Southern/BR CCTS

[francoes]

Hi

This is the first post i have put on here so hope i am in the right place.

This post will lead to a lot of questions asked by me regarding motive power, tpos and passenger stock.

But firstly. 

I am in the process of building the parkside southern cct cat no pc47 br plywood variant.(I also have the pc39,pc34 and ratio van b)

I have added more detail to the kit and have omitted some parts due to my period modeled.

For example under frame detailing added, grab rails and steps and roof ventilators removed.

I have 6 of these kits all at painting stage.I am going to say that i am aiming for a period no later than 1982 and no earlier than 1978

I am drawing reference from cheona-platform 5 coaching stock 1979,1980, br general parcels stock and also paul bartletts photos.

I am at the point of giving the above mentioned stock numbers.

I have come across 2 differences within the same CCT.Thats NOV or NQV.

Am i right in assuming O relates to no heating and Q relates to steam piped & electric heating.

This maybe a pretty straight forward question for someone but the coaching stock book 1979 does not show as much info in the notes as 1980.

Anyway thanks for reading

 

 

  

[Rivercider]

I have the BR 2489/51 booklet dated October 1978, which shows the codes:- 

 

NO  Covered Carriage Truck

NQ  Parcels & Miscellaneous Van

 

which may not be very helpful!

 

edit - oh and welcome to the forum francoes

 

cheers

Edited December 16, 2017 by Rivercider

[francoes]

I have the BR 2489/51 booklet dated October 1978, which shows the codes:- 

 

NO  Covered Carriage Truck

NQ  Parcels & Miscellaneous Van

 

which may not be very helpful!

 

edit - oh and welcome to the forum francoes

 

cheers

Thanks

And above all thanks for the welcome.

If you do wish to part with some form of a replica of that mentioned booklet then i am only happy to receive.

More reading material for me.

Thanks again

[francoes]

Just a quick photo

At primed satge.

[brossard]

I built the Slaters 7mm kit.  As you mention added underframe detail, I thought you might like to see the underframe of mine:

 

 

I'm kind of an underframe geek so like to add this sort of detail too.  Notice the vacuum and steam pipe runs as well as the respective diameters (steam pipes are lagged).  Notice too the safety loops under the brake rodding, and safety chains at the brake yokes.

 

Here's a shot of the finished van, CCT in BR parlance but, I think, GUV for SR.  The parcels van had different ends.

 

 

Note the window bars which I made from brass strip.

 

Glad to see you're taking your kit builds a step farther, something I liked to do when I did 4mm.

 

This thread has lots of pictures of the prototype which might be of use.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/123148-sr-4-wheeled-cct/

 

 

John

Edited December 16, 2017 by brossard

[The Johnster]

The CCT (GUV on the Southern) has end doors which the PMV does not; CCT stands for Covered Carriage Truck, a term surviving from very early railway practice where vehicles were provided for the great and good to ride in their own horse drawn carriages on trains so that they didn't have to mix with the great unwashed in first class.  PMV means Parcels and Mails Van, and GUV is a General Utility Vehicle, also with end doors.  To confuse the matter, BR produced standard CCT and GUV in the mk1 range, the difference being that the CCT was a 4 wheeler and the GUV rode on bogies.

 

Broadly similar until you look a little closer is the BY, effectively a PMV lengthened to include a guard's compartment and fitted with a stove and periscopes.  B is a brake vehicle and Y denotes a 4 wheeler.  It had no end doors.

[Fat Controller]

The CCT (GUV on the Southern) has end doors which the PMV does not; CCT stands for Covered Carriage Truck, a term surviving from very early railway practice where vehicles were provided for the great and good to ride in their own horse drawn carriages on trains so that they didn't have to mix with the great unwashed in first class.  PMV means Parcels and Mails Van, and GUV is a General Utility Vehicle, also with end doors.  To confuse the matter, BR produced standard CCT and GUV in the mk1 range, the difference being that the CCT was a 4 wheeler and the GUV rode on bogies.

 

Broadly similar until you look a little closer is the BY, effectively a PMV lengthened to include a guard's compartment and fitted with a stove and periscopes.  B is a brake vehicle and Y denotes a 4 wheeler.  It had no end doors.

And to further complicate things, towards the end, some CCT had their end-doors screwed shut, becoming PMVs.

[francoes]

Thanks for input all.

 

Brossard-Thats some serious stuff-pipework is interesting.One thing i did miss and should have been able to do is the safety loops on the brake rodding.

I did want to work on the door handles and the pull bars but felt they were not too bad and that i could soon mess up my model with my poor eyesight.

Thanks for the link,i had a quick look this morning and it looks like i have some more reading to do,i did notice a reference book in one of the pics so looking into that.

 

I understand the cct-pmv-by-bogie thing,lets not forget equal plank/unequal plank and plywood sided ,its the later classification i was interested in especially drawing much info from p.bartletts photos.

Its the NOV AND NQV and also the NFV(which i believe to be the bogie b vehicle.

I take it the N refers to non passenger and the V to vacuum, its the O,Q and the F i wish to know about.

To take an example from my 1979 book

 

S1411 is under NOV(CCT) it has an asterix against it

The quotation for this is-End doors plated over at the bottom so they will not open.NQV(PMV)

So a CCT now becomes a PMV just because its doors will not open.

OK thats fine if thats the case.

 

Probably i didnt ask the question in the right way.

So,

I have come to choose running numbers for my southern/br CCT parkside kits

Plywood sided

Using P.Bs phtotos(mainly because there colour) i came across two(what i believe to be identical vehicles)One marked NQV and the other NOV.

 

Or have i answered myself above,hahaha.

And just to make it even more annoying would vehicles carrying the CCT and PMV legend still be in a formation with NOV and NQV in 1979?

 

Thanks

[francoes]

Quick photo of BOGIE B-CCT(plywood)-BY

[Fat Controller]

The various N** codes are the TOPS codes used to identify the vehicles from about 1973 onwards, in anticipation of the large-scale use of computers.

N is the general category (in this case, Non-Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock)

V indicates vacuum braking only.

The middle letter indicates the sub-type, be it four-wheel, six-wheel or bogie, fitted with end-doors, corridor-connections etc.

There is a fourth character, not usually painted on the vehicle, which further divides the sub-type.

It's quite likely that there would have been vehicles carrying old codes until they were withdrawn; parcels stock didn't receive much in the way of TLC, and were generally covered with 'road-dirt'. The only 'clean' bits were around the door handles, where people's sleeves wiped the grime away, and around the vehicle number. The dirt was such that it was often hard to tell what colour the vehicle was.

[eastwestdivide]

To add to Fat Controller's explanation above, the 2nd letter's meaning isn't consistent across categories, e.g. the C in NCV (newspaper brake) doesn't mean the same as the C in PCV (cement tank) or MCV (16T mineral), although the 3rd letter (brake type) is consistent across categories.

[SRman]

Brossard, that's some serious underframe detailing. Superb work.

Francoes, I have just yesterday started a PC47 kit myself. I am only sticking to the basic underframe detailing myself. Mine is in later BR(S) green, and I have pre-painted the sides to allow easier fitting of the window glazing. For all of my past such kits (planked versions), I have used plastic microstrip sections of two different widths to add the window bars. I have painted the interior a pale grey, although in earlier days it may have been a buff or pale brown colour.

I'll look forward to seeing your finished models.

[Steamport Southport]

The window bars and grilles are available from Roxey Mouldings.

 

http://www.roxeymouldings.co.uk/category/63/4mm-scale-etched-accessories-by-roxey-mouldings/

 

 

 

Jason

[Rivercider]

Thanks for input all.

 

I understand the cct-pmv-by-bogie thing,lets not forget equal plank/unequal plank and plywood sided ,its the later classification i was interested in especially drawing much info from p.bartletts photos.

Its the NOV AND NQV and also the NFV(which i believe to be the bogie b vehicle.

I take it the N refers to non passenger and the V to vacuum, its the O,Q and the F i wish to know about.

To take an example from my 1979 book

 

S1411 is under NOV(CCT) it has an asterix against it

The quotation for this is-End doors plated over at the bottom so they will not open.NQV(PMV)

So a CCT now becomes a PMV just because its doors will not open.

OK thats fine if thats the case.

 

Probably i didnt ask the question in the right way.

So,

I have come to choose running numbers for my southern/br CCT parkside kits

Plywood sided

Using P.Bs phtotos(mainly because there colour) i came across two(what i believe to be identical vehicles)One marked NQV and the other NOV.

 

Or have i answered myself above,hahaha.

And just to make it even more annoying would vehicles carrying the CCT and PMV legend still be in a formation with NOV and NQV in 1979?

 

Thanks

Hi francoes,

 

I had never previously given any thought to NOV/NQV conundrum, but the plating over of the doors to change a CCT to a PMV (NOV to NQV) makes sense.

 

TOPS codes were introduced from 1973, though it took some time for all vehicles to be stencilled with them. 

As has been explained the first letter of the TOPS vehicle code (eg Nxx) indicates the general group, in this case N = Non-Passenger Carrying Vehicles.

The third letter ( eg xxV) V indicates the brake type, in this case vacuum, other common brake types are A = air, and X = dual braked vacuum/air.

The full list of Non-Passenger Carrying Parcels codes as shown in BR2489/51 from 1978 is:-

 

NA  Brake Van Bogie Gangway

NB  Brake Van Brute

NC  Brake Van News

ND  Brake Van Gangway dual heated 90mph

NE  Brake Van Gangway 100mph

NF  Brake Van Bogie Non Gangway

NG  Brake Van Stove Gangway 6 wheel

NH  Brake Van 4 wheel

NI   General Utility Van, Steam Pipe

NJ  General Utility Van, Elec. wire

NK  General Utility Van Brute

NL  General Utility Van  News

NM  Syphon G

NN  Syphon G News

NO  Covered Carriage Truck

NP  Covered Carriage Truck Brute

NQ  Parcels & Miscellaneous Van

NR  Special Parcels Van - ex fish

NS  Post Office Sorting Van

NT  Post Office Storage Van

NU  Post Office Brake Van

NV  Motor Car Van 2 tier

NX  General Utility Van Motorail

NY  Exhibition Van

 

cheers

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks for input all.

 

Brossard-Thats some serious stuff-pipework is interesting.One thing i did miss and should have been able to do is the safety loops on the brake rodding.

I did want to work on the door handles and the pull bars but felt they were not too bad and that i could soon mess up my model with my poor eyesight.

Thanks for the link,i had a quick look this morning and it looks like i have some more reading to do,i did notice a reference book in one of the pics so looking into that.

 

I understand the cct-pmv-by-bogie thing,lets not forget equal plank/unequal plank and plywood sided ,its the later classification i was interested in especially drawing much info from p.bartletts photos.

Its the NOV AND NQV and also the NFV(which i believe to be the bogie b vehicle.

I take it the N refers to non passenger and the V to vacuum, its the O,Q and the F i wish to know about.

To take an example from my 1979 book

 

S1411 is under NOV(CCT) it has an asterix against it

The quotation for this is-End doors plated over at the bottom so they will not open.NQV(PMV)

So a CCT now becomes a PMV just because its doors will not open.

OK thats fine if thats the case.

 

Probably i didnt ask the question in the right way.

So,

I have come to choose running numbers for my southern/br CCT parkside kits

Plywood sided

Using P.Bs phtotos(mainly because there colour) i came across two(what i believe to be identical vehicles)One marked NQV and the other NOV.

 

Or have i answered myself above,hahaha.

And just to make it even more annoying would vehicles carrying the CCT and PMV legend still be in a formation with NOV and NQV in 1979?

 

Thanks

The $64,000 question is, how widespread was the practice of sealing up the end doors on CCTs?

 

As you surmise, doing so makes them, in practical terms, the same as a PMV so the codes would be altered to match. By 1979, I'd expect the Nxx codes to be pretty much universal on anything painted blue, Part of the reason for the Nxx coding was to keep such vehicles on Newspaper diagrams so would expect any vans so employed but not so marked to be very unusual.

 

Running unaltered CCTs in newspaper trains is more problematic. The end doors were reasonably weatherproof but not entirely so in heavy rain and/or at speed so there would be some risk to the payload.

 

I'd hesitate to say it never happened but consider that it would have only done so when more suitable vehicles were unavailable.

 

John

Edited December 17, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[francoes]

Brilliant

Thanks for the input,well pleased.

The list there answers a lot for me.

 

Thanks for the roxey window bars,i do have these,Im in the process of painting now.

Could do with a reference to lamp irons/brackets!!!!!!!

 

Thanks again

 

Next up the siphon/ETH.

Expect questions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[francoes]

Sorry back again

 

I have been looking for brass etched lamp brackets for the SR/BR CCT/PMV but cannot find anything.Does anyone have a reference/idea to a producer/supplier?

 

Thanks