plasticbasher Posted December 17, 2017 Share Posted December 17, 2017 Hi All, A generic question prompted by curiosity rather than urgent need. I have been doing a little servicing of some Mainline and Bachmann split chassis steam-outline loco's this evening. These loco's, more than many others, really suffer from wear once the "mileage" increases. The chassis block and (chrome plated) stub axles both seem to be fine until the moment they reach a point of no return, where they will forevermore wear at pretty aggressive rates. I have several now and the better runners are very definitely the ones that have seen least use. The worst runner (a Bachmann LMS 460 that probably never saw a single drop of lubricant after leaving the factory, but seemingly also has a few 1:1 miles under it's belt) has visible wear (including some scoring) to both the axles and the axle guides in the chassis blocks. As a result the current collection is erratic and the wheels are sloppy enough in the chassis block that they seem to want to bind the valve gear. The motor is still very sweet, sadly the other key elements of the drivetrain are little more than scrap. None of my runners are afflicted by the other major failing of these chassis (the plastic axle spacers becoming loose in the stub axles), but I have replaced a couple of wheelsets where this has been an issue....but that can be fixed as one of the big spares retailers produces replacement plastic axle inserts for a number of these Mainline and Bachmann models. To date, I seem to have escaped the "swollen wheel spokes" issue that I see can also afflict these. It's the chassis blocks and stub axles eroding each other away that basically turns the chassis into nothing more than a source of spares and is the reason for this information request. Basically I'd like to keep my good runners good, and not see further deterioration in the others if possible. I have seen recommendations to use lithium or LM grease (for use on full-size cars) on YouTube for axles. However, on a split chassis loco the lubricant used on the axles needs to be electrically conductive - as far as I know, neither of those are. I did think about copper-grease, but my experience is that stuff dries over time (fine on cars as the copper component is the bit that is critical in preventing stuff seizing; probably less desirable on a delicate model train). Does anyone have any recommendations for a suitable grease or heavier oil to use on the chassis block / axle interface? TIA plasticbasher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimwal Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 It might be worth trying Peco 'Eletrolube' but don't use too much. I've found these chassis tend to get a build-up of a sort of 'scum' on the axles and bearings which inhibits pick up and needs cleaning off. I normally apply just a small amount of oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kandc_au Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 (edited) ....but that can be fixed as one of the big spares retailers produces replacement plastic axle inserts for a number of these Mainline and Bachmann models. And the big Spares Retailers is.........??? Khris Edited December 18, 2017 by kandc_au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 18, 2017 Share Posted December 18, 2017 It might be worth trying Peco 'Eletrolube' but don't use too much. I've found these chassis tend to get a build-up of a sort of 'scum' on the axles and bearings which inhibits pick up and needs cleaning off. I normally apply just a small amount of oil. A no win situation, it's oil that causes that 'orrible black mess/scum on the axles. I found the only way round it is to regularly de-grease the axles, and area of chassis they make contact with, and put a very thin film of Teflon grease which contains p.t.f.e. on the area, and make sure to repeat the process every few months. My , now few, Bachmann split-chassis tender locos are also fitted with tender pick-ups which helps no end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 19, 2017 Share Posted December 19, 2017 ... The chassis block and (chrome plated) stub axles both seem to be fine until the moment they reach a point of no return, where they will forevermore wear at pretty aggressive rates... The regular clean out of the axles with an IPA wipe and re-lube with a film of grease is the way to keep this in check. I never bought any grease, as most came with way too much inside, and as a result oily goo trickling down the sides of the keeper plate (1990s purchases). The surplus was scraped out and kept in a Kodak 35mm film canister, in sufficient quantity that it lasted beyond the life of the mechanisms. Much the same composition as the Woodland Scenics 'PTFE loaded white grease' which Bachmann retail in my opinion. It's a race between what fails first on these mechanisms, so repairs and part replacements have to be expected to keep them running as I see you are aware. Usually the ultimately life limiting factor is the plating wearing through to the pot metal on the driven wheel tyres. Although the loco can be kept going in this condition with extra pick ups, I dislike the oxide muck load this then deposits on the rails. (Stop the dirt at source, rather than go cleaning!) At that point they went on the scrap pile for recycling of any usable parts and were bid farewell forever as potential purchases, as there were by then steel axle/wiper pick up mechanism models becoming available. In heavier models of equivalent weight, the steel axle product out of China has achieved three times the life I got from the split chassis type; and these newer models are far from worn out: I suspect they will outlive me, and they do not require endless maintenance and repair attention os it is an allaround win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 Thanks All....helpful comments. Think I'll experiment on one chassis with something like LM grease (I have a tub in the garage) and report initial findings here, but after Xmas get some Electrolube