To DAC or not to DAC?

[jpendle]

I wonder if the HiFi enthusiasts can help with a question?

 

I have a bunch of Rega stuff plus a pair of B & W speakers.

 

I was considering buying a DAC to listen to digital music, but can't see what benefits it gives over a headphone jack for any kind of compressed formats. I listen to ITunes and Pandora! AFAIK both are compressed. I hooked up the headphone outlet from my Macbook and turned up my amp.

To my ears everything sounds fine.

 

So why buy a DAC?

 

Thanks,

 

John P

[Ozexpatriate]

I listen to ITunes and Pandora! AFAIK both are compressed. I hooked up the headphone outlet from my Macbook and turned up my amp.

To my ears everything sounds fine.

Then you are already using a DAC - built into your computer.

 

If it sounds fine to you it is fine.

 

There's no question that equipment with larger speakers and better range can and will sound 'better'. At a certain point people with good hearing will notice compression effects when played through quality equipment. These will be less noticeable with lower quality equipment.

 

On top of that audiophiles create all sorts of mysticism over equipment like vacuum tube amplifiers or oversampling DACs. 

 

Some audiophiles do indeed have better hearing than the rest of us and their enjoyment increases from better equipment.  A lot will depend on your hearing.

[jjb1970]

If your current set up sounds fine and you're happy with it then that is the most important thing. However that is not to say that you would not be happier if you were listening to lossless files and using a separate DAC. The cardinal rule of music playing equipment is to use your ears. If you listen to some systems using a separate DAC or a good receiver/amp with its own DAC and cannot discern an improvement then there is no point in upgrading. If you can discern a difference then go for it. There is a lot of nonsense written in hi-fi magazines and on the Internet and there is snake oil out there however good hi-fi equipment is better and you will get better performance from an offboard DAC and amp than you will from a computer or smart device audio circuit. And it doesn't need to be expensive (although it can be extremely expensive). I would recommend trying a lossless format if you enjoy music enough to be considering a DAC, I find the difference between compressed and lossless files can be night and day. I use an Arcam DAC at home which is superb, I found it good value for money but whether others would agree is debatable. I have a TEAC portable headphone DAC/amp which I use with my phone and laptop and it transforms audio performance, the model I have can be found for £160, I consider that to be a bargain as it transforms a telephone or laptop into a very good music source and unlock the performance of good headphones.

[jjb1970]

This is what I use when travelling:

 

https://teac.jp/int/product/ha-p50/top

 

I've been very happy with it, it's been discontinued now but it can still be found and now seems to be nicely discounted, the current going price for remaining stock is £160. There are of course lots of alternatives and most of the recognised hi-fi companies offer comparable products and some of the newer Chinese brands such as Fiio,IBasso and Oppo offer some good gear. At home I use one of these:

 

http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,rSeries,USB-DAC,irdacii.htm

 

These seem to retail at £300 - 350 (despite the £499 SRP) so are more expensive, but I've been very happy with it.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...So why buy a DAC?

 Wealth warning. It is possible that the purchase of a separate DAC may reveal that some recordings contain more content than you were previously able to hear, and this adds materially to your enjoyment. Then comes the recognition that it is not just the replay equipment that varies, but that recordings are made to varying standards too; and before you know it you'll only consider recordings by certain engineers and producers, and will be phase aligning and cable sexing with the best...

[jjb1970]

Indeed, if you get seriously bitten by the bug hi-fi can get very expensive very quickly. Personally although I would love to go up the scale to high end gear I stay in the mid ranges where the bang per bucket return is still good and before diminishing returns really kick in but if money was not an issue there are a few high end bits I'd love. One being top end STAX electrostatic headphones.

[peach james]

Indeed, if you get seriously bitten by the bug hi-fi can get very expensive very quickly. Personally although I would love to go up the scale to high end gear I stay in the mid ranges where the bang per bucket return is still good and before diminishing returns really kick in but if money was not an issue there are a few high end bits I'd love. One being top end STAX electrostatic headphones.

 

After working in an engine room? 

 

Actually, the worst thing that happened to my hearing had NOTHING to do with choice of job, or standing around next to our screaming Jimmy's, but an ear infection that cost me about 30 db !  I've gotten a bunch back over the last year and a 1/2, but still...

