Formula 1 2018

[njee20]

Alonso. Fernando = Fred. Bit tenuous.

 

Great race I thought. Gutted for Bottas. Both drivers need to take responsibility for the Red Bull incident - Verstappen made two decisive moves in the braking zone, but Daniel was all in and reliant on Verstappen doing something for his move to come off, which is a very dangerous gamble, particularly given MV's own gung ho attitude to cannoning into other drivers overtaking.

 

Amused by Grosjean spearing it into the wall under SC. I find him irritating, he's very moany. Even DC commented that he's a very emotional chap, and doesn't come across cool and composed on the radio. Great drive by Leclerc, weird how Baku seems to throw up odd results - Perez, Leclerc, Stroll last year.

 

Hopefully Spain will be a good race particularly if some of the cars get new bits!

[Oldddudders]

 Gutted for Bottas. 

 

Of course - I hope we all were. Unusually I left the tv on after the flag dropped, and was appalled at that idiot presenter Steve saying he thought Valtteri had been crying. And? So what? People at the top of their field are under huge stress, and when the thing gets away from them, how do we expect them to react? Never understood why we need amateur presenters, when the likes of Coulthard are perfectly capable of interviewing and offering insight Jones - and I - have no hope of emulating. 

[njee20]

Agreed, that is a useless contribution, I don't envy Bottas's position, and it feels doubly cruel that he's lost two races through no fault of his own, particularly when he seems to have some pretty vocal critics. Classy of Hamilton to console him before taking to the podium.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Of course - I hope we all were. Unusually I left the tv on after the flag dropped, and was appalled at that idiot presenter Steve saying he thought Valtteri had been crying. And? So what? People at the top of their field are under huge stress, and when the thing gets away from them, how do we expect them to react? Never understood why we need amateur presenters, when the likes of Coulthard are perfectly capable of interviewing and offering insight Jones - and I - have no hope of emulating. 

 

Jones is simply an example of the "popular" meedja dumbing down sporting coverage to suit the casual viewer, in whom the advertisers are interested.

[ejstubbs]

New rules to be introduced 'to make overtaking easier' - coming your way in 2019, apparently.

 

Hmm, wider but less complex front wings, less aerodynamics around the brake ducts, and a bigger rear wing.  Perhaps less disruption to the air flow coming off the rear of the car?  Bigger rear wing less influenced by air flow disruption close to the ground?  Larger but simpler wings -> downforce should be roughly the same, though perhaps with some impact on top speeds which also aids overtaking especially if a following car can slipstream more effectively?  (Might even be able to get rid of DRS???)

 

Or not.

 

Edit:

 

Maybe not, then.  This report in The Guardian says that the larger rear wing will allow a bigger DRS flap 

I'm not a fan of DRS.  In terms of "making racing more exciting" I reckon it ranks just above the Formula E fanboost idea for rubbishness.  DRS is basically an admission that your formula is broken.  AFAIK no other motor sports formulae have, or feel that they need, anything like it.

Edited May 1, 2018 by ejstubbs

[57xx]

New rules to be introduced 'to make overtaking easier' - coming your way in 2019, apparently.

 

 

So their "major discovery" was what all the teams already knew? Maybe they should have done this before creating the current regs and avoid an about face on things like making the rear wing bigger again. They just don't seem to have a clue what to do.

[George Leacon]

So their "major discovery" was what all the teams already knew? Maybe they should have done this before creating the current regs and avoid an about face on things like making the rear wing bigger again. They just don't seem to have a clue what to do.

 

Things are different now. These latest changes are down to Liberty Media, and their masterstroke appointment of Ross Brawn as Director of Motorsport & Technical. He's leading a comprehensive FIA/FOM review of the future of F1 for 2021 (current contracts with the teams end in 2020), and these 2019 proposals have come from that research.

 

It's light years away from the Bernie era of short-term wheeler dealing.

[Oldddudders]

Ross Brawn adds a little to the Red Bull clash here. 

 

https://www.pitpass.com/61662/Brawn-Baku-clash-highlights-need-to-think-through-downforce-changes

[njee20]

Yes, interesting insight. I thought it was interesting how quickly (ie instantly) Ricciardo locked the fronts when he did brake prior to the collision. I'm sure partly because it was a slightly panicked stab at the pedal, but even so, there was essentially no slowing before they locked.

[Pete the Elaner]

Yes, interesting insight. I thought it was interesting how quickly (ie instantly) Ricciardo locked the fronts when he did brake prior to the collision. I'm sure partly because it was a slightly panicked stab at the pedal, but even so, there was essentially no slowing before they locked.

Anthony Davidson did an excellent piece on that Incident on Sky, highlighting the fact that Ricciardo had lost a huge amount of downforce due to being in Verstappen's turbulence, so stood no chance of stopping.

Regardless of who is to blame, we have all seem that Verstappen will always shut the door in these situations, so what will happen next time? The answer is that other drivers will give him more room & he will come out in front in future cases similar to this.

Senna & Schumacher were the same. Later in their careers, they had reputations of being 'masters' at passing...because other drivers knew they had to get out of the way or else they would crash.

