ECML franchise fails .... again....

[62613]

The UK civil service is renowned for its ability to turn two sides of A4 emanating from Brussels into something the size of a phone book.

 

And we are supposed to suffer from low productivity in this country.............

Yes! Our MP, at a local party meeting, remarked that he'd seen an EU directive go into 'Whitehall' three pages long, and come out 25 pages long at the other!

[rockershovel]

Not just railways; most companies that ran apprenticeship schemes discontinued them in the 1980s; after all, we weren't going to need engineers and scientists in a service-led economy, were we? Besides paying the costs of apprenticeships affected the bottom line; and 'If we need more staff, we can always poach them from another company/ abroad can't we?

It also has the great perceived merit of handing control of the company to people who don’t actually know how it works. This has the enormous advantage of eliminating the tiresome engineers, who keep telling you that if you don’t spend on R&D, you will be overtaken by people who do...

[royaloak]

The UK civil service is renowned for its ability to turn two sides of A4 emanating from Brussels into something the size of a phone book.

 

And we are supposed to suffer from low productivity in this country.............

We never seem to suffer from low production of cow manure (posh name) in this Country, in fact there are quite a few sectors which produce several million tonnes of it a year.

[D854_Tiger]

Yes! Our MP, at a local party meeting, remarked that he'd seen an EU directive go into 'Whitehall' three pages long, and come out 25 pages long at the other!

 

Then I have seen those same directives go into the civil services of certain other EU nations, that shall remain nameless, and then go straight into the waste paper bin.

 

All whilst they castigated us for complaining about them, not being good Europeans and not respecting what is perceived to be necessary for the wider good.

 

Not for little reason have some EU nations in the past sometimes been described as not having laws, only suggestions.

[enginelane]

Interesting quote

[D854_Tiger]

Interesting quote

 

According to Branson, when he first approached Inter City about running some of their trains, someone left the office intercom switched on at their BR meeting and a senior BR exec was overheard, from outside of the room, to say, "That ****** is never going to be allowed anywhere near my railway if I have anything to do with it."

[Dagworth]

Interesting quote

Does that include sueing the NHS?

 

Andi

[great central]

Interesting quote

And if you still can't do it sue the person who gave you the contract?

[Chris116]

I copy what I said in the other ECML/VTEC topic.

 

The whole problem with the franchise system is that the winners are those who have promised the most and are therefore the most likely to fail. It seems the more successful you are the less likely you are to retain a franchise and with the East Coast this latest move is the second to hand back the keys due to not making the money they expected, the third failure was not of the franchise as such but that the owners went bust due to their failings in other parts of their company. 

 

The nationalised East Coast Railway made profits but those in charge wanted it to be run by the private sector who thought they could do better and have been proved that they can't. I am not in favour of nationalising the railways as the main problems seem to come from DaFT but I do think the franchising system needs a massive overhaul. Time and again franchises that are well run and successful are given to another organisation who then make a mess of things.

 

A lot less interference from DaFT would also help with success being rewarded with extensions rather than having the system where most of the payments for a franchise are in the last three years with a get out clause just before those payments kick in.

 

Sorry if this is too political but railways have become a political football. Privatised by one party with the other screaming about how it should be run but then doing nothing while in power. Then the ones who privatised it all say the system is wrong but again avoid doing anything once back in power. Meanwhile the TOCs try to run to the rules which much of the time do not make sense.

[D854_Tiger]

I wonder how much extra leasing cost VTEC are going to have to find for those nice shiny new trains.

 

Presumably they are a lot more expensive to lease because they must be significantly more expensive to build, unless the DfT are coughing up for all their indecision.

[great central]

I wonder how much extra leasing cost VTEC are going to have to find for those nice shiny new trains.

 

Presumably they are a lot more expensive to lease because they must be significantly more expensive to build, unless the DfT are coughing up for all their indecision.

There was an article in Modern Railways a while ago, can't remember the figures but they looked astronomical to me

[Coryton]

Looking through the thread it seems that the nation that fathered the steam engine in the form that grew into a transport system capable of moving goods and passengers around a country is no longer capable of running trains, commissioning new trains or looking after its infrastructure. No longer able to quote sensible prices for commissioning new projects nor the ability to train sufficient numbers of staff to carry out projects such as electrification etc. What a sad state of affairs.

 

It's rather sad boarding a Sprinter and seeing the "Trainmakers to the World" logo on the step.

 

Yes I know that 'foreign' trains in the UK have lots of British made bits as do trains overseas.

 

But it's not quite the same.

[Coryton]

I wonder how much extra leasing cost VTEC are going to have to find for those nice shiny new trains.

 

Presumably they are a lot more expensive to lease because they must be significantly more expensive to build, unless the DfT are coughing up for all their indecision.

 

Well presumably the ITT required them to lease the IETs once available so the costs must have been known and priced into the bid.

[Bomag]

The UK civil service is renowned for its ability to turn two sides of A4 emanating from Brussels into something the size of a phone book.

 

And we are supposed to suffer from low productivity in this country.............

 

I think you will find that it is the treasury solicitors who are renown for doing this. Although in many cases it helps in that the resulting legislation is less likely to be full of the wholes that suppliers can take you to court on. The problem is that after about 6 months half of them seem to disappear to the private sector (and shed loads of cash) having got the required minimum experience for their CVs, (the rest may be staying for the gongs) so there are often discontinuities.

[Coryton]

I think you will find that it is the treasury solicitors who are renown for doing this. Although in many cases it helps in that the resulting legislation is less likely to be full of the wholes that suppliers can take you to court on. The problem is that after about 6 months half of them seem to disappear to the private sector (and shed loads of cash) having got the required minimum experience for their CVs, (the rest may be staying for the gongs) so there are often discontinuities.

 

There's also the ones who - for various reasons - would find it hard to work in the private sector.

[Titan]

It's rather sad boarding a Sprinter and seeing the "Trainmakers to the World" logo on the step.

 

Yes I know that 'foreign' trains in the UK have lots of British made bits as do trains overseas.

 

But it's not quite the same.

 

Not been on the London Underground recently I take it?

[Coryton]

Not been on the London Underground recently I take it?

 

Only briefly.

 

Care to expand on that?

[Fat Controller]

Only briefly.

 

Care to expand on that?

There are a lot of new trains, built in Derby (albeit by a company of Canadian origin). Cross-Rail will similarly have a large number of Derby-built trains.

Edited December 3, 2017 by Fat Controller

[Ron Ron Ron]

Not mentioned anywhere here so far...

 

In just over 2 years, VTEC have already paid £525 million in premiums payments.

 

That's already half of what DOR returned in just over 5 years.

 

The report say that in the first 2 years of operation, the premium payments were running at 30% above the amount of money that DOR returned to the state.

 

However, at the current rate, VTEC would fall £1.5 billion short of its commitments, by 2023.

With falling profitability, even that shortfall is looking tenuous.

 

 

.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Ron Ron Ron

[The Stationmaster]

Not sure what you mean by ATOC tickets, but a quick look at the Grand Central ticket booking site suggests that - as I had thought - they do accept "any permitted" tickets (given that they offer to sell them for their services). Some years ago I used an "any permitted" ticket on Hull trains and I planned (but then never made) a journey from London to Aberdeen partly with Grand Central on a saver.

 

I was under the impression that open access operators had to accept any operator tickets - and if they don't surely "any permitted" tickets for any route that could involve an open access operator would have to specify something like "not Grand Central or Hull trains", or maybe it would be OK if there were very clear warnings on stations and trains that these are not normal trains (which is something I've never seen).

 

(Added:) I wonder who is going to buy an advance first class single at £87.10 when there is a walk-up fare of £84.70 valid on the same train? (Both Grand Central only tickets...) Maybe this is where Hattons got their second-hand-is-more-than-new pricing scheme from?

 

The only difference I'm aware of is that under their original ownership Grand Central would not accept any sort of free passes (and presumably Privs?) but Hull Trains have always accepted them.  In addition from what I had seen at York - again under their original ownership - a member of Grand Central staff was checking entraining passengers' tickets on the platform before the train ran in and 'standing guard' should anyone else wish to join after the train arrived.  At that time Grand Central was not a member of ATOC according to what I was told by its then General Manager, the late Tom Clift.

 

Obviously things can change as time passes.

[The Stationmaster]

 

I copy what I said in the other ECML/VTEC topic.

 

The whole problem with the franchise system is that the winners are those who have promised the most and are therefore the most likely to fail. It seems the more successful you are the less likely you are to retain a franchise and with the East Coast this latest move is the second to hand back the keys due to not making the money they expected, the third failure was not of the franchise as such but that the owners went bust due to their failings in other parts of their company. 