 

HiFi is definitely a money pit.  Most expensive setup I have seen probably wouldn't have gotten more than pocket money back from $20 000, that was about 20 years ago...My home kit is all old & tired by HiFi standards, a Yamaha Natural Sound amp, tape deck & 5 disk changer, then Sony 400 disk changer & speakers that are probably a poor match for the amp.  But, it does the job fine enough for me...I used to be able to hear the differences, but they are subtle once you pass the middle of the range of equipment, and I certainly wouldn't spend the amounts that I have seen mentioned for some of the crap that has been pawned off- things like "oxygen free" cables...I've got a pair of legs, pull the other one for $300/ft !

 

James

[ColinK]

A very basic question, I've seen places like Richer Sounds selling DACs but know very little about them. I'm happy with the hifi in the house. However, I also do quite a bit of listening on headphones either in the house (so I can't hear the TV in our open plan house)or while sat in my coach between jobs. For these I use my iphone as the source and have Bose noice cancelling closed back headphones. So from the above, I'm assuming you put the DAC between the iphone and headphones? So would a sensibly priced DAC make a significant difference?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 You will only be able to use a separate DAC if the iphone can produce a suitable audio bitstream as input for the DAC. No idea if iphones can do this, but the retailer should be able to advise if it is possible, and demonstrate the working combination for you. By means of which demonstration -  listening to content you enjoy* - your own ears can make the evaluation of whether there is any improvement, and if there is, whether it is enough to spring the cash for...

 

*Do you have in mind anything which doesn't sound as good on the iphone/headphone combo compared to your hifi; or even better, as heard live or the best you have heard reproduced elsewhere? A few test pieces of this sort wil sort out whether there is any gain to be had. It's important not to be led by the retailer, who will usually be keen to demo what the system can do to impress, which may not be a capability you need, and quite likely conceals deficiencies elsewhere. Some of us will remember the obsession with various forms of oriental percussion at maximum volume beloved of hifi retailers of a couple of decades past. Didn't tell you anything about the likes of subtle and quiet human voice reproduction.

[jjb1970]

After working in an engine room? 

 

Actually, the worst thing that happened to my hearing had NOTHING to do with choice of job, or standing around next to our screaming Jimmy's, but an ear infection that cost me about 30 db !  I've gotten a bunch back over the last year and a 1/2, but still...

 

HiFi is definitely a money pit.  Most expensive setup I have seen probably wouldn't have gotten more than pocket money back from $20 000, that was about 20 years ago...My home kit is all old & tired by HiFi standards, a Yamaha Natural Sound amp, tape deck & 5 disk changer, then Sony 400 disk changer & speakers that are probably a poor match for the amp.  But, it does the job fine enough for me...I used to be able to hear the differences, but they are subtle once you pass the middle of the range of equipment, and I certainly wouldn't spend the amounts that I have seen mentioned for some of the crap that has been pawned off- things like "oxygen free" cables...I've got a pair of legs, pull the other one for $300/ft !

 

James

Reaping the benefits of being religious about wearing my ear defenders

 

When I worked in power generation I had to have my hearing tested annually as part of company policy and the audiologist did tell me my hearing was way better than it had any right to be given my jobs, a testament to those fine fellows at Bilsom and Peltor me thinks.

 

In terms of hi-fi, I'd not argue that there is indeed snake oil and some of the stuff written in hi-fi magazines and on the Internet is utter drivel, that isn't the same however as dismissing hi-fi as being some sort of scam. I'd agree with what 34betweetheletterB&D has posted above, it's all about using your ears. If you listen and cannot discern any difference using an offboard DAC/Amp then clearly it isn't worth buying such a device. The only way you can decide that is to listen to some files you are familiar with and make your own decision.

 

My own personal opinion is that a decent DAC and headphone amp transforms my listening experience if using my smartphone or laptop as a music source but it is only my opinion. I travel quite a bit and the TEAC portable unit and the headphones I take with me allow me to enjoy music to within as near as makes not much difference as if using my home set up, I value that very highly.

[peach james]

Oh, I agree- there certainly can be a difference- for example, and this goes back >20 years, the lead into  "Where the Streets Have No Name" (U2), is a great piece to see what a CD does to audio- if you look at it with decent software, it has a definite start point, whereas if you record the tape back through even a cheesy input onto a computer at a higher than CD sampling rate, there is a noticeably longer intro to the song.  It's because any digital recording has a 0 volume, and a 1 volume, and an analog has a 0 volume, and a .1 volume...the CD shows it up before the static on a tape cancels the difference.  Just don't get me started on low bitrate MP3's !

