Scottish Region pre-grouping locos in the 1960s

[bluesparkdave]

just a suggestion for a possible new product. In the early 1960s British Railways Scottish region restored four steam locomotives to their pre-grouping liveries and used them for railtours and enthusiasts specials. Would any manufacturer be up for producing a boxed presentation set containing all 4 locos?

[BoD]

I suppose it would depend on how many people they thought would be up for buying them.

[Bernard Lamb]

At work we had a design manual.

A few pages were headed with a topic and a comment on the lines of "do not proceed without consulting xyz".

Two pages had the comment "don't even think about it".

I think, given the traditional reluctance of the RTR suppliers, your idea falls into that area.

Bernard

[Ian Smeeton]

Would be nice to see

 

 

 

http://gpgrailway.livejournal.com/299.html

 

Then we could model scenes like this.

 

As I am doing in 2mm fs

 

Regards

 

Ian

 

Edited  to remove photo and replace with link.

Not to self, do not post when in cups. Copyright police are watching YOU!

Edited September 26, 2017 by Ian Smeeton

[pH]

What's the date of that photo, Ian? I've tried Six Bells Junction without success.

[brack]

They'd surely sell more than the obscure diesel prototypes which have been done RTR?

 

Plus they ran for decades in other liveries.

 

I can't see anyone making 4 models and waiting to release them all together though.

[Mad McCann]

I would love to see them done but for economic and demographic reasons, like any other Scottish company design I'm going to file this proposal über 'nice, but Nae chance'. Far too many obscure GW and Southern types to be done yet.

 

D.

[Legend]

It would be nice , but like others I think I'd have to say pretty unrealistic.

 

To supply all 4 models to new exacting specifications would take a lot of resources from our manufacturers. Ultimate selling price £500 ( probably very low)-£800. This would make it too rich for most enthusiasts, collectors . The markets like a pyramid , the higher up you go in price the less sales you achieve. So what are the four ? Caley 4-2-2, Reid 4-4-0,Jones Goods 4-6-0 and GNoSR 4-4-0 . All pretty little engines but I can't see them selling all 4 .

 

What might be more achievable is the occasional Scottish loco that made it late into the BR period. As people know I'd love a Caley 812 class 0-6-0 . Why do I feel this more likely? It lasted into BR days so you have Caley blue, LMS early and later liveries, BR early and late crests. Significantly you can run it during BR transition period which seems to be the most popular period to model. The main reason though is because in Caley form it's a really nice looking blue locos. Blue locos sell. I bet of the 3 Peckett the Huntley and Palmers one , with its pseudo Caley livery, was the most sought after. Look at the Bachmann SE&CR 0-6-0 in its pretty livery . I bet lots of people bought that because it looked nice. A Caley blue 0-6-0 would sell beyond those modelling Scottish Railways. I think that's the best candidate , but you could also look at Caley 0-4-4T and maybe NBR 4-4-0 Glens or NBR 0-6-0 . I think these are all best bets .

 

But I despair at companies producing more and more escoteric diesels. The Bullied diesel being a case in point. Surely Scottish railways are more popular than that.

[Londontram]

It would be nice , but like others I think I'd have to say pretty unrealistic.

 

To supply all 4 models to new exacting specifications would take a lot of resources from our manufacturers. Ultimate selling price £500 ( probably very low)-£800. This would make it too rich for most enthusiasts, collectors . The markets like a pyramid , the higher up you go in price the less sales you achieve. So what are the four ? Caley 4-2-2, Reid 4-4-0,Jones Goods 4-6-0 and GNoSR 4-4-0 . All pretty little engines but I can't see them selling all 4 .

 

What might be more achievable is the occasional Scottish loco that made it late into the BR period. As people know I'd love a Caley 812 class 0-6-0 . Why do I feel this more likely? It lasted into BR days so you have Caley blue, LMS early and later liveries, BR early and late crests. Significantly you can run it during BR transition period which seems to be the most popular period to model. The main reason though is because in Caley form it's a really nice looking blue locos. Blue locos sell. I bet of the 3 Peckett the Huntley and Palmers one , with its pseudo Caley livery, was the most sought after. Look at the Bachmann SE&CR 0-6-0 in its pretty livery . I bet lots of people bought that because it looked nice. A Caley blue 0-6-0 would sell beyond those modelling Scottish Railways. I think that's the best candidate , but you could also look at Caley 0-4-4T and maybe NBR 4-4-0 Glens or NBR 0-6-0 . I think these are all best bets .

 

But I despair at companies producing more and more escoteric diesels. The Bullied diesel being a case in point. Surely Scottish railways are more popular than that.

Rather than an 812 class wouldn't an original Jumbo 294 class be better they to lasted to near the end of Scottish steam going through all the periods noted above but being first built in 1883 would appeal to modelers modeling the pre 1900 period as well where the 812 which was not introduced until 1899 would not. Also because of there numbers they became very wide spread over the Scottish net work so would appeal to a wider range of Scottish modelers not just those modeling the former Caledonian area.

 

Mind you Hattons have seemed to get two models out of the one chassis with there latest Andrew Barclay with the jumbo and 812 being almost identical from the running plate down perhaps there's scope to do two models with a reduced development cost with the main differences being the boiler and cab.It would probably be harder to find a suitable tender for both that covers so many periods as the chopped and changed so much over the years.

 

Oh dear I fear were back to thinking about wish lists again still I guess there's no harm in dreaming is there

[Legend]

Yes the jumbo would be a better bet because there were lots more of them. However , I don't think any of them were Caley Blue , while the 812 definitely was. Also 812 is preserved and can still be seen running whereas unfortunately none of the Jumbos are.