 

The nationalised East Coast Railway made profits but those in charge wanted it to be run by the private sector who thought they could do better and have been proved that they can't. I am not in favour of nationalising the railways as the main problems seem to come from DaFT but I do think the franchising system needs a massive overhaul. Time and again franchises that are well run and successful are given to another organisation who then make a mess of things.

 

A lot less interference from DaFT would also help with success being rewarded with extensions rather than having the system where most of the payments for a franchise are in the last three years with a get out clause just before those payments kick in.

 

Sorry if this is too political but railways have become a political football. Privatised by one party with the other screaming about how it should be run but then doing nothing while in power. Then the ones who privatised it all say the system is wrong but again avoid doing anything once back in power. Meanwhile the TOCs try to run to the rules which much of the time do not make sense.

 

 

I don't think it's so much to do with the bids as it is to do with those receiving and reviewing them before making a decision - Govt and its various departments have long been far keener on the words 'price' and 'cost' than they have on 'value' or even 'value for money'.

 

The only things which are really wrong with the franchise system are that the franchise periods are too short, the way DafT judge bids seems to be heavily skewed towards cost rather than value, and DafT and the politicos can resist forever messing about with the shape and extent of franchises purely to show that they're being seen to do something (usually something completely irrelevant when it comes to the practicality of running a railway).  The biggest mistake any politicos have made was doing away with the independent Franchising Director and never forget why they did it - because he (and the Regulator) was too independent (of the Civil Service and DafT, let alone the politcos).

 

PS I joined the railway industry full time in 1966 and if you think it has become a political football you're missing out on many years of history because it had been in that state before I was even born let alone working in it .  Back in the early 1980s I was instrumental in taking action which we knew would almost inevitably lead to an unofficial strike (it did) - before I was authorised to do what I did it had not only been approved by Regional management and the BRB but had to be approved by the relevant Minister; just so I could send somebody home for refusing to do part of his job.  Mind you on the bright side it did at least allow me to add passenger (train) shunting to my CV. 

Edited December 2, 2017 by The Stationmaster

[Coryton]

There a lot of new trains, built in Derby (albeit by a company of Canadian origin). Cross-Rail will similarly have a large number of Derby-built trains.

 

OK - and Hitachi is assembling trains in the UK. Neither Hitachi nor Bombardier are British companies though.

 

How about design? Are the Derby-built trains also designed in the UK? Or is the UK work just "build-to-print"? To me that does make a difference. There's a difference between "Train makers to the world" and "Proudly built in the UK to a foreign design for a foreign company".

[jjb1970]

Not mentioned anywhere here so far...

 

In just over 2 years, VTEC have already paid £525 million in premiums payments.

 

That's already half of what DOR returned in just over 5 years.

 

The report say that in the first 2 years of operation, the premium payments were running at 30% above the amount of money that DOR returned to the state.

 

However, at the current rate, VTEC would fall £1.5 billion short of its commitments, by 2023.

With falling profitability, even that shortfall is looking tenuous.

 

 

.

Gentlemen, please! Get with the program and stop muddying the water with meaningless facts!

We all know that if DoR was in charge they'd have paid a premium of over one trillion pounds in the same period, each train would have an infinite number of seats and ticket prices would be capped at 25p. Not only that, they would provide free University level education to those whose intelligence stops short of understanding how seats work.

[159220]

I’ve just seen that Vtec (a joint venture between Virgin and Stagecoach, dear me, what a combination) are being allowed to walk away from the ECML franchise, before making any real investment.

 

“Azuma” is, presumably, Japanese for “no such thing”

 

 

Hmm. Stagecoach has invested heavily in the franchise up front. Seeing huge 'under the hood' investment in the HST power cars and class 91s, after years of under investment from DOR. We have also seen the complete internal refurbishment. 

 

The second part of investment is the IEP, which is actually a DfT lead idea. Not Stagecoach. The DfT promised infrastructure and Stagecoach bid on that infrastructure being available for the IEP to be delivered. DfT have failed. 

 

What amuses me, why does the public not get it. The DfT makes ALL the decisions, the private partners bid on what the DfT demands. About time the system is changed and new franchise system places well away from the DfT! 

[Coryton]

The second part of investment is the IEP, which is actually a DfT lead idea. Not Stagecoach. The DfT promised infrastructure and Stagecoach bid on that infrastructure being available for the IEP to be delivered. DfT have failed. 

 

 

Although if you went by the publicity, you'd think that the "Azuma"s were all Virgin's idea.