Best decoders?

[WIMorrison]

I am often confused in the choice of decoders and I have stuck with Lenz gold mini as they fit the very restricted space in my locos.

 

I do see posts suggesting that this decoder is better than the other one or company A is really good but company B decoders are rubbish.

 

What makes A better than B or C assuming that they provide the same functionality?

 

Edit - if this should have been in discussion topics please move it to the correct place (I also can’t work out what is a discussion and what is a request for help )

Edited October 12, 2017 by WIMorrison

[Crosland]

If you need particular features then that make one decoder "better" than another

 

The real noticeable difference is in how well the motor is controlled, especially where Back-EMF sampling is employed. Lenz used to have very little flexibility, just 5 undocumented motor types to choose from. Is that still the same? Zimo and others allow a lot of tuning if you have the time but will often work "out of the box".

 

Some decoders seem to cope better than other is the suppression capacitors are left in.

 

If you are happy then remember the maxim "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

[davefromacrossthepond]

I think what you'll find is that if you were to ask 10 people what the best decoder manufacturer is, you would get 11 different answers.  On questions like this no sooner will one person post that he's never had a single problem with the 10 brand A decoders he's installed, another will post that he likes brand B because every brand A decoder he used "blew up."  I don't think either is telling a mistruth, just providing their experience. It's kinda like going to Texas and asking a bunch of ranchers - "Which truck is better Ford or Chevy?"   When reading decoder posts, be sure to take note of the model decoder being discussed, it's advertised specs, its pricepoint and the use it was put to.  And while I don't mean to upset anyone here, take note of who it is making the comments.  

[Ron Ron Ron]

The sort of things that differentiate "better" decoders from others, include...

 

better (more refined or smoother) motor control

increased range of fine tuning through CV parameters

more robust in dealing with electrical spikes, shorts, slightly "off" DCC waveforms etc,

reliability

sometimes better build quality

 

Moving up to the more expensive decoders in the "reputable" brand's ranges, brings increased function and feature sets, which many modellers won't need. e.g. servo outputs, SUSI interfaces etc.

 

 

.

[pauliebanger]

The sort of things that differentiate "better" decoders from others, include...

 

better (more refined or smoother) motor control

increased range of fine tuning through CV parameters

more robust in dealing with electrical spikes, shorts, slightly "off" DCC waveforms etc,

reliability

sometimes better build quality

 

Moving up to the more expensive decoders in the "reputable" brand's ranges, brings increased function and feature sets, which many modellers won't need. e.g. servo outputs, SUSI interfaces etc.

 

 

.

 

Here's a useful consideration when weighing up the relative qualities of decoders.

 

Can the decoder's operating software be updated? Preferably for free and even better if you can do it yourself in situ.

 

If not, you will be stuck with the decoder's capabilities at the time you make your purchase. No chance to upgrade or add features other than to buy a new one.

 

If it can, then it can always be bang up to date with features.

 

Take ZIMO as a case in point. Lets imagine you bought one 4 years ago. Since that time several new features have been added, including progressive working brakes for more realistic operations.

 

By downloading and updating your old ZIMO decoder with the latest software*, you can now add the working brake feature (and other cool stuff) bringing its specification up to the same level as new ZIMO decoders. This way, buying quality at the outset can last a lifetime and still be renewed and rejuvinated over and over again.

 

*You will need a one-off purchase of some ZIMO kit to achieve this 'at home'. Alternatively, dealers or colleagues or club members who have this kit will be pleased to help.

 

Fortunately, there are now ZIMO decoders which are competitively priced against budget items so no longer do you need to pay a premium for one of the top brands, packed with features.

 

ZIMO also make very small decoders, though not always at the cheapest end of the price range.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

 

 

Ron Ron Ron,

 

Sorry, I did not mean to quote your post in my response. I fully agree with the points you make.

Edited October 12, 2017 by pauliebanger

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...What makes A better than B or C assuming that they provide the same functionality?

That requires that criteria be established to perform the assessment. (Your own mention of a compactness requirement is one such criterion.) In short you have to know what you want in order to define what constitutes 'the best' for you. There's a wide range of criteria to choose among and prioritise, and thus consequently a wide range of what constitutes 'the best' for different users.

 

A good example of a criterion is sound. One of the factors that persuaded me that DCC was a goer, was the advent of 'silent drive' in reasonably priced decoders, instead of the tendency to emit various noises while operating. But apparently some will now pay far higher prices for decoders which deliberately make noises, very strange.

