Rugd1022 Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Hopefully this should be an easy one for the Pullman officianados amongst us... can anyone please identify the five Pullman vehicles in this classic Michael Mensing shot taken at Solihull in 1962, also the two Mk1s, are they FOs...? And one final question, which Hornby 4mm Pullmans could be used to replicate this wonderful period piece..? Thanks in anticipation... 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) From the Railway Observer, December 1961: "The spare steam set kept at Old Oak to cover breakdowns and maintenance of the diesels is formed of Cars 27, 249, 169, 54, Cecilia and standard FOs W3093/4, all in Pullman umber and cream livery." I believe that it acquired the nickname "Wells Fargo". All you need now is for a real Pullman expert to answer the question about whether Hornby Pullmans can be used to replicate the formation. Chris Edited September 15, 2017 by chrisf 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted September 15, 2017 Author Share Posted September 15, 2017 Thanks Chris, much appreciated Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted September 15, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2017 At the time of the Knowle & Dorridge collision the report said the train comprised 9 Pullman cars built in 1923. Unfortunately they are not listed individually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted September 15, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2017 That photo shows a corking sort of train for a certain sort of modeller. One that the exhibition know-alls would love debunking. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted September 15, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 15, 2017 (edited) From the Railway Observer, December 1961: "The spare steam set kept at Old Oak to cover breakdowns and maintenance of the diesels is formed of Cars 27, 249, 169, 54, Cecilia and standard FOs W3093/4, all in Pullman umber and cream livery." I believe that it acquired the nickname "Wells Fargo". All you need now is for a real Pullman expert to answer the question about whether Hornby Pullmans can be used to replicate the formation. Chris There's a list of Pullman Cars on this site. You may get an dodgy message depending on what anti-virus you are using. MacAffee doesn't like it but others usually let it through. http://www.britishrailways.info/pullman_cars.htm. It notes cars allocated to the spare BP sets. As far as I can see the set mentioned by Chris included two 1923 Brakes which went into LNER stock, 27 (numbered 80 until 1928) and 54. Others were 169 on SR from 1924 (was Viking until 1947), 249 on SR from 1925 (was Pearl until 1947) and Cecilia on SR from 1927. Eric Edited September 15, 2017 by TheSignalEngineer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 I ran the gauntlet of McAfee and visited the site recommended by The Signal Engineer. A chord was struck, in that as I scrolled down I found references to the cars [re]named after rivers to make a second set, which I had forgotten when diving for the Railway Observers. Perhaps I should carry on rummaging to learn more. It must have been a bad day to have both spares in service. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted September 15, 2017 Share Posted September 15, 2017 Wonder which passengers preferred? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Another lovely shot of the set in 1963. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrag2439.htm 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Another lovely shot of the set in 1963. http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrag2439.htm Ah - the winter of '62/'63 ..... I remember it well ! When choosing your Hornby Pullmans don't forget that all 'matchboarded' vehicles would have been flush plated long before this time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Notice, of course, that this is not the same set which started this thread. There are no Mk 1 FOs for a start. Chris 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Going back to the OP's question, it looks like there is some flexibility in recreating the Wells Fargo set. Incidentally, does anyone know where that name arose? Did the set ever get used elsewhere when it was not required on the Birmingham Pullman? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I think that the name relates to the number of bankers traveling. Wells Fargo is an American institution. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I think that the name relates to the number of bankers traveling. Wells Fargo is an American institution. Did somebody say something about cowboys ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted September 21, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 21, 2018 I'll have a look in the Pullman book by Julian Morel tomorrow, as I'm sure he lists the Wells Fargo set car names/numbers... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 21, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 21, 2018 Going back to the OP's question, it looks like there is some flexibility in recreating the Wells Fargo set. Incidentally, does anyone know where that name arose? Did the set ever get used elsewhere when it was not required on the Birmingham Pullman? I understand the crews came up with it because it was rather an old fashioned train, a bit like something out of the wild west, compared with the Blue Pullmans. The term was definitely in everyday use among WR staff. I know the set was also used to Bristol but I don't know if it was used on the South Wales Pullman although it probably was - I certainly saw it in use on the GWML. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 Bristol Pullman: D847_1B25_west-of-ThingleyJct_1964 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr From 1964, the WR also had some of the 1960 Cars displaced from the East Coast by the withdrawal of 'The Queen of Scots'. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 I understand the crews came up with it because it was rather an old fashioned train, a bit like something out of the wild west, compared with the Blue Pullmans. The term was definitely in everyday use among WR staff. I know the set was also used to Bristol but I don't know if it was used on the South Wales Pullman although it probably was - I certainly saw it in use on the GWML. South Wales Pullman at Newport in July 1961. Not sure if that is the Wells Fargo set. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 30851 Posted September 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2018 I understand the crews came up with it because it was rather an old fashioned train, a bit like something out of the wild west, compared with the Blue Pullmans. The term was definitely in everyday use among WR staff. I know the set was also used to Bristol but I don't know if it was used on the South Wales Pullman although it probably was - I certainly saw it in use on the GWML. I believe the name comes from the TV show "Tales of Wells Fargo" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tales_of_Wells_Fargo which was imported by the BBC and shown from 1957. The show featured Stagecoaches a lot - something Wells Fargo (the bank) were famous for. Rob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted September 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2018 From Pullman by Julian Morel: There were two Wells Fargo sets. The requirements for the trains were: car A seats 30 car B seats 30 (with kitchen) car C seats 42 car D seats 42 (with Kitchen) car E seats 42 car F seats 30 (with Kitchen) car G seats 30 Giving a total of 246 seats. They were formed of second class cars, refurbished, renovated and given names, they compared badly to the Blue Pullmans and brough many passenger complaints. The cars that were modified and given running names for the standby trains were: Pullman schedule, new name, former running number type 188 Avon 66 Parlour 1926 226 Ceteia 73 Parlour 1928 210 Hebe 105 Kitchen 1927 227 Melandra 74 Parlour 1928 215 Severn 60 Kitchen 1928 211 Thalia 106 Kitchen 1927 216 Thames 61 Kitchen 1928 212 Thetis 107 Kitchen 1927 193 Wye 35 Parlour 1926 (the cars were planned to be interchangeable between the LM and W regions.) Cars 105, 106 and 107 (originally Marcelle, Sybil and Kathleen) were converted in 1941 from 1st to 3rds, and were originally built in 1927. Hope this helps! Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted September 22, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 22, 2018 The South Wales Pullman was running before the blue diesel sets were introduced, from 1958 IIRC (proviso; I don't always), and presumably used some of this stock. A Castle job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 The South Wales Pullman was running before the blue diesel sets were introduced, from 1958 IIRC (proviso; I don't always), and presumably used some of this stock. A Castle job. 'The Red Dragon..' has a photo of the last steam-hauled 'South Wales Pullman', on 8th September 1961. Vehicles were:- Car 54; Aurelia; Zena; Cecilia; Diamond; Car 35; Car 171: and Car 55. Loco was 4090, Dorchester Castle. Nominally a Neath engine, as Landore had closed, and was under reconstruction.as a diesel depot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted September 22, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 22, 2018 The South Wales Pullman was running before the blue diesel sets were introduced, from 1958 IIRC (proviso; I don't always), and presumably used some of this stock. A Castle job. According to Morel, the South Wales Pullman started 27th June 1955, departing Padd at 09.55, arr Swansea 1400, calling Newport, Cardiff, Port Talbort and Neath. Return was 1635 arriving Padd at 2045. Car Diamond accommodated the Daffodil Bar, which had an attractive lady attendant in Pullman uniform..... Andy G 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forester Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 And one final question, which Hornby 4mm Pullmans could be used to replicate this wonderful period piece..? As always with early wooden-bodied Pullmans which were constantly rebuilt, it depends how accurate you want to be. .Car 27: Available as Hornby R4430. 8-wheel. Correct conversion to Brake. Correct flush sides & late crest for 1960s. But - modelled with incorrect number of windows. Car 249: Not available. 8 wheel 30-seat third class kitchen, fairly similar in layout to Car 169 (below) which you might get away with renumbering. Car 169: Available from Hornby Bournemouth Belle Set R2300. 8-wheel. Correct flush sides & late crest. Good model (Hornby R4424 version has older matchboard sides.) Cecilia: Available from Hornby Golden Arrow Set R2369. 8-wheel. Correct layout. But - incorrect matchboard sides, early crest and Arrows glued to sides. Car 54: Available as Hornby R4166A. 8-wheel. Correct conversion to Brake. Correct flush sides and late crest for 1960s. But - incorrect number of windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted September 24, 2018 Share Posted September 24, 2018 South Wales Pullman at Newport in July 1961. Not sure if that is the Wells Fargo set. The fourth Car is Diamond/Daffodil - so that's not the Wells Fargo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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