Class A4 4-6-2 in O Gauge from Hatton's

[Bucoops]

7 minutes ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Looking at Hattons tonight and all the cut price A4’s have sold out. All they have now are damaged second hand ones for sale.

 

At more than they were selling the new ones for which is amusing.

[Bucoops]

I also wonder if they are doing the same as with the 66s - let them "sell out" then put a few more on, so it doesn't look like they've got tons of them.

[Art Dent]

1 hour ago, Adrian Stevenson said:

Looking at Hattons tonight and all the cut price A4’s have sold out. All they have now are damaged second hand ones for sale.

 

Yes, they'd sold out of the £299/£329 new A4s over a week/10 days ago.

 

I looked in case my replacement A4 had problems running and had to itself be replaced.

 

Turns out (apart from throwing a shoe - see my earlier post today) I seem to have got a good one (okay - so the windscreen on the fireman's side was stuck on with only a bit of spit and hope and the one of the tender doors [with two ridiculosly small 'nubs' to attach it to the tender] also fell off) as it ran straight out of the box with no coupling rod/crank pin issues that I've heard of.  Plus this one had a fall plate and a dummy coal load - but was missing the valance pipe and running-board support brackets.  Mind you, it did have the shiny tread plates over the cylinders and these were actually stuck on this time!  Mind you, I'm not convinced that these were shiny after the initial locos for the Jubilee Trains [Silver Link, Quicksilver, Silver King and Silver Fox].  Most pics I have been able to find seem to indicate that these were black (or very grubby) and not polished stainless steel.

 

Makes you wonder who (if anyone) is employed in Heljan's QC Department (if indeed they even have one)!

 

@Bucoops

 

I emailed Slaters and they came straight back saying the same as you - secured with a countersunk screw.  £18.50 per axle - so £37 to fix a problem with a brand-new loco that has run for less than 30 mins total.

 

Just need to replace the plastic washer that got lost when Aussie went off the rails.  Any ideas?

 

Art

 

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by Art Dent

[Hal Nail]

10 hours ago, Art Dent said:

Makes you wonder who (if anyone) is employed in Heljan's QC Department (if indeed they even have one)!

This was a commission so we don't know if any QC was specified and paid for by Hattons.

 

I'm sure both parties will have taken something away from this. I suspect the A3, A4 and coaches must have lost money and even if Heljan delivered exactly to the agreed spec, its hardly been good for their reputation.

 

 

[Art Dent]

9 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

This was a commission so we don't know if any QC was specified and paid for by Hattons.

 

I'm sure both parties will have taken something away from this. I suspect the A3, A4 and coaches must have lost money and even if Heljan delivered exactly to the agreed spec, its hardly been good for their reputation.

 

 

 

Who in their right mind would risk their reputation by commissioning something to be made by another firm and NOT put any QC in place?

 

Or who in their right mind would accept a commission from another company and risk their reputation by NOT QC-ing their product before dispatch?

 

Beggars belief that either Hattons or Heljan would do that (but seemingly one or both parties have!)

 

Hattons have replied saying that they are out of stock of the loco and don't have any spares and have offered a return/full refund as the loco is within warranty. 

 

Art

[Art Dent]

21 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I also wonder if they are doing the same as with the 66s - let them "sell out" then put a few more on, so it doesn't look like they've got tons of them.

 

I presume you are meaning the Hattons Originals OO-Gauge 66's?  There are no new Hattons Originals 66's on the site at the moment.

 

There are lots of 'used' locos with one bogie and cardan shaft as separate items to the main loco (i.e. detached!) plus other loose parts!

 

What do Heljan use for glue - spit & hope??

 

Art

Edited December 13, 2022 by Art Dent

[Bucoops]

2 hours ago, Art Dent said:

 

I presume you are meaning the Hattons Originals OO-Gauge 66's?  There are no new Hattons Originals 66's on the site at the moment.

 

There are lots of 'used' locos with one bogie and cardan shaft as separate items to the main loco (i.e. detached!) plus other loose parts!

 

What do Heljan use for glue - spit & hope??

 

Art

 

Yes - they kept running out of new ones yet they then restocked a few days later.

 

[djparkins]

I can't quite see what all the fuss is about. Those who wanted to take the plunge have gotten some cut price top link locos. Any serious modeller is going to have to virtually strip them down anyway. Same with most RTR stuff. I've gotten myself eight pacifics at an average price of approx. £190 each. Many are in bits for sure, but I'd have soon made them that way anyway - as all would require replacement of several key parts in metal to have any hope of running reliably over time. But even if I spend another £200 on each loco, it is a lot lot cheaper than buying a kit for for an A3 or A4 at around £1100 each with wheels and motors. It is the same with Hattons LNER coaches. Got some for £90.00! Deal.