[Phil S]

German model railway magazines make more technical assessments of items they review than the UK magazines.. And have periodically produced comparative reviews presented with a tabular result which help the user choose on the basis of size, shape, performance, current and voltage ratings and compliance.... At least in the past when there were fewer'own brand' badged types ?? My experience was finding these in 'summer' issues... Perhaps because that was when I was on holiday and bought them 8-)

A google search for them might find current information. On a 'similar' vein, Jmri software has CV data. / choices for many decoders. Which might help if searching for functions like flickering fireboxes, and perhaps day/night lighting...

 

For the diminishing proportion of cabled decoders, wire type/ quality can also be a consideration.

[Nigelcliffe]

I am often confused in the choice of decoders and I have stuck with Lenz gold mini as they fit the very restricted space in my locos.

 

 

 

There's no point fitting a Lenz "Gold" over their Standard or Silver models unless you are also using the Power-1 module or other advanced add-ons with the Gold.   In terms of motor control and function features, the Standard and Silver do the same as the Gold  (source of this information: Lenz' own website - ). 

 

That said, Lenz are not that high on my list of decoder makers for quality of control (five poorly documented motor options doesn't give good control) or small space (they're not that small).  I did a load of decoder tests on my models some years ago and Lenz were in the "slightly worse than I can achieve with a good DC controller" category (but were a lot better than some others, which I rated as "awful"), whereas Zimo and CT were in the "significantly better than I can achieve with good DC controller".   Of course, my models are not your models, and it was a few years back when I ran the tests.  

 

I tend to fit Zimo if there is enough space.  If space is tight and its a small low power motor, then its CT Elektronik who make the smallest decoders available and they have superb control.  

 

 

- Nigel

[ROSSPOP]

There's no point fitting a Lenz "Gold" over their Standard or Silver models unless you are also using the Power-1 module or other advanced add-ons with the Gold.   In terms of motor control and function features, the Standard and Silver do the same as the Gold  (source of this information: Lenz' own website - ). 

 

That said, Lenz are not that high on my list of decoder makers for quality of control (five poorly documented motor options doesn't give good control) or small space (they're not that small).  I did a load of decoder tests on my models some years ago and Lenz were in the "slightly worse than I can achieve with a good DC controller" category (but were a lot better than some others, which I rated as "awful"), whereas Zimo and CT were in the "significantly better than I can achieve with good DC controller".   Of course, my models are not your models, and it was a few years back when I ran the tests.  

 

I tend to fit Zimo if there is enough space.  If space is tight and its a small low power motor, then its CT Elektronik who make the smallest decoders available and they have superb control.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

It all depends on what you wish to achieve with decoders...........

 

I think Nigel has done his home work........

 

... so if you want......  quality in the following....... sound  (up to 3W),  motor performance, lights (leds or bulbs), smoke etc...... and can be interchangeable between 4mm and 7mm requirements using MODERN motors......

 

There is only one.............  Zimo MX645...........  ( although the CT Elektonik looks good too )

 

 

john

[John K]

We all have our favourites.

I think most experienced user would agree that you will not get the best results from bargain basement, own brand decoders.

John

[pauliebanger]

It all depends on what you wish to achieve with decoders...........

 

I think Nigel has done his home work........

 

... so if you want......  quality in the following....... sound  (up to 3W),  motor performance, lights (leds or bulbs), smoke etc...... and can be interchangeable between 4mm and 7mm requirements using MODERN motors......

 

There is only one.............  Zimo MX645...........  ( although the CT Elektonik looks good too )

 

 

john

 

John,

 

I would absolutely agree with your analysis and recomendation; the MX645 with 10 Function Outputs is my 'go to' decoder.

 

However, the OP is not asking about sound decoders. Neither was I refering to sound decoders.

 

ZIMO non-sound decoders, and I assume ESU too, benefit hugely from the developments of their sound decoder equivalents. That's why you can buy a ZIMO MX600 with all the legendary fine control that comes with their flagship decoders for £19, half the price of a Lenz Gold Mini with almost twice the power rating.

 

And like all ZIMO decoders, sound or non-sound, are fully updateable via a simple software upload. This allows sound and non-sound decoders to operate correctly together, since they all have the same motor control algorithyms and other control features.

 

If you want a small 6 pin decoder, the ZIMO MX622N has similar features but costs a whole £1 more than the MX600. That's £20 for a small format decoder with all the core benefits of ZIMO decoders in a 'no frills' format. Of course, ZIMO's ideda of 'no frills' is still far in excess of what some brands provide on their premium offerings.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

German model railway magazines make more technical assessments of items they review than the UK magazines.. And have periodically produced comparative reviews presented with a tabular result which help the user choose on the basis of size, shape, performance, current and voltage ratings and compliance.... At least in the past when there were fewer'own brand' badged types ?? My experience was finding these in 'summer' issues... Perhaps because that was when I was on holiday and bought them 8-)

A google search for them might find current information. On a 'similar' vein, Jmri software has CV data. / choices for many decoders. Which might help if searching for functions like flickering fireboxes, and perhaps day/night lighting...

 

For the diminishing proportion of cabled decoders, wire type/ quality can also be a consideration.

 

Phil,

 

Hornby Magazine has carried similar comparisons.

 

Maybe RMweb could host such a table. Here's some data on the £19 MX600 family to get things rolling.

 

ZIMO has answered the long-standing call for an economy decoder for the core OO/HO market with the launch of the MX600 family. This has been achieved by focusing on what the modeller needs the most from a basic decoder and omitting superfluous features. Advanced circuitry design has also allowed for a compact and economic single-sided layout, only 2mm in height.

 •          MX600 (Wires), MX600R (8-pin), MX600P12 (PluX12)

•          Single-sided ‘ultra thin’ design 25 x 11 x 2mm

•          DCC, DC (Analogue), RailCom equipped

•          4 Function outputs (FOf, FOr, FO1, FO2)

•          0.8 Amp (1.5 Amp peak) motor rating

 ZIMO features as standard (all decoders)

•          Automatic motor regulation and optimization

•          High frequency ‘silent drive’ back-EMF sampling for all motors inc. coreless

•          3 & 28-step programmable speed curves

•          Thermal cut-outs and overload protection

•          Numerous lighting control (special effects) options

•          Signal and distance-controlled stopping

•          ZIMO software update capability via track

•          3-year ‘repair or replace’ manufacturing warranty

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Suzie]

There is very little difference in the electronic components in decoders - they all have pretty much the same bits. The difference really comes from the software in them and the features that are provided. the difference in retail price generally reflects what the manufacturer can get for it rather than the cost to make.

 

Electronic differences include whether Railcom is fitted, the number of outputs, the current that can be supplied, whether direct plug or wires are fitted, whether stay alive provision is made, and the size of components. These factors have very little bearing on how much the decoders cost to make - a top end decoder is unlikely to cost more than £1 more to make than the cheapest.

 

Key differences are all in the software - how well the BEMF works, how linear the speed table is, how fancy the lighting functions are, will the decoder stop the loco on a dead spot, and so on.

 

Some manufacturers produce decoders that do not comply with NMRA specs and either don't work properly or emit smoke, and these are often sold at very low prices (often unwittingly rebadged by big names). Sometimes having a guarantee is often a key part of the spec!

 

Take a look at Zimo as the benchmark of what a decoder can do at a price point, and if you are paying more think why? There are a few decoders that have features that Zimo does not have such as:-

 

- The Lenz Gold stay alive is by far the best if you need to run your train over some dead track.

- If you need a decoder with a jst-9 socket you will have to look elsewhere (Lenz, TCS).

- Some loco sounds are not available on Zimo.

- You might need a decoder to fit in a very specific space (small space, NEM652 direct plug, etc.)

[Roger Sunderland]

There is very little difference in the electronic components in decoders - they all have pretty much the same bits. The difference really comes from the software in them and the features that are provided. the difference in retail price generally reflects what the manufacturer can get for it rather than the cost to make.

 

Electronic differences include whether Railcom is fitted, the number of outputs, the current that can be supplied, whether direct plug or wires are fitted, whether stay alive provision is made, and the size of components. These factors have very little bearing on how much the decoders cost to make - a top end decoder is unlikely to cost more than £1 more to make than the cheapest.

 

Key differences are all in the software - how well the BEMF works, how linear the speed table is, how fancy the lighting functions are, will the decoder stop the loco on a dead spot, and so on.

 

Some manufacturers produce decoders that do not comply with NMRA specs and either don't work properly or emit smoke, and these are often sold at very low prices (often unwittingly rebadged by big names). Sometimes having a guarantee is often a key part of the spec!

 

Take a look at Zimo as the benchmark of what a decoder can do at a price point, and if you are paying more think why? There are a few decoders that have features that Zimo does not have such as:-

 

- The Lenz Gold stay alive is by far the best if you need to run your train over some dead track.