[njee20]

Yes, that's exactly what Brawn's saying. It's obvious really, but that was an interesting and very visible manifestation of it.

 

I'm certainly intrigued to see how the two RB drivers are in Spain. Obviously knuckles have been rapped, but they're still a team without a clear leader, and on any one day either one of them can be the team leader, which makes team orders harder to issue, and it seems Horner isn't rushing to do that anyway.

I'm not sure MV will get to a place where drivers are just letting him through, at the end of the day if he keeps hitting other drivers (well aware he didn't do the hitting in Baku) then I think it's more likely he'll just further his reputation for being a bit of a loose cannon and being a great talent who never quite made it. Senna and Schumacher had better palmarès by the time they got that reputation I'd say, and gained notoriety for some incidents that had a decisive impact on specific races and championships, more a calculated risk of crashing - rather than just a foolhardy move which didn't stick, which seems more what Max is up to presently!

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

OTOH Verstappen has to survive uninjured long enough for the reputation obtained to pay off. It may be a lot safer now than ever before, but colliding with another car in that style will always have some hazard about it. Fortune usually favours the brave, but it doesn't come with a guarantee.

 

Regarding F1 as a 'broken' formula. I suspect the difficulty in 'winding back' to essentially negligible down force by abandoning aero entirely - thus minimal wake turbulence - is just too risky. The designers and drivers are all accustomed to aero generated downforce, and the tyre formulations are likely a long way from what would be required in a minimal downforce formula, if speeds are to be anything like maintained.

[njee20]

Yes, totally agree with that. We know too much about aerodynamics now too, with wind tunnel testing and CFD and all sorts of advanced modelling. To say to people "forget what you know" would be virtually impossible. Unless you standardise the car, but that would be rubbish. How long did A1 GP last!?

 

I think Brawn is right about trying to design in the ability for cars to follow better, rather than an all out "no more aero".

[Oldddudders]

OTOH Verstappen has to survive uninjured long enough for the reputation obtained to pay off. It may be a lot safer now than ever before, but colliding with another car in that style will always have some hazard about it. Fortune usually favours the brave, but it doesn't come with a guarantee.

 

Regarding F1 as a 'broken' formula. I suspect the difficulty in 'winding back' to essentially negligible down force by abandoning aero entirely - thus minimal wake turbulence - is just too risky. The designers and drivers are all accustomed to aero generated downforce, and the tyre formulations are likely a long way from what would be required in a minimal downforce formula, if speeds are to be anything like maintained.

 

The ridiculous undertray plank has to be in someone's sights eventually. Downforce could be increased without it. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I think Brawn is right about trying to design in the ability for cars to follow better, rather than an all out "no more aero".

Ross is a clever guy but what has he got to design with? The applicable laws of physics tell me there's nothing to use other than a very expensive dynamic adaption system on the aero components: either to actively cancel the turbulence coming off the car(s) ahead, or to maintain as much of  the aero component's efficiency as possible on the car behind when in the wake turbulence ('dirty air' in commentator baby speak) of the car ahead, or some defined combination of both. And I thought they were trying to avoid escalating the development and build cost...

 

The only 'simple, relatively cheap' way out of this hole that I can see is to progressively back down season by season on the permitted aero effect, so that all involved can relearn in stages the art of getting the cars to go round corners solely dependent on the mechanical grip of the tyres, without the extra loading by aero effect.

[ejstubbs]

Regarding F1 as a 'broken' formula. I suspect the difficulty in 'winding back' to essentially negligible down force by abandoning aero entirely - thus minimal wake turbulence - is just too risky. The designers and drivers are all accustomed to aero generated downforce, and the tyre formulations are likely a long way from what would be required in a minimal downforce formula, if speeds are to be anything like maintained.

 

I wouldn't suggest winding back to "negligible" downforce.  I doubt anyway whether current downforce is actually the most that could be technically achieved within the rules.  Downforce always comes with a drag penalty - hence DRS - so the cars are designed and adjusted to deliver an optimum balance between the two.  Martin Brundle was saying years ago that at top speed you could drive an F1 car across the ceiling because they generate more than their own weight in downforce.  (I think that would have been not long after he started commentating for ITV in 1997, so they've had 20 years of technical development since then.)

 

I'm not quite sure what point you're making about tyre formulations but I was thinking earlier today that one way to get more overtaking would be to get rid of tactical pit stops.  If you could do that then tyres would have to last the full race distance and thus be harder and less grippy.  That would make braking distances longer and give more margin for the overtaking driver to get past using skill, rather than a button in the cockpit.  That would take F1 back closer to its roots as the premier 'sprint' formula: start, drive like the clappers until the chequered flag comes out, then stop.  It was never intended to be an 'endurance' formula, which is what it feels more like sometimes these days.

 

But how could you get rid of tactical pit stops, I hear you ask?  Well, just off the top of my head: you could make it mandatory to spend at least 60 seconds stationary in the pits to eliminate any tactical advantage from pitting (and, as a worthwhile side benefit, reduce the risk of pitlane accidents).  Bad luck perhaps if you get a puncture, but it wouldn't actually stop you from whacking a set of super soft tyres on and setting out on a Mansell-at-Silverstone-in-1987 style chase.  Indeed, