Major risk to buyers & sellers on ebay beware !

[adb968008]

http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/rfe-spam-non-ebay-sale.html

 

Ebay have made some changes to their terms relating to selling and communication of items outside of ebay.

 

Sellers are also liable for final value fees if they offer or reference their contact information, or ask for a buyer’s contact information, in the context of buying or selling outside of eBay, even if the item does not sell.

I'm not sure how enforceable this is, and I suspect a challenge for anti-competition laws may result from this, but as of today ebay are saying by agreeing to using their site for sales:

 

 

1. Do not put promotional material in the packaging when you send the item..

 

by using ebay your agreeing that you will not promote the sale of any item not listed on ebay to any customer who buys from you on ebay.

In your listing page or in communications with another eBay member you can't refer to or promote your personal website (including links to home page web addresses that promote websites outside of eBay), sales outside of eBay, or other businesses.

2. By using ebay you need to be very careful not to sell any item listed on ebay, to any person off ebay, whom may be a customer of ebay. (In other words if you accidentally sell an item at a show, to someone who has an ebay account, and then delist the sale from ebay, you may find yourself in a policy violation.

(I personally don't see how this is enforceable) but this is a big vulnerability to sellers, if you have a buyer at a show, whom may have seen that item online, and sell the item, delist it, they could go to ebay and report you !

 

To me this sounds like restraint of trade, as the only way you can be certain is to exclusively list the item on ebay and nowhere else... bit tricky if you have more than 1 of the item.

Canceling a listing to sell to a buyer who found the item on eBay

Finally it goes on about not publishing any contact information on your listings (Now here I see an issue as most business sellers contact information is visible in their listings !!!)

 

They are trying to protect their IP (customer base) and their revenue (by people cancelling a sale and selling it offline), but they are saying they will charge introduction fees, and persue costs for for enforcement (i.e. They are going to have revenue protection staff trying to catch people out).

 

 

How draconian is it...

 

I buy from all the shops on ebay, I also know the shops websites. If I find an item I want on ebay but it's cheaper in the shop..hey ho ebay policy violation...introduction fees, enforcement fees etc etc...

 

As it stands any trader needs to weigh up the risk of selling on ebay, versus the value of their business of ebay, but by having both your in conflict with ebay.

 

Ebay defines anything sold outside of ebay as:

HideHow to tell if you're buying or selling on eBay

The best way to tell if you're actually transacting on eBay is:

Open a new browser and type www.ebay.com.

Click My eBay at the top of the page and sign in.

Check to see that the listing you've bid on, bought, or sold appears in the Purchase History or Sell sections.

If your transaction doesn't show up in My eBay, then you didn't buy or sell the item on eBay.

For a seller, who sells offline

 

In draconian, in short, your contract to sell an item is pretty much a life time commitment to sell that item exclusively on ebay and nowhere else, unless you can 100% prove anything you sell outside, that is also offered for sale on ebay, is to a person who does not use ebay and is willing to sign to that effect.

 

For a buyer,

 

Well anything that at all, listing, email, parcel contents with anything more than a return address and an invoice should be reported... it would seem even email addresses are banned by ebay as otherwise your exposed to enforcement fees etc by entrapment.

 

As I said, I can't see they will get away with this, but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Edited September 22, 2017 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

A lot of retailers have ebay stores. How will ebay enforce it on them?

I have had supplies of electrical and electronic bits from someone I first found on eBay. I get a monthly email from him, he now sells direct and also supplies model shops wholesale. Will he still want to bother with eBay I wonder?

[Kelly]

eBay has become very much Seller Beware rather than Buyer Beware due to their methods of dealing with returns (you cannot effectively deny returns as eBay will *force* a return and refund the buyer, and then chase you for the money and threaten to negatively affect your credit scoring etc (a friend has had this with a camera he sold recently).

[adb968008]

eBay has become very much Seller Beware rather than Buyer Beware due to their methods of dealing with returns (you cannot effectively deny returns as eBay will *force* a return and refund the buyer, and then chase you for the money and threaten to negatively affect your credit scoring etc (a friend has had this with a camera he sold recently).

Yes but ebay is saying they will pursue the buyer also... (Again I can't believe ebay can legally enforce restraint of a consumers choice of platform to do business).

 

I understand what they are trying to do.. stop people cutting ebay out of a deal procured using their site, but the wording is open to such interpretation that it goes go way beyond that into restricting trade of items not sold (but merely just listed) on their site that could be sold offline to people who use ebay.

 

heres an example..

I find a class 47 on ebay that is sold by a well know model retailer, who's username is easily recognised.

I goto that retailers website and buy it from the retailer directly.

The retailer takes the item offline as they sold it.

 

Ebay can claim fees from the retailer for my circumventing ebay's Website to conclude a sale, as I used ebay to find the item.

They can also go after me for their costs in proving that in my search history, I looked for that item on ebay, but bought it direct, as the listing allowed me to identify the customer and I was able to identify them. Ebay lost out because I found a cheaper route to the same item from the same ebay seller using eBay's website.

 

(They would probably need to establish a pattern from my shopping habits.. they could have a computer program analyse my ebay browsing habits, and combine that with other website tracking tools, or even collaboration on browsing history from my ISP for example, and if I make a habit of looking for an item on ebay, but then not buying it but visiting another site, they could start to become suspicious for example). All this can be fully automated today and such software is readily available and widely used already.

 

All it does is track me and every other joe, and flags up anomaly and automatically dish out warnings to the lowest level offenders then send everything else to low level guys out in the 3rd world to sift through this stuff, deal with, and flag up the ones of interest for management attention and so on.

 

heres another example..

I get the 47 in the mail.

In the box is an invoice for the 47, but also lists Retailer's website on the invoice.

Retailer can be chased by ebay for using eBay's customers who bought goods on ebay to advance the business away from their site.

 

Ebay could do this by ghost buying the item themselves, presumably on the back of suspicions, i.e. the seller constantly removing items from sale, or a report by a user.

 

or another scenario..

 

I have a 47 on ebay.

I sell it to john doe in the shop, who says he saw it online and decided to come look at your shop.

I remove the item from ebay

 

Turns out JohnDoe works for ebay undercover team, or maybe Jon doe just has a grudge against you.

ebay claims I have sold the item to JohnDoe as a result of JohnDoe finding the item on ebay and visiting the shop to buy it, claims the final valuation fee, and all the enforcement fees associated with it. They will could, if it's worthwhile to them, also try to claim everything you've ever taken offline of ebay without a sale too is as a result of this, and you'll need to prove otherwise..

Edited September 22, 2017 by adb968008

[forest2807]

Are there really enough hours in the day for ebay to actually go to all that trouble with the millions of sellers out there? Beyond a few random checks or investigations of suspicious transactions I suspect this is simply a tightening of the wording of their policy rather than a 'we're coming to get you' warning.

[adb968008]

Are there really enough hours in the day for ebay to actually go to all that trouble with the millions of sellers out there? Beyond a few random checks or investigations of suspicious transactions I suspect this is simply a tightening of the wording of their policy rather than a 'we're coming to get you' warning.

They only need one or two admins based in the Philippines or such like, to scan millions of auctions worldwide.

Everything is software algorithms, that flag up inconsistencies.

 

They Read it, then either bin it or escalate it to level 2, 3 etc.

The earlier levels may just be automated warnings, emails, or even personalised responses higher up the chain it always ends in legal at the top.

 

I'm sure they will have dedicated UK investigative resources, even if they are contractors, there business model is at risk if they don't do some level of enforcement.

 

I know one company that scans every card scan, email, text message, phone photo, phone record, USB, cd,DVD, wifi connection, Bluetooth and rj45 connection you name it, for every employee in the company daily, over 100k employees and cross references this against various parameters for patterns (date, subject key words, expense reports, travel records etc).

 

US corps can be real paranoid.

Here is what got Uber banned in London...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyball

They combined Uber, with credit cards, Banks, Facebook, Google and even the local mobile phone shop all via APIs to do this in milliseconds.

 

In 2017 it's naive to think that opening just a handful of websites cannot and will not be mined, analysed and shared by hundreds of companies worldwide all accessing, compiling and sharing data about you in all manner of complex ways to learn about every aspect of your life, mostly for financial gain.

 

A really simple example.. go online search "boilers" and see how unrelated many websites you visit suddenly start sharing ads about boilers, plumbers, gas heating etc, not just on your laptop, but it'll start showing on your phone and iPad tooo.. that'll be Google Adsense at work, linking all your ip's mac, addresses, devices to you as a user and showing you content as you move around, and collecting more detail on each site you visit.

 

Certainly don't type in Escort and Model without Ford and OO gauge, your misses might start seeing things she might not want to expect ! They might also start showing up on your phone if your walking down a certain street !

 

EBay's own forums are filling with people caught by this, even before this policy change.

https://community.ebay.co.uk/t5/Seller-Central/Ebay-quot-warning-quot-message-re-selling-outside-ebay/td-p/5316221

Edited September 23, 2017 by adb968008

[andyman7]

I'm afraid a lot of the stuff posted here is silly scaremongering, they are not sending out teams of people to check on market stalls and shops of businesses registered on ebay. Basically it's contract law and ebay are rephrasing their Ts and Cs so that they can protect their business but they won't be able to enforce reasonable trade made outside the platform.