and go from there. Regarding Khris's question - the big spares place that manufacture (or more technically, commission manufacture of) replacement axles and gears for Bachmann and Mainline loco's is Peters Spares. Bachmann Royal Scot / Jubilee / Patriot ones for example are: www.petersspares.com/peters-spares-ps30-Bachmann-replacement-axle-set-jubilee-scot-4mt-manor.ir. (Mods....please remove link if I'm breaking any rules by posting this). Make sure you get the ones you need...a J72 is different from a Royal Scot for example and Mainline is different from Bachmann too. At a glance they seem to do ones for all Mainline and many Bachmann split chassis loco's. Also, my advice (as their postage is a flat rate up to about £50) is do a big order periodically rather than lots of small orders. Also buy direct rather than through eBay as the prices are slightly higher on eBay (presumably to cover fees). No affiliation BTW, but I have used them a few times in the past and my feedback is very positive to date. Thanks, plasticbasher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) Over the last couple of years each of my 3 early Bachmann B1's have fallen foul of the dreaded 'muff-disease', so recently I had thought of trying to get hold of replacement parts. BUT after a re-think it's gonna be better to go for complete replacement Comet/Wizard chassis instead, with High Level gear-drive, and the best motors I can get hold of ( a word with Chris at HL will be needed !), it's the new project for the New Year until my back improves enough to start on my next layout - hopefully as the winter exits. Edited December 20, 2017 by bike2steam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium polybear Posted December 20, 2017 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2017 Remember some oils/greases won't be kind to plastic - not sure if LM falls into this category Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Remember some oils/greases won't be kind to plastic - not sure if LM falls into this category LM - which I along with many others used 'forever' in maintaining traditional all steel bicycle bearings - is definitely not plastic friendly. Troubles reported when engineered plastic components entered the world of everyday bicycles. The proble is that by the time the effect is noticed, it is pretty much all over for any plastic components exposed, even if cleaned immediately. The mobile components in the grease that cause the trouble are 'in' and doing whatever they will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 Thanks Gents, Noted about LM grease...a warning in the nick of time, given I'm on holiday today and was contemplating doing some maintenance later!! Looks like I'll wait until the New Year and get something more appropriate. Regular model oil "feels" too light for this particular application and I want to find something heavier or a true grease - the Woodland Scenics stuff sounds the way to go). Still chuckling about "muff disease".... plasticbasher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I have read on here that the aeromodellers (helicoptor division) / dronists now have a plastics compatible silicon grease available which is amazingly slippy and stays put. I'll get around to checking this out whenever my present model railway lube supplies run out, you might get there sooner... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted December 21, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 21, 2017 Eileen's Emporium Silicone Grease https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=1141&name=silicone-grease-20gr-pot&Itemid=189&category_pathway=1109 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wacol Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 Would graphite powder be suitable? I rubbed all the bearing surfaces on my one split chassis model with a lead pencil before reassembly and it has run without any problems. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 21, 2017 Author Share Posted December 21, 2017 Here's a useful page I just found: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/facilities-cleaning-maintenance/greases-oils-lubricants/lubricants/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyM7_lpKb2AIVhrftCh0VSwBVEAMYASAAEgJlXPD_BwE&cm_mmc=UK-PPC-DS3A-_-google-_-1_UK_EN_G_Lubricants_BMM-_-Lubricants%7CVariations-_-%2Blubrication&matchtype=b&gclsrc=aw.ds Also the drone forums have quite a lot of good stuff (some more relevant to model railways, some less so): https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?787168-Using-silicon-grease http://forum.flitetest.com/showthread.php?20051-Best-lubricant-for-multirotor-motors https://www.dronethusiast.com/lynh-phan-tip-drone-motor-lubricant/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 I have read on here that the aeromodellers (helicoptor division) / dronists now have a plastics compatible silicon grease available which is amazingly slippy and stays put. I'll get around to checking this out whenever my present model railway lube supplies run out, you might get there sooner... Yep, that's where I got my idea for post # 4, well aeromodellers a few years ago. https://www.dronethusiast.com/lynh-phan-tip-drone-motor-lubricant/ That's the stuff, Tri-Flow, but grease not oil, I thought the combination of Teflon and ptfe might be useful. But after a change of mind, the Comet B1 chassis I ordered from Wizard yesterday afternoon arrived this morning, not bad service for this time of year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 (edited) Still chuckling about "muff disease".... plasticbasher So did I when I first come across it ( muff), cant remember where now, but the name stuck in the memory - I think it was a US website, Shapeways I think ?? Apologies from an old man, but not quite 69 yet !!?? Edited December 21, 2017 by bike2steam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterfgf Posted December 22, 2017 Share Posted December 22, 2017 Thanks Gents, Noted about LM grease...a warning in the nick of time, given