[Bucoops]

2 minutes ago, djparkins said:

I can't quite see what all the fuss is about. Those who wanted to take the plunge have gotten some cut price top link locos. Any serious modeller is going to have to virtually strip them down anyway. Same with most RTR stuff. I've gotten myself eight pacifics at an average price of approx. £190 each. Many are in bits for sure, but I'd have soon made them that way anyway - as all would require replacement of several key parts in metal to have any hope of running reliably over time. But even if I spend another £200 on each loco, it is a lot lot cheaper than buying a kit for for an A3 or A4 at around £1100 each with wheels and motors. It is the same with Hattons LNER coaches. Got some for £90.00! Deal.

 

That is kind of what I am hoping for when I bought what looks to be the last unanamed LNER blue A4.... And a used coach to see what they look like. Just need them to deliver the things now.

[Hal Nail]

12 hours ago, djparkins said:

I can't quite see what all the fuss is about...

 

...any serious modeller is going to have to virtually strip them down anyway. Same with most RTR stuff. 

 

My opinion, (and of course I may just be subconsciously filtering the facts!), is that r-t-r has seen a lot of people move up from 4mm. There is less/no need for compensation/springing etc there and certainly you can easily cope without ever building a kit, let alone scratch building.

 

If you spend any time on the 4mm threads there are demands for all sorts of things from working cab doors to drivers that pop up according to direction of travel, lots of complaints about the cost of existing products and virtually no mention whatsoever of anything to do with engineering (other than occassional mazak rot or split gears).

 

In other words a lot of people are coming to 7mm with different expectations (based on a scaled up version of what they are used to). Whether those prove to be realistic or not is basically what this thread is about.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Hal Nail

[djparkins]

54 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

My opinion, (and of course I may just be subconsciously filtering the facts!), is that r-t-r has seen a lot of people move up from 4mm. There is less/no need for compensation/springing etc there and certainly you can easily cope without ever building a kit, let alone scratch building.

 

If you spend any time on the 4mm threads there are demands for all sorts of things from working cab doors to drivers that pop up according to direction of travel, lots of complaints about the cost of existing products and virtually no mention whatsoever of anything to do with engineering (other than occassional mazak rot or split gears).

 

In other words a lot of people are coming to 7mm with different expectations (based on a scaled up version of what they are used to). Whether those prove to be realistic or not is basically what this thread is about.

 

That is undoubtedly very true but my point is quite different. I was simply saying that serious modellers had a way of getting some basic locos and coaches on the cheap and rebuilding areas of them, as I have. That was all I was trying to say. There are still some coaches to be had but the locos now appear to be going fast, as I suspect others have been doing the same as me. There are still some of those modellers out there as my own sales and those of some other kit manufacturers will attest - even if somewhat depleted. Why do you think with decades if experience behind me, I have been buying up ranges? Would it be because there is no potential left in them? I think not. They just need aspects of them pulling into the 21st century.

[Hal Nail]

51 minutes ago, djparkins said:

There are still some of those modellers out there as my own sales and those of some other kit manufacturers will attest

I think we are in total agreement. I buy some r-t-r to see what i can do with it alongside my kits.

 

I was merely pointing out why there is some "fuss".

 

Ps 7mm Scammel please!

[Bucoops]

56 minutes ago, djparkins said:

Why do you think with decades if experience behind me, I have been buying up ranges? Would it be because there is no potential left in them? I think not. They just need aspects of them pulling into the 21st century.

 

And very grateful we are too! Although even with your current bargain prices, my bank are somewhat concerned!

[djparkins]

44 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Ps 7mm Scammel please!

 

Four types coming out next year.

[Bucoops]

Ok - so I picked up what turns out to possibly be the last new A4. It's an LNER Blue without name or number.

 

It arrived today along with a coach.

 

If i had paid full price I would have been fuming. 1 loose screw, both treadplates loose, both front guard irons only held on by the drain cock pipes. That's just the loco.

 

The tender: Loose side plate with the axleboxes, broken axle keeper plate, broken dragbeam mount.

 

The keeper plate is wholly down to simply crap design - the two bolts that hold the tender to the MDF "plinth" attach to the keeper plate - which then attaches to the tender chassis by 4 small screws. If the packaging held the tender down sufficiently it *might* have more chance of surviving. But there's no way that keeper plate should have been expected to take the load it is expected to.

 

Equally, the strength of the drawbar pin is pathetically undersized. Small wonder that broke off.

 

But, I didn't pay full price, a lot less. And for the forseeable it's intended to be for display. So I shall look at the best way of fixing it.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Bucoops

[Bucoops]

On 12/12/2022 at 20:49, Art Dent said:

 

 

@Bucoops

 

I emailed Slaters and they came straight back saying the same as you - secured with a countersunk screw.  £18.50 per axle - so £37 to fix a problem with a brand-new loco that has run for less than 30 mins total.

 

Just need to replace the plastic washer that got lost when Aussie went off the rails.  Any ideas?

 

Art

 

 

 

I've not looked closely at the loco yet but the tender axles are only 2.5mm (and don't run in bearings...). Hopefully the loco follows normal practice a bit closer.