- If you need a decoder with a jst-9 socket you will have to look elsewhere (Lenz, TCS).

- Some loco sounds are not available on Zimo.

- You might need a decoder to fit in a very specific space (small space, NEM652 direct plug, etc.)

Not tried Lenz stay alive but it would have to be very good to beat the TCS KA2, imho. Overall Zimo every time for me.

[WIMorrison]

Thansk for all the feedback, it does appear that for motor control they are much of a muchness though it is possible that some newer decoders have more options to control the motor performance than the older decoders that I have, but as the motor control is largely OK now this isn't a killer argument to change. At that time I was looking for using Lenz ABC control and they were the only people using Railcom - I am not clear whether Zimo does support Railcom given that some places say it doesn't as they fell out, yet others say they do. Then there are suggestions that many Loconet devices frown at Railcom and it needs disabling - not easy this DCC stuff!

 

When I chipped many of these locos Lenz was the sensible choice and they wont be getting changed, however as I purchase new stuff Zimo looks like a favourite from the comments here. What I don't understand is why a MX622n costs £20 yet the same decoder but with wires costs £34!!! the wire they use must be solid gold as that woks out at £33 per meter unfortunately I need wires which actually makes sticking with Lenz attractive as the Silver Mini+ is smaller than the Zimo MX621 and the priced pretty much the same.

 

Many thanks for the comments, they were helpful - if only to confirm that on man's meat is another's poison (so to speak )

[Suzie]

All the Zimo MX622 used to be astronomicaly priced - but now that Bachmann rebadge it the price has come down for the Bachmann equivalent version to about the same as Bachmann charge. Typically Zimo used to charge £1 extra for any decoder with wires attached, but that differential appears to be going now on newer decoders - I am sure it will change with the MX622 as well.

 

Zimo has Railcom, and Railcom is an NMRA DCC standard now - but the European manufacturers are extending what Railcom can do. The biggest problem with US made DCC equipment is that a lot of it does not support Railcom having not made provision for the full NMRA DCC spec. On the whole it is not a big issue - with the exception of TCS American made decoders tend to be at the lowest performance end of the spectrum and should be avoided anyway. 

[Butler Henderson]

Not had any problems with TCS M1s and DP2X-UKs. Suppose it depends on what you actually want a loco to do - in my case at the fastest to trundle along at not too high a speed. At the end of the day the best decoders are the ones that fit the loco and a different loco will probably need something completely different.

[RAF96]

The other thing to keep an eye on is how do these 'best' decoders perform with your particular DCC controller as not each and every decoder plays nice with each and every controller and vice-versa.

 

Find a good match in your price range that does the job for you and stick with it.

 

​Rob

[Suzie]

The other thing to keep an eye on is how do these 'best' decoders perform with your particular DCC controller as not each and every decoder plays nice with each and every controller and vice-versa.

 

Find a good match in your price range that does the job for you and stick with it.

 

​Rob

 

It is always best to start with a standards compliant controller then you won't have to worry. If you have a non-standard controller you are going to be in a bit of a pickle!

[Nigelcliffe]

It is always best to start with a standards compliant controller then you won't have to worry. If you have a non-standard controller you are going to be in a bit of a pickle!

 

Where will you find evidence of "standards compliant" ?   

 

The NMRA warrants list shows a complete lack of interest by manufacturers in submitting products for testing, or a lack of interest in testing by the NMRA.  The few items on the NMRA list are all withdrawn from sale, or superseded by new versions.  So, all you have is the maker's claim that its DCC.  

 

 

- Nigel  

[Suzie]

Where will you find evidence of "standards compliant" ?   

 

The NMRA warrants list shows a complete lack of interest by manufacturers in submitting products for testing, or a lack of interest in testing by the NMRA.  The few items on the NMRA list are all withdrawn from sale, or superseded by new versions.  So, all you have is the maker's claim that its DCC.  

 

 

- Nigel  

 

Could be tricky then.

[RAF96]

They all have to be designed as compliant with NMRA else they wont work correctly with DCC, however as stated it seems the manufacturers see little or no benefit in submitting their products for testing and gaining issue of a warrant of conformance.

 

Edit: The NMRA list is as stated of little use - e.g. it shows 3 Hornby products, one of which is an obvious typo as it is the old and unreliable R8215 decoder, when it should be the newer and conformant R8249 decoder.

​Rob

Edited October 17, 2017 by RAFHAAA96

[Junctionmad]

In my opinion, just use ZIMO,