 

DAC's were quite the thing even with CD players, but I can't see that much point.  If you are not starting with at least CD quality (so, FLAC or similar), then the digital gaps are probably big enough to drive a semi truck through...  If the CD player is a reasonable brand, and not a diskman meant for jogging (!) then it likely has enough quality to fool most peoples ears.  We are well into the land of chasing after the top 5%, and probably top 1% of sound quality, and basically, my take on it is that the same as any form of accuracy/repeatablity, that each decimal shift at least doubles the price.  Is a stereo that is 1% worth paying 2x one that is 10%, or even worse, one that is .1% worth 4x one that is 10% ?  (and I suspect that the increase is far faster than that...)

[jjb1970]

I think DACs have actually made good sound accessible to those on a budget. These days memory is cheap enough to store music files in lossless format or even DSD on smart devices. Connect the output to a DAC/headphone amplifier and decent headphones and you have genuinely good sound, it's a long way from listening to compressed files using the earphones supplied with these devices.

[Ron Ron Ron]

I think many people who listen to music playing off their iPhones, would be surprised and possibly amazed at what sound quality is possible from such a source.

All you have to do is use the digital output through a decent DAC and pre-amp or headphone amp.

All can be done for a reasonably modest outlay.

 

For the OP John.

For your MacBook, look at getting a (very affordable) Audioquest Dragonfly DAC.

These are tiny...the size of a medium sized USB stick.

 

Although not as good as much  more expensive "HiFI" DAC's, the sound quality is quite stunning compared with a lot of cheap solutions and offers a decent improvement over the headphone output of the MacBook.

If you've got Rega gear and if the B&W's are any good, hopefully your ears will appreciate the improvement (not always guaranteed for reasons given by others above).

 

 

.

[jpendle]

Hi All,

 

Thanks for all the replies. It kind of confirms what I thought.

 

I was frustrated by the available sales literature and reviews as the assumption was always that a DAC was a no-brainer.

There never seemed to be any analysis of when it would be good to use one, rather than use analog outputs from a computer, or Ipad

 

I think I'll have to borrow a decent DAC from my local HiFi dealer to hear how it sounds.

 

Regards,

 

John P

[jjb1970]

I have just replaced the stereo in our living room, we had a Denon micro system which my wife and kiddies used and I have my own system in the home office which is built up from separates. Despite its modest cost, I was always very impressed with the sound quality of the Denon system, especially as I partnered it with some pretty decent KEF speakers, it provided a much better quality of sound than its humble price might suggest. However, for a long time its been obvious that the wife and kiddies listen to music via web based services and have no interest in CDs or the radio (if they listen to radio it is web based radio). With that in mind I just bought a NAD D3020 digital amp and some new KEF Q150 speakers for the living room. The NAD was an open box clearance unit going cheap, it has Bluetooth and a USB port for lap tops. It even has an analogue input. The unit is tiny, the price was good (£260 for the amp) and with the KEF Q150 speakers sounds fantastic. Basically it allows you to use your various smart devices as sources for excellent quality stereo sound using a compact, very simple to use unit. Yes, you can achieve the same with active speakers, missing out the amp, and there are 100's of streaming hifi players these days but the little NAD is a brilliant, reasonably cheap solution for anybody wanting something that just sounds brilliant and is easy to use. In fact I've been thinking about whether it is time for my own system to be retired in favour of something similar.

[jjb1970]

and I certainly wouldn't spend the amounts that I have seen mentioned for some of the crap that has been pawned off- things like "oxygen free" cables...I've got a pair of legs, pull the other one for $300/ft !

 

James

You'd enjoy a review of a power chord in one of the hi-fi magazines this month. One of those chords that comes free with just about any electrical item with a plug at one end, a short bit of cable and then the connector for the kettle, TV, amplifier or whatever. £500 and with a recommended product review. I am a bit of a hi-fi enthusiast but even I hang my head in shame at being associated with nonsense like that. The reviewer waxed lyrical about the sonic benefits and regurgitated some utter tripe about how it was 1.7m long because research showed that to be the optimum length for a power chord and that longer lengths should be daisy chained. I am not sure whether these people are so delusional that they believe this nonsense or whether they're knowingly part of a snake oil racket.

Mind you this is the same magazine that has a columnist who famously advocated rewiring your house with special audiophile wiring so it would transform the sound of stereo equipment and appeared to believe it......

[eastwestdivide]

Never mind all this about power cords, has anyone got any recommendations for upgrading my ears?

[jjb1970]

Never mind all this about power cords, has anyone got any recommendations for upgrading my ears?

 

I must admit I'm half surprised that no nut job has ever suggested audiophile ear enhancement surgery, performed using special audiophile scalpels that mean it costs 2000x more than normal surgery. I really shouldn't be writing that in case somebody from a magazine like hi-fi news or stereophile reads it and gets ideas.........