Changes impending at Derby in 2018

[Fat Controller]

Oh no, the idiots, don't they know what they're doing. According to the diagram they've done away with curves

Should have used Templot...

[Wild Boar Fell]

Oh no, the idiots, don't they know what they're doing. According to the diagram they've done away with curves

 

This new Digital Railway - can't have smooth curves...

[big jim]

the other think im led to believe is the sinfin branch will become one long siding as such, the 3 electrically operated ground frames down there are going to become hand points (which from experience of how often they used to fail can only be a good thing!)

 

i can happily say i have done all of derby's current track work, sidings, loops etc before they rip it up (apart from the line into litchurch lane)

[big jim]

I've just been sent the final signalling diagrams for the new set up, there are a few different things to the above plans, there now appears to be 2 roads into chaddesden, only one lead in from the main line but splitting to arrivals/departure 1 and 2 roads

[brushman47544]

Why the kink? It could be just a diagram, and not strictly to scale.

 

Oh no, the idiots, don't they know what they're doing. According to the diagram they've done away with curves

 

Very funny. My point was why not a straight exit north from 5 by keeping the track parallel with and equidistant to the track leading into platform 6. The points leading in/out would still fit according to the diagram.

Edited September 28, 2017 by brushman47544

[Dunsignalling]

They will no doubt be built to 25kV clearances.

 

And then by the time wires get there, DafT will have changed the rules again and they'll be non compliant by 5mm and will need rebuilding.

It gets "better" than that. A year or two before our box went, Honiton got a new 25kv compliant footbridge, allegedly good for 40 years (the old one lasted 120+).  

 

Any bets on, when the wires do arrive, whether they pass under the current bridge's replacement or the one after that? 

 

Mind you, the extra steps are helping keep local rail users fit.

 

John

[eastwestdivide]

Very funny. My point was why not a straight exit north from 5 by keeping the track parallel with and equidistant to the track leading into platform 6. The points leading in/out would still fit according to the diagram.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be funny, just suggesting an alternative interpretation. 

[Zomboid]

It gets "better" than that. A year or two before our box went, Honiton got a new 25kv compliant footbridge, allegedly good for 40 years (the old one lasted 120+).

 

Any bets on, when the wires do arrive, whether they pass under the current bridge's replacement or the one after that?

 

Mind you, the extra steps are helping keep local rail users fit.

 

John

To be honest, as a policy it seems fairly sensible to build everything to 25kV standards if it's not grossly disproportionate to do so. I imagine in this case it constitutes 3 or 4 extra steps, which I wouldn't consider to be that much.

Admittedly I don't forsee wires getting to Honiton in the near future, but it seems like fairly sensible future-proofing. Can you imagine the fuss if wires did arrive in 10 years or so and the new bridge needed demolition?

[black and decker boy]

The problem seems to be the change in minimum clearances in NR Group standards which probably means any structures built 5 years ago won't now be compliant.

[Edwin_m]

Why the kink? It could be just a diagram, and not strictly to scale.

It certainly isn't.  The distance to the RTC is a lot less than half the distance to Spondon as the plan suggests!  If you visualise the new platform 5/6 tracks cutting across the corner of Etches Park, that end of the layout will certainly be a lot smoother than the present question-mark-shaped journey over numerous diamonds.  It's a bit harder to understand the north end - at least one of those connections looks unnecessary to me. 

[big jim]

Which connection do you see as unnecessary?

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Just in time for the new PECO track.....

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I expect there will still be crossovers at the south end of the station too. The end result will be that the service to Nottingham will be able to depart without conflicting with other moves. At the moment trains cannot arrive simultaneously from St Pancras and Birmingham, and simultaneous departures are only possible if the arrivals from both Birmingham and London are blocked. I think the new layout means that all trains should be able to arrive/depart from the south without conflicting with anything else, apart from perhaps the Birmingham to Nottingham service which would have to cross over at the south either on arrival or departure. Presumably if crossing over on arrival conflicts with something then crossing over on departure can be done instead, so there should be scope for minimising conflict there too. 

 

Trains can currently arrive simultaneously from the Birmingham and London directions; there is a facing crossover at Way & Works (just by the RTC) which enables trains from London/Nottm to use the up line to access platforms 2-6 if something is coming into plat 1 from B'ham.

[APOLLO]

God help Derbyites if Network Rail do a repeat of Huyton & Roby rebuilds.

 

New platform built couple of years ago for the 4 tracking & electrification, track laid but not yet connected, then they find out the new platform is 15mm to close to the new line - so demolish it & rebuild it. Same just up the line at Roby. Talk about wasting money !!

 

 

Brit15

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Derbian please Apollo..........

[Titan]

Trains can currently arrive simultaneously from the Birmingham and London directions; there is a facing crossover at Way & Works (just by the RTC) which enables trains from London/Nottm to use the up line to access platforms 2-6 if something is coming into plat 1 from B'ham.

 

The number of times I have been stuck on a Birmingham-Derby train waiting just outside Derby for a St Pancras-Derby train to pass would suggest if there is they rarely use it! It was getting silly, our train would pull up just short of the London road bridge on time, and then wait until we were 10-15 mins late!

[Edwin_m]

Which connection do you see as unnecessary?

 

I can't get it to diplay here but it's shown in red in http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/83319-derby/

 

The track to the right of it can't be a loop because it's the main route into the high-numbered platforms, so that crossover just brings trains back onto the track they have just left.  Unless of course the track above and to the right is some kind of loop. 

Edited September 28, 2017 by Edwin_m

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Edwin,

The track layouts are very diagrammatic and not totally accurate. For example, the current plan doesn't show the correct entrance to Litchurch Lane (Bombardier) works, or the double and single slip connections at London Road Jn.

 

The crossover you refer to looks to me like the end of the up goods loop which extends back to Little Eaton Jn.

 

The Five Arches bridge at the north end of Derby station (my regular Saturday morning haunt when I was a young boy) only has room for five tracks, and one of these leads to Chadd Sidings. Hence there would be some space constraints at that end of the layout.

[big jim]

Looking at the scale map I have the space between the 2 sets of points is just over a mile so I assume it's so things can be looped on the up slow and let back out on the faster cross over at the end of the loop, the points futher down towards the station look to be a slower speed set

[Andrew Young]

The number of times I have been stuck on a Birmingham-Derby train waiting just outside Derby for a St Pancras-Derby train to pass would suggest if there is they rarely use it! It was getting silly, our train would pull up just short of the London road bridge on time, and then wait until we were 10-15 mins late!

That crossover is regularly used and I regularly arrive in pl 1 at Derby with my Voyager alongside a Meridian or Turbo arriving in parallel to a higher numbered platform from the Spondon direction.

 

Often when held outside Derby waiting for a platform coming from the west, you're waiting for two trains to arrive / depart from the station using the various crossovers, usually one departing west and another arriving in from Spondon. Whilst clearly seen from the driving cab, it's not visible from the train.

 

Whilst you won't stop at London Road any more waiting a platform, with the new layout, expect to spend time at either St Mary's or LNW Jn waiting a path through the crossovers.,..

 

I could go on about the issues with the old layout, the new layout, what NR have to date not provided and their unwillingness / inability to listen to the TOC & FOC requests or the fact that the modelling used that I've seen bears little relation to the way a real train is driven, but will resist for now!

 

Cheers,

Andy

(XC Driver based at Derby)

[phil-b259]

God help Derbyites if Network Rail do a repeat of Huyton & Roby rebuilds.

 

New platform built couple of years ago for the 4 tracking & electrification, track laid but not yet connected, then they find out the new platform is 15mm to close to the new line - so demolish it & rebuild it. Same just up the line at Roby. Talk about wasting money !!

 

 

Brit15

Sorry to rain on your NR bashing parade but in this particular case the issue was the need to compulsory purchase a small sliver of additional land from BT, which was held up due to and various legal issues on that crucial 500yard section such that the window within which signalling / electrification resources were avalible to make the necessary changes was lost.

 

As has been well publicised for a number of years now by industry sources, both signalling installers / testers as well as OLE skills are well below what is needed in the U.K. and as such if things don't happen when planned it is not that easy to reschedule the works for a few months later. Then you need to factor in continued growth in the demand for rail travel and the restrictions that poses to the big possessions necessary for large projects.

 

Ultimately however the problem with regulations regarding clearances is our own DfT /ORR insists of rigeriously applying / gold plating standards where the difference is minimal and the older standard is close enough that it makes no real difference if that is what gets used. Put it this way I severely doubt DB, SNCF or the French equlivalent of the ORR would turn round and impose significant extra costs on a current scheme by insisting bridges or platforms are rebuilt to gain a few extra multimeters.

[APOLLO]

Rubbish.

 

We invented railways in the UK and have been building stations since around 1830. you would have thought we would know what we are doing by now. The track is new, the platform is new, the build was wrong. Not got the legal easement for the land ? - then don't build till you have. Quite simple.

 

Network Rail is the principal overseer of all new works. Whoever fouled up the final responsibility lies with Network rail - full stop.

 

True though that skills are lacking, from the humble labourer right to the very top, contractors included, and perhaps the legal "eagles" also.

 

A total disgrace is the above fiasco.

 

edited to add - The Liverpool & Manchester Railway, of which both Huyton & Roby stations are located was the UK's first public passenger carrying railway, opened in 1830. Ironic isn't it !!

 

Brit15

Edited September 29, 2017 by APOLLO

[The Stationmaster]

The problem seems to be the change in minimum clearances in NR Group standards which probably means any structures built 5 years ago won't now be compliant.

 

Although oddly on the GWML structures built in the 19th century apparently are compliant without even going to the bother of lowering the track that passes beneath them.   There are some very low arch bridges just west of Slough and nothing at all has been done in the vicinity of them and the same applies to the Relief Line Overbridge at Twyford which dates from broad gauge times.

[black and decker boy]

Although oddly on the GWML structures built in the 19th century apparently are compliant without even going to the bother of lowering the track that passes beneath them. There are some very low arch bridges just west of Slough and nothing at all has been done in the vicinity of them and the same applies to the Relief Line Overbridge at Twyford which dates from broad gauge times.

But equally there have been reports of footbridges and signal gantries installed relatively recently and supposedly OHLE compliant having to be raised further west.

[Robert Shrives]

Oh no, the idiots, don't they know what they're doing. According to the diagram they've done away with curves

Saves buying the tracksetta curved formers , just kink it by eye ..... what could possibly go wrong .... I guess they will all be electrofrog medium radius ones as well ....!