 

If you don't like the terms, don't sell with them - simples

[jjb1970]

There does seem to be an inherent contradiction between EBay's transformation into primarily an E-commerce platform for business where many of the sellers are very obviously identifiable with their non-EBay business operations (by such ruses as using the same name as their shop) and trying to prevent people being introduced to the non-EBay activities of these shops.

[Norm81]

I'm afraid a lot of the stuff posted here is silly scaremongering, they are not sending out teams of people to check on market stalls and shops of businesses registered on ebay. Basically it's contract law and ebay are rephrasing their Ts and Cs so that they can protect their business but they won't be able to enforce reasonable trade made outside the platform.

 

If you don't like the terms, don't sell with them - simples

I agree, I would expect if the item listing expired it's time and went unsold, then you sold the item off-ebay a week later they couldn't do anything about it.

 

It's fair enough for them to stop people dealing off-ebay for active listings, but I don't think they could act on non-active listings.

[Crosland]

heres an example..

I find a class 47 on ebay that is sold by a well know model retailer, who's username is easily recognised.

I goto that retailers website and buy it from the retailer directly.

The retailer takes the item offline as they sold it.

 

Ebay can claim fees from the retailer for my circumventing ebay's Website to conclude a sale, as I used ebay to find the item.

 

 

That's how house sales with an estate agent working as "sole agency" work. Sell privately to someone they introduced, who saw their advertising or who saw the for sale board and you are liable to pay their fees. It's perfectly legal if you sign up to it. Proving anything is another matter.

 

I agree with other that you are overthinking this

[micklner]

Who cares ?? Ebay can go and swing , totally unenforceable sabre rattling nonsense. 

[Ian J.]

I think it's likely ebay are after persistent off-site 'offenders' with these kinds of tightening of their conditions. I don't doubt there will probably be some case in the unfair contract terms act(s) that will undermine some of the changes. Also, if they aren't prepared to properly enforce the conditions and only apply it to significant 'offenders' then it could probably be proven that they are inconsistent in their application of their conditions which would weaken their case if they tried to enforce via civil action.

 

But I agree it is a bit much to try and stop any seller (or buyer) making connections away from the ebay system by restricting what contact information any involved party to a transaction can share.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Ian J.

[ejstubbs]

That's how house sales with an estate agent working as "sole agency" work.

 

I don't think that eBay explicitly state that they act in a sole agency capacity, do they?  Their Ts & Cs may imply it but I suspect that they'd be in a dodgy position under unfair contract terms regulations if they tried to rely on that.

 

For example, AFAIK there's nothing in eBay's rules that says you can't advertise an item on other selling platforms such as Gumtree at the same time as on eBay.  In fact I think that's implicitly allowed under the process for withdrawing a listing: you can give "no longer available" as a reason.  However, I think if one seller did that a lot then that would spark some interest from eBay.

 

What do real auction houses do eg if an item doesn't make its reserve price, but a buyer than approaches the seller to offer the reserve price, or close to it, after the auction closes?  Does the auction house expect to/have a right to get a cut of whatever deal the two parties conclude?

Edited September 24, 2017 by ejstubbs

[RBAGE]

It annoys me that what started as an auction site is now just a shop window.

 

I can't imagine that your man in the street who is using Ebay as an auction selling site will need to worry about these changes.

 

I for one have benefited, several times, from Ebay's security measures. 

Edited September 24, 2017 by RBAGE

[asmay2002]

So eBay are cracking down on dodgy sellers.  About time.

[Marc_63]

Ebay also need to crack down on dodgy buyers. I will not sell anything on Ebay i can't afford to get scammed by unscrupulous buyers taking advantage of the returns policy. Sellers are given no choice but to refund buyers for any reason they choose. Ebay will always find in the buyers favour. Rant over !

 

Marc

[Butler Henderson]

Got me wondering about three transactions (all above board) that I have had sort of via Ebay

 

- A Bachmann Collectors Club Ivatt 2 that did not sell and which the seller accepted an offer I made (which may or may not have been through Ebay messaging) (The offer incidentally was enough to cover his purchase cost of the model and ebay fees while still being cheaper than joining the Collectors Club and buying the loco).

- A stack of Hornby brick retaining walls that did not sell and the seller agreed a price by emails outside of Ebay.

- A purchased through Ebay DCC Concepts Point Decoder that turned out to be faulty and was replaced by completely different items through the sellers own web site.

[letterspider]

Yes but ebay is saying they will pursue the buyer also... (Again I can't believe ebay can legally enforce restraint of a consumers choice of platform to do business).

 

I understand what they are trying to do.. stop people cutting ebay out of a deal procured using their site, but the wording is open to such interpretation that it goes go way beyond that into restricting trade of items not sold (but merely just listed) on their site that could be sold offline to people who use ebay.

 

heres an example..

I find a class 47 on ebay that is sold by a well know model retailer, who's username is easily recognised.

I goto that retailers website and buy it from the retailer directly.

The retailer takes the item offline as they sold it.

 

Ebay can claim fees from the retailer for my circumventing ebay's Website to conclude a sale, as I used ebay to find the item.

They can also go after me for their costs in proving that in my search history, I looked for that item on ebay, but bought it direct, as the listing allowed me to identify the customer and I was able to identify them. Ebay lost out because I found a cheaper route to the same item from the same ebay seller using eBay's website.

 

(They would probably need to establish a pattern from my shopping habits.. they could have a computer program analyse my ebay browsing habits, and combine that with other website tracking tools, or even collaboration on browsing history from my ISP for example, and if I make a habit of looking for an item on ebay, but then not buying it but visiting another site, they could start to become suspicious for example). All this can be fully automated today and such software is readily available and widely used already.

 

All it does is track me and every other joe, and flags up anomaly and automatically dish out warnings to the lowest level offenders then send everything else to low level guys out in the 3rd world to sift through this stuff, deal with, and flag up the ones of interest for management attention and so on.

 

heres another example..

I get the 47 in the mail.

In the box is an invoice for the 47, but also lists Retailer's website on the invoice.

Retailer can be chased by ebay for using eBay's customers who bought goods on ebay to advance the business away from their site.

 

Ebay could do this by ghost buying the item themselves, presumably on the back of suspicions, i.e. the seller constantly removing items from sale, or a report by a user.

 

or another scenario..

 

I have a 47 on ebay.

I sell it to john doe in the shop, who says he saw it online and decided to come look at your shop.

I remove the item from ebay

 

Turns out JohnDoe works for ebay undercover team, or maybe Jon doe just has a grudge against you.

ebay claims I have sold the item to JohnDoe as a result of JohnDoe finding the item on ebay and visiting the shop to buy it, claims the final valuation fee, and all the enforcement fees associated with it. They will could, if it's worthwhile to them, also try to claim everything you've ever taken offline of ebay without a sale too is as a result of this, and you'll need to prove otherwise..

 

This is total nonsense. I go to visit a Liverpool boxshifter's website and spot an item I like. I shop around for better prices, including eBay, because I want my Nectar points. I decide to buy it from Sheffield in person as I live there and the item is taken off their site. My browing history shows all of this. eBay cannot claim they lost business - it is anti-competitive nonsense. If they want to make more money stop charging 10% fees on postage costs etc. Unfortunately eBay have a very slick team for lobbying the legislators and they have been getting away with anti-competitive practices like this for years - including forcing people to use Paypal.

I cannot see how this can be legal in Europe and this smacks of eBay seeing Brexit as an opportunity to get a stranglehold the UK market.

Solution - we could start a petition on the 38 degrees website but I doubt it would get to 1,000 signatures, let alone 100,000

[Anglian]

I was made aware of a supplier, not based in the UK, who is selling pirated copies of models made by a company with its HQ is Australia. The genuine maker are aware of the forgeries and contacted eBay to have them withdrawn. Ebay did nothing to support the legal owner of the rights to the models and the forgeries are still for sale on Ebay. The Australian based company made all its customers, on their mailing list, aware of this even though the loyal folk like myself had already realised that those on Ebay are fakes. I contacted eBay to report the items as forgeries. Did they respond to me? No. Are the fakes still available? Yes.

 

I also became aware of another scam where goods are offered for 'Buy it Now' at a very, very good price (too good to be true) but as a strange price say something like £28.57. Being alerted to this scam after a couple of weeks I began to recognise that the images these types of scam were using were copies of those that other vendors had used in their own listings. I reported a whole raft of these to Ebay and they did remove them.

 

Purely from my own perspective Ebay is not as good for hobby shopping as it used to be.

[Colin_McLeod]

.. that'll be Google Adsense at work, linking all your ip's mac, addresses, devices to you as a user and showing you content as you move around, and collecting more detail on each site you visit.

Certainly don't type in Escort and Model without Ford and OO gauge, your misses might start seeing things she might not want to expect !

Tell me about it. Remember that model shop called "International Models"