Belgian bridge featuring a sculpted 'head' of an 812.

 

The first Highland Castles were built when Dubs were Dubs but the French order came after the merger.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

Nice one, Jim. Thanks.

[Caley Jim]

Caley expert rises to the bait! - thanks........

I can't find it just now but I've seen a photo of a Belgian bridge featuring a sculpted 'head' of an 812.

Wouldn't call myself an expert, but I have a fair number of books on CR matters.  I also have access to people who are experts!

 

I've seen that photo too, but, like compound, can't think where and I don't have time to hunt for it just now.

 

Jim

[Krusty]

Indian Red .... RGB reference  205, 92, 92

 

In which colour space? sRGB? A98? ProPhoto? ECI? .................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[Compound2632]

In which colour space? sRGB? A98? ProPhoto? ECI? .................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

To be truly pedantic, surely the only reliable approach is to recreate the original pigment using the period ingredients - this will require a risk assessment and appropriate safety measures - together with base coat (probably red lead), varnish, and frequent polishing with an oily rag/cotton waste. This, together with prolonged exposure to period pollutants, will give you the correct hue. Research is required, therefore, not only into the nature of the paint but the relevant pollutants. A Sheffield-based engine, for example, may be exposed to a different atmosphere to a Liverpool shedded one.

[ian@stenochs]

To quote from 'The Caledonian Dunalastairs' by O.S. Nock p50 et seq :-

 

Extract from Minutes of Meeting of the Traffic Committee.

Glasgow 8th February 1898

Belgian State Railways and "Dunalastair" class of Engine.

Submitted letter from Mr McIntosh with translation from a communication from the Chief Engineer of the Belgian State Railways.

Remit to Board

 

Extract from Minutes of Meeting of the Board of Directors.

Glasgow 8th February 1898

Belgian State Railways and "Dunalastair" class of Engine.

Submitted letter from Mr McIntosh with translation from a communication from the Chief Engineer of the Belgian State Railways.

Remit to Chairman to authorize Mr McIntosh to give the Belgian Government drawings and full particulars for 5 engines of the Dunalastair type and to endeavour to arrange for their being built in Glasgow under the special supervision of a Locomotive Engineer to be selected by Mr McIntosh, who in respect of the very special circumstances is notwithstanding the terms of his engagement with the Company authorized to undertake a general supervision of the construction of the 5 engines.

James C Bunten.

 

It goes on to point out that there were a number of differences in detail between the Scottish and Belgian locos, including the latter being right hand drive.  It also seems that when they were being built (by Neilsons) the CR's foreman painter was sent to Neilsons to 'show you our practice, particularly in regard to the lining'.

 

So, the initial Belgian locos were built with the full co-operation of the Caledonian and under the supervision of J. F. M'Intosh (note, not 'MacIntosh' and this was how he signed himself) and even painted in Caledonian style instead of the usual black lined red of the Belgian Railways.

 

I understand that one of the Belgian locos is preserved there.

 

The 0-6-0's were similar to the 812 class which were essentially a goods version of the Dunalastair and were sometimes referred to as 'Dunalastair Goods'

 

Note that NB Loco was not formed until 1903 by the merger of Neilsons, Dübs and Sharp Stewart.

 

Jim

Not sure if this is the correct Dunalistair version as built for the the Belgians! Model built by a Sou'West man who quite likes the style of some of the Auld Enemies engines!

 

Ian.

[wessy]

To be truly pedantic, surely the only reliable approach is to recreate the original pigment using the period ingredients - this will require a risk assessment and appropriate safety measures - together with base coat (probably red lead), varnish, and frequent polishing with an oily rag/cotton waste. This, together with prolonged exposure to period pollutants, will give you the correct hue. Research is required, therefore, not only into the nature of the paint but the relevant pollutants. A Sheffield-based engine, for example, may be exposed to a different atmosphere to a Liverpool shedded one.

 

As for air pollution and the effect on surfaces, the LNWR found that copper telegraph wires were 'as new' after 30 years' use in areas such as Anglesey, but they had to be replaced due to corrosion after 18 months in the Widnes and St Helens areas.

[tomparryharry]

On Rivet Counters Monthly, I see there's a free 'Pedants Micrometer'. Lovingly made in fag-ash & plastiscene, it accurately measures your pride & joy to the nearest gnats whisker. For a mere £4,295 extra, you can have your very own GWR rivet, in whichever scale you desire.

 

For the hard of hearing, you can purchase a colour chart, and finally determine the correct shade of green, as painted by Fred & his gang, in July, 1925. All this, for just £6-17/6d!*

 

Finally, the most up-to-date, and technically advanced amongst our readers, you can purchase the fully, digitised, version. Just passing the subject over the viewfinder activates the pre-recorded response-"Wrong!!!!"

 

* Not available in all areas. Some shades of black may vary. For best results, we recommend closing the eyes, in a dark room. If you continue to smell a buzzing noise, stop pressing the buzzer. The use of rose-tinted spectacles should only be worn in the presence of a fully qualified psychiatrist.

 

 

Fred the Office Boy.