I'm on holiday today and was contemplating doing some maintenance later!! Looks like I'll wait until the New Year and get something more appropriate. Regular model oil "feels" too light for this particular application and I want to find something heavier or a true grease - the Woodland Scenics stuff sounds the way to go). Still chuckling about "muff disease".... plasticbasher I've found that Bachmann/Woodland Scenics Hob-e-Lube is pretty good and stated to be compatible with plastics. It's useful to have all four grades: Ultra-lite (viscosity 21.6 cSt): Lite (47 cSt): Medium (68 cSt) and Gear (454 cSt). The oil is supplied in a container with a long needle which makes getting at gears and axles relatively easy. I bought mine from Peter's Spares. I'm don't know about its electrical conductivity but I've used it, very sparingly, on Mainline axles and it doesn't seem to have affected their electrical pickup [the reason for that is that the lubrication can be classified as boundary - that is the peaks of the rough bits stick through the oil film which leads to wear and electrical continuity. Much higher rotational speeds would be needed for hydrodynamic (no contact) lubrication]. Whilst on the subject, I've found that the grease in the gears in many of these older models has tuned into an almost solid paste which needs to be cleaned out to get any sort of half-decent performance. I've found the Hob-e-Lube gear lubricant is good here. Peterfgf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 22, 2017 Author Share Posted December 22, 2017 Here is the grease Bike2Steam mentions: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Triflow-Synthetic-Grease-Teflon-3oz/dp/B000C15MUU/ref=pd_sim_200_1/260-8385512-8148725?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=T5QSD4BRT0SJY5NGDQ1M Ouch...that's not cheap..! But I suppose it goes a long way... plasticbasher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 (edited) The lubricant needs to be electrically conductive or there will be arcing or poor contact between stub axles and chassis. The arcing will heat and soften the axles which will loosen the wheels and lead to scoring and plating loss on the stub axles. The only cure I know of is to fit pickups from the chassis to the back of some driving wheels, I do one axle usually the rear and fit spacers to reduce the end float on that axle to reduce the amount the pickups have to move. I find the current finds its way along coupling rods when the wheels with pickups is out of contact with the rails and the performance while no better than freshly a cleaned chassis does not degrade anything like as quickly. One old Mainline 03 chassis with my mods replaced a failed Bachmann chassis temporarily about 20 years ago and is still grinding along happily today. Split axle pick up is a good idea but really needs steel stub axles and Brass or Bronze bushes. Edited December 23, 2017 by DavidCBroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Here is the grease Bike2Steam mentions: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Triflow-Synthetic-Grease-Teflon-3oz/dp/B000C15MUU/ref=pd_sim_200_1/260-8385512-8148725?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=T5QSD4BRT0SJY5NGDQ1M Ouch...that's not cheap..! But I suppose it goes a long way... plasticbasher Last time I bought 3oz it was in a plastic tub not a tube, that was about 25 years ago with just about 10% left. I use it very sparingly, and have a collection of over 100 locos!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeoffAlan Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 Some of my N gauge fleet, including split chassis models, have similar problems. I've recently been using graphite powder in all the main bearings. You don't want to get too much in or it'll short out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted December 23, 2017 Share Posted December 23, 2017 (edited) I've recently been using graphite powder in all the main bearings. Strange ! I always thought graphite powder was very finely abrasive ?? I'm sure many decades ago I used to use it for 'lapping-in' vehicle valve seats ???? Edited December 23, 2017 by bike2steam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 Strange ! I always thought graphite powder was very finely abrasive ?? I'm sure many decades ago I used to use it for 'lapping-in' vehicle valve seats ???? Well that piqued my interest..! I've occasionally lapped valve seats too, albeit in the past decade or so, and didn't think the paste was graphite based. So I googled out of curiosity. Graphite powder is not abrasive as the carbon is in sheets (ie. graphite) not crystals (ie. diamond): https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/2673/is-graphite-lubricant-safe-for-metal-parts Valve lapping paste is abrasive - apparently the most common abrasives used are Silicon Carbide, White Aluminum Oxide, Boron Carbide, Garnet or Diamond (per http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/283159.html) - here's a link to the constituents of one brand: http://www.newmantools.com/clover.htm All the valve lapping compound I've ever used is very dark grey; not sure if that means graphite is present in the grease they use as a carrier (haven't been able to find that). Cheers, plasticbasher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticbasher Posted December 24, 2017 Author Share Posted December 24, 2017 The lubricant needs to be electrically conductive or there will be arcing or poor contact between stub axles and chassis. The arcing will heat and soften the axles which will loosen the wheels and lead to scoring and plating loss on the stub axles. The only cure I know of is to fit pickups from the chassis to the back of some driving wheels........ Makes sense to me and a very good idea...might look to copy that myself. Thanks, plasticbasher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laurenceb Posted December 25, 2017 Share Posted December 25, 2017 KD's Grease Em is graphite powder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now