Engineers trains returning from possessions

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Back in the late 1970s/early 1980s I was in Bristol TOPS, we produced the TOPS train lists 

for weekend engineering trains. Our office was generally single manned at weekends

but there was an additional 08.00-16.00 post on Saturday to assist in producing the engineering train lists.

Bristol East Depot was the main yard that handled some materials but also formed up engineering trans.

Generally there were about 10-12 trains booked to depart mostly from late Saturday afternoon through to Sunday morning. When there were larger engineering blockades in the winter there might be 14-16 trains to go out.

Back then it was quite rare for trains to be top and tailed with a loco each end.

 

cheers

Top and tail working was very much frowned on for a good many years being regarded very much as assistant engine working anf d therefore only permitted where assistance in rear was permitted.  By the end of the '80s/early '90s it was starting to be accepted for freight/engineering trains and on teh Western the rear loco was shown as 'ANR' (Attached Not Required).  

 

In the privatised era in particular but already moving that way after 1992 it became generally established as there were sufficient locos to do it but most importantly it saved on paying for shunting staff.  As it was becoming established for other reasons it was no doubt seen as just as easy to do on engineering sites because compared with the sort of turnover loco working explained by 'Western Aviator' and 'WillCav' many folk saw it as easier and it reduced movements in the possession.  But if you were short of locos the turnover system made a lot of sense (It is more economic that top and tail working but that does mean more movements).

[The Pilotman]

To give some idea of train workings in connection with an engineering possession, the following is the train plan for a typical possession that took place in April 1994. The possession was of lines 1 & 2 and the main lines from Portobello Junction (between Paddington and Old Oak Common) to Southall East Junction from 2340 Friday until 0540 Monday, April 8-11th. The relief lines were also closed in the early hours of the Sunday morning. There were seven separate worksites but all of the trains were required for traxcavation and re-sleepering of 37 chains of the up main line at Acton. This information came from the engineering notice for the Reading area issued on March 29th 1994, the first such publication produced under the umbrella of Railtrack. Of all the possessions in the notice, this one had the most trains involved. I hope it's of some interest.

 

7Z20 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 2045 (Fri), run light to Reading West Junction Yard, attach 7Z20 sleeper train, haul to site on up main, detach rear portion, haul remainder to site on up main and stable. Loco run light to Acton via Portobello and stable. No relief required.

 

7Z22 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 2300 (Fri), run light to Reading West Junction Yard, attach 7Z22 empties, haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to site on down main and work as required (w.a.r.). On completion at approx. 0800 (Sat), haul to Reading West Junction Yard and stable. Loco then attach 7Z28 ballast train, haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to site on down main and w.a.r. On completion at approx. 2130 (Sat), haul to Didcot and stable. Relief required ex Acton at 0500, 1100 and 1700 (Sat), to be conveyed to site by taxi.

 

6Z24 - 3 x Class 37 locos and 1 x trainman to depart Didcot at 0400 (Sat), run light to Didcot Yard, attach 6Z24 empties, haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to site on down main and w.a.r. On completion at approx. 1430 (Sat), haul to Didcot and stable. Relief required ex Didcot at 1000 (Sat), to be conveyed to site by taxi.

 

7Z26 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 0815 (Sat), run light to Reading West Junction Yard, attach 7Z26 ballast train, haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to site on down main and w.a.r. On completion at approx. 1830 (Sat), haul to Didcot Yard and stable. Relief required ex Acton at 1400 (Sat).

 

0Z20 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 0830 (Sun), run light to site on up main via Portobello Junction and attach to London end portion of 7Z20, haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to site on down main, loco then reform with Bristol end of 7Z20 via Acton West Junction, then haul to Reading West Junction Yard and stable. No relief required.

 

7Z30 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 0915 (Sun), run light to Reading West Junction Yard, attach 7Z30 ballast train, haul to site on up main and w.a.r. On completion at approx. 1530 (Sun), haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to Reading West Junction Yard and stable. Relief required ex Acton at 1500 (Sun), to be conveyed to site by taxi.

 

7Z32 - Class 47 loco and trainman to depart Acton at 1015 (Sun), run light to Reading West Junction Yard, attach 7Z32 ballast train, haul to site on up main and w.a.r. On completion at approx. 2100 (Sun), haul to Royal Oak, run round, haul to Reading West Junction Yard and stable. Relief required ex Acton at 1630 (Sun), to be conveyed to site by taxi.