[Bucoops]

So it looks like the tender was also poorly assembled - the pickups for the middle two axles instead of being against the inside face of the wheel had been mashed into the footplate underside. I don't think it was due to the keeper plate being ripped off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by Bucoops
Add photos

[Art Dent]

@Bucoops Those pictures of the tender keeper plate look horrendous as does the copious amounts of glue used to fix the tread plates (which doesn't seem to have had the desired effect!)

 

If you look back to my pictures posted on 3rd Nov of my original A4, you'll see the merest hint of glue (but no treadplates).  However, even the huge amount of glue applied to your loco seems tohave had no effect!

 

Looking at your 4th pic, I presume the glue marks are for the tender side plate?

 

I'd get back to Hattons and ask for a partial refund - given that they don't have any more in stock to replace yours with.

 

I asked for replacement wheels - they hadn't any spares - so asked for a partial refund so that I can purchase a replacement wheel/axle from Slaters.  They were kind enough to offer a partial refund, which I accepted.

 

Now to go and buy some wheels!

 

Art

 

[Bucoops]

Yup, glue everywhere!

 

I think I may try that - wasn't sure if they would as it was already reduced so much.

 

I just spotted from the picture that there's a chunk of one of the tender axle "slots" missing too. I'm not going to call them bearings!

[kernowtim]

I had an A3 on order when first announced, then cancelled when the first issues were reported, very nearly bought a BR green A4 at £299 but couldn't justify the expense at the time and when I could only the unnumbered LNER ones were left so hesitated and (possibly luckily) missed out. 

I did purchase a used bassett lowke A3 which has no missing or damaged parts, haven't had an opportunity to see what it can pull though! 

Did notice There is a set of driving wheels currently on ebay (no connection) 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155307923180

Edited December 14, 2022 by kernowtim

[Bucoops]

It may have already been covered up thread but the evidence is it's been built down to a price. The tender body is held on with two tiny screws. One bites in to plastic which isn't ideal - but the other one is a total fudge - looks almost done to fix a loose tank after it left the factory!

 

.

[Bucoops]

On 14/12/2022 at 20:17, Art Dent said:

@Bucoops Those pictures of the tender keeper plate look horrendous as does the copious amounts of glue used to fix the tread plates (which doesn't seem to have had the desired effect!)

 

If you look back to my pictures posted on 3rd Nov of my original A4, you'll see the merest hint of glue (but no treadplates).  However, even the huge amount of glue applied to your loco seems tohave had no effect!

 

Looking at your 4th pic, I presume the glue marks are for the tender side plate?

 

I'd get back to Hattons and ask for a partial refund - given that they don't have any more in stock to replace yours with.

 

I asked for replacement wheels - they hadn't any spares - so asked for a partial refund so that I can purchase a replacement wheel/axle from Slaters.  They were kind enough to offer a partial refund, which I accepted.

 

Now to go and buy some wheels!

 

Art

 

 

Hopefully not too late but there are some slaters driving and tender wheels on ebay - 

 

I don't know the seller, but they are less than retail price, quidco are doing a £2.50 bonus (if you're quick) and ebay are doing 10x nectar points on one purchase today.

 

I did notice (probably already mentioned in this thread somewhere) that the crankpin is in the wrong place on the Hattons wheels - inline with a spoke instead of between.

Edited January 17, 2023 by Bucoops
link removed - NOT Slaters.

[Art Dent]

Thank you @Bucoops

 

I orderd two sets of wheels on Friday, but thank you for thinking of me!

 

Also ordered a thin strip of brass to fix behind the tender doors - so that (a) they may be re-positioned more easily and (b) aren't held on by the two tiny 'nubs', spit and a prayer!

 

Just need to figure out exactly what shade of green to paint the brass - I may just go for matt black.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Art

Edited December 19, 2022 by Art Dent
Splelling mistak!

[Bucoops]

Ok, been tinkering with the tender in between other things, and it's now on its wheels for the first time since whatever caused the keeper plate to break. The awkward rear body mounting screw has glue drying so I can't complete the assembly just yet.

 

 

 

So, it has an Ellis Clark drophead buckeye, and I also found an OO markits drawbar coupling. I'm *hoping* I can get it to fit the loco side as well, not tried yet!

 

To get it onto its wheels, I went perhaps a bit OTT. A piece of 1.2mm brass with 3/16" O/D tube soldered into filed location points. Then OO gauge 2mm bearings soldered into the ends of the tubes and opened out to suit. Then something a bit like how they mend broken bones to hold it together!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Does anyone with an intact one find that the pickups cause an awful lot of drag? I've left them standard at the moment but might have to re-visit.

 

 

[Bucoops]

Ok, tender is back in its box. I deliberately left the brake cross beam from the rear most brake hangers in case I have to take the tender top off again as it's rather vulnerable.

 

 

This is the other bit of the coupling thingy:

 

 

I made a threaded sleeve to extend it to match the original:

 

 

 

I'm also ignoring the gap between the tank and the chassis - it is after all a sub-£300 model, there's only so much before it would be better to buy a DJH or Finney7 kit!

Edited January 8, 2023 by Bucoops
add coupling