[Torper]

Rather than an 812 class wouldn't an original Jumbo 294 class be better they to lasted to near the end of Scottish steam going through all the periods noted above but being first built in 1883 would appeal to modelers modeling the pre 1900 period as well

 

As a P4 modeller I'd love to see a Jumbo built in 1883!

 

DT

 

P.S.  If you like building etched brass kits, Caley Coaches do a very nice 812 class.

[Legend]

As a P4 modeller I'd love to see a Jumbo built in 1883!

 

DT

 

P.S.  If you like building etched brass kits, Caley Coaches do a very nice 812 class.

Unfortunately way beyond my capabilities. But thanks . I'd always hoped OO works would branch out into Scotland , but they seem to have gone Irish!

[ian@stenochs]

 

They might be better doing a loco for the company which was not represented in the 1960s revival!  The Drummond pug now preserved in Glasgow.  They also served in Industrial service so attractive to another branch of the hobby.

[JohnR]

Yes the jumbo would be a better bet because there were lots more of them. However , I don't think any of them were Caley Blue , while the 812 definitely was. Also 812 is preserved and can still be seen running whereas unfortunately none of the Jumbos are.

I believe 812 was never Blue in service - only preservation. 

[Legend]

I believe 812 was never Blue in service - only preservation.

 

Possibly but it was of a class that had members painted blue. I think maybe for Clyde services

[Londontram]

812 Is the class No. The preserved one is 828 which is and always was blue. also a lot of jumbos were blue as well. Basically if it was fitted with an air pump and air brakes and was available for passenger use then it was painted blue. So there's scope for two livery veriations already with just the addition of an air pump alongside the firebox on the firemans side it would be blue but not only blue before cir 1900 dark blue and after 1900 to the grouping light blue. If its not got the air pump then goods black with a red and white lining

Edited September 26, 2017 by Londontram

[Steamport Southport]

Yes I think that a CR or NBR 0-6-0 or even CR 0-4-4T would be a better option to test the waters. Then out of the four I would go for a D34, named engines apparently sell well. To be honest the other three are a bit more niche and looking at the price of the GNR 4-2-2 then I would expect that CR 123 would be that sort of price at the very least.

 

The Jones Goods looks like it would be a right pain with the front driving wheel spacing. http://www.lochgormkits.co.uk/html/7mm_locomotives.html#7HRL4A

 

 

Funny that Scottish diesels seem to sell well yet Scottish steam is largely ignored.

 

I wonder how many CR 0-4-0STs they have sold over the years?

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

 

But I despair at companies producing more and more escoteric diesels. The Bullied diesel being a case in point. Surely Scottish railways are more popular than that.

 

I don't know. A diesel class that worked on both the LMR and SR mainlines, on passenger and freight from the 1940s to the mid 1960s. Designed by one of the most famous CMEs who has a bit of a cult following. I would expect the Bulleid diesels to fly out of the door.

 

They even worked in Scotland!

 

 

 

Jason

[ScRSG]

Well, if you look long enough, you could get a Tri-ang/Hornby Caley 123, a Gem/PDK Glen, a DJH Jones Goods and I am sure someone did a kit of Gordon Highlander as well, so all four at a much less cost than new rtr versions!

(Slightly tongue in cheek, I admit!)

[Steamport Southport]

The D40 Gordon Highlander was Nu Cast I think. Wasn't that the one that the SECR had a few of as well?

 

 

I'll also add that London Road Models have a Caley Single.

 

https://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/locos-tenders-chassis/caledonian-railway/

 

 

 

Jason

[Ian Smeeton]

What's the date of that photo, Ian? I've tried Six Bells Junction without success.

 

Hi pH

 

17/4/65, Scottish Rambler No 4 Railtour.

 

Are you in it?

 

RegardsIan

[brack]

Yes, the D40 is the best bet from a logical point of view of having secr/southern liveries and two regions, but logic plays no part as the only one of the 4 to have had an RTR model is the rather pointless Caledonian single, the only representative of its class with the shortest regular service career of the 4 types and fairly unrepresentative of Caley motive power.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... In the early 1960s British Railways Scottish region restored four steam locomotives to their pre-grouping liveries and used them for railtours and enthusiasts specials. Would any manufacturer be up for producing a boxed presentation set containing all 4 locos?

Much as others, I think first we need a manufacturer to produce just one Scottish railway company loco. Once the gratifying sales results have been achieved, then every manufacturer can participate in the mad scramble to bag the likely 'hot properties'.

[Londontram]

Yes, the D40 is the best bet from a logical point of view of having secr/southern liveries and two regions, but logic plays no part as the only one of the 4 to have had an RTR model is the rather pointless Caledonian single, the only representative of its class with the shortest regular service career of the 4 types and fairly unrepresentative of Caley motive power.

Most likely the main reason for the Triang Caley single was the availability of the Lord of the Isles chassis that the Caley loco had to be stretched to fit mind you Triang did have some 4-4-0 chassis so they could have done a Scottish 4-4-0 as well if they had wanted to

 

Yes it was the D40 that was brought and used by the SE&CR they had I believe five that were surplus to the GNoS needs they couldn't afford them all initially) and so successful were they down south that the SE&CR tried to buy the other five from the GNoS

[bluesparkdave]

I must admit it would be great if somebody would produce a Caley 0-6-0 as I model South West Scotland around 1960 and, as well as the 4 locos mentioned, there were a lot of ex-Caley 0-6-0s around. And the BR Standard 3 2-6-0 but no RTR model of that either!