 

PTMs stable Southall before/Reading after work.

[Rugd1022]

We still use topping and tailing and loco cascading in worksites today - when this is part of the planned operation it is also mentioned in our train crew diagrams, for example you might start the job by relieving 6Y77 on site, and half way through the shift you could be booked to 'detach front loco and attached to 6Y78', you would then either stay on that loco until relieved (or perhaps taking it off site and back to Toton or Bescot) or step onto another loco on another train within the worksite. It's when it all goes to pot that it gets confusing, with drivers being in the wrong place or running out of hours etc...! I remember one occasion not so long back during a big job at Bletchley where there were supposed to be four of us on site working four trains, but a cock up in rostering and one driver going sick meant that only two of us were there when required. Me and the other driver ended up cascading ourselves from one train to another to keep the job moving until our respective relief showed up. Between us we did a hell of a lot of walking that night. Luckily the other driver only lives a mile from Bletchley station so it worked out rather nicely for him.

Edited December 1, 2020 by Rugd1022

[Edwin_m]

53 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

We still use topping and tailing and loco cascading in worksites today - when this is part of the planned operation it is also mentioned in our train crew diagrams, for example you might start the job by relieving 6Y77 on site, and half way through the shift you could be booked to 'detach front loco and attached to 6Y78', you would then either stay on that loco until relieved (or perhaps taking it off site and back to Toton or Bescot) or step onto another loco on another train within the worksite. It's when it all goes to pot that it gets confusing, with drivers being in the wrong place or running out of hours etc...! I remember one occasion not so long back during a big job at Bletchley where there were supposed to be four of us on site working four trains, but a cock up in rostering and one driver going sick meant that only two of us were there when required. Me and the other driver ended up cascading ourselves from one train to another to keep the job moving until our respective relief showed up. Between us we did a hell of a lot of walking that night. Luckily the other driver only lives a mile from Bletchley station so it worked out rather nicely for him.

I think one of the high-profile overruns a few years ago was because they were one driver short at the start, so borrowed the driver off the next train, and so on until they ended up with no driver for the last one.  

[Trog]

Soon after privatisation EWS tried to save money by only having one guard on a site, the trains running to site driver only. As I understood it the rules then only requiring the train to have a guard on it when actually in an Engineers work site. This was hugely disruptive to the Engineers as if the guard was unavailable your whole job ground to a halt.

 

One Saturday night a train I needed straight away, came up to the marker board at the end of the site I was working on. The driver then tells me that he can not come onto the work site until we can find the guard, who was nowhere to be seen. After a quick bit of thinking I asked the driver if he agreed that the positioning of the marker boards was a matter to be agreed between the Engineering Supervisor EIC and the Person in Charge of the Possession PIC, which he did. So I rang the PIC and shortend my work site on the road next to the job so the site started about 20 yards past the job, and moved the marker board to suit. The driver was then asked to move up to the marker board. Whereupon I rang the PIC again and asked to reinstate the site to its original length. With the train now in position and in the restored worksite, we were able to start digging and the job was able to continue.

 

I had mixed feelings about this pleased that I had come up with a cunning plan to get the job done, but uneasy that I was facilitating EWS robbing their guards of overtime. Although I don't think EWS would have cared if the job had failed, as providing the trains again on another weekend would just have given them more profit.

 

I explained what I had done in the office Monday morning, and presumably as a result when I arrived on site for a Sunday shift the following Week-end I was treated to the sight of one of my colleagues trudging down the job carrying a marker board followed by a spoil train driven by a rather unimpressed looking driver. 

[dp123]

On 01/12/2020 at 11:03, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

In the privatised era in particular but already moving that way after 1992 it became generally established as there were sufficient locos to do it but most importantly it saved on paying for shunting staff.  As it was becoming established for other reasons it was no doubt seen as just as easy to do on engineering sites because compared with the sort of turnover loco working explained by 'Western Aviator' and 'WillCav' many folk saw it as easier and it reduced movements in the possession.  But if you were short of locos the turnover system made a lot of sense (It is more economic that top and tail working but that does mean more movements).

 

Turning over/cascading now is generally determined by how we're to get the trains out of the possession - generally if they're to go out the same way they came in (dead end lines, possession/worksite arrangements etc). The headache comes with resourcing the moves, as using Company A's shunters on Company B's train can be a pain in the backside if that's all that's available. The smart move is to a) plan whole site shunters from the start, or b) use one haulier. Not always feasible as there are only finite resources to go around. At the weekend we can usually find all the locos we want, but not the manpower. The site will ask for shunters for the window of time in which they plan to move the engines around (to stretch those limited shunters at the weekend, they'll be booked to more than one site), so running ahead or behind time leads to it's own problems. On a badly overrunning site with drivers and shunters out of hours, three or four different hauliers, different classes of locos scattered all over the shop is.....a challenge. I once had to divert all booked drivers for a site that had finished early and got shot of its trains to one that was absolutely tanking on Sunday afternoon, which made me awfully popular with the blokes who thought they had a Sunday afternoon off. Nobody who turned up ended up working their own company trains back. Needs must.

 

Stepping up drivers (moving drivers to the train ahead of their diagrammed train in the plan) is handy, but you'll end up with an unmanned train somewhere. The trick is to do it in a way to buy enough time to track a driver down for that last train, often taxiing the first man away *back* to site. Goodwill and a good working relationship with your FOCs goes a *looooong* way.

 

 

[Going2theDogs]

Hi All,

Looking at the Hornby MK1 ballast cleaner staff coaches in olive livery (R40006, 7 & 8).

Would these of run together or used individually on specific trains.

I have visited Paul Bartlett’s excellent site but this just shows images of the individual coaches.

There is also some great information above about the various wagon types but I can not see an answer to this question.

Looking forward to your responses & of course any photographic evidence would be great to see as well.

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Going2theDogs

[The Pilotman]

19 hours ago, Going2theDogs said:

Hi All,

Looking at the Hornby MK1 ballast cleaner staff coaches in olive livery (R40006, 7 & 8).

Would these of run together or used individually on specific trains.

I have visited Paul Bartlett’s excellent site but this just shows images of the individual coaches.

There is also some great information above about the various wagon types but I can not see an answer to this question.

Looking forward to your responses & of course any photographic evidence would be great to see as well.

 

I can only comment on the WR for the period from the late 80s to the early 00s but I can’t remember seeing any engineers trains with more than one “staff” coach. HTH.

[Rivercider]

Like The Pilotman I knew the WR in the late 1970s and 1980s. I would agree that an engineering train

working in a possession would be unlikely to have more than one piece of on-track plant, and therefore only one staff coach. However a midweek transit move might include more than one staff coach, these might take place on a vacuum braked wagon load freight service, or an engineers midweek train.

 

 

At Gloucester 37189 runs through the station with a very mixed formation from the Severn Tunnel Junction direction, engineering equipment is formed ahead of freight stock and private owner freight vehicles, 10/7/85

 

Edit - I have just found another midweek freight train with more than one staff coach,

 

 

At Wakefield Kirkgate 31216 passes with a train including what appears to be a twin jib crane and a ballast cleaner each with a staff coach, 18/9/81

 

 

cheers.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Rivercider
tidying up and additional photo.

[Steven B]

The coaches themselves have the answer:

R40005: "with machine 76-312"

R40006: "with machine 76-316"

R40007: "To travel with machine 76-105"

 

The only train I can think of needing more than one staff vehicle is the 1980s weedkiller trains where two coaches were provided for staff use - one coach was a dormitory with the other being a kitchen/mess area. Having a staff van alongside a tool van was common - most breakdown trains and viaduct inspection units operated in this form.

 

That said, in lieu of no ballast cleaner being available to run with them, running all three together would make for a nice train!

 

Steven B.

 

 

[Philou]

I confess I hadn't looked closely at the small print on the coaches - I just wondered what the heck I was going to do with three of them! I now know - three engineering trains!

 

Can I ask for some assistance regarding the ballasting itself? Currently I'm preparing a layout and I'm at the stage of laying the 'formation' in ply and topping it with some wood-fibre based floor underlay and then finishing off with rail and ballast. The track layout at one point is 1 + 2 + 1 (up relief, up main + down main, down relief) and I've allowed for the 10' + 6' + 10'. What would have happened with the ballast pre-nationalisation and post-nationalisation? Would the ballast have been laid level across all four lines of would there have been a cess in the 10'?

 

If anyone can let me know, I'd be very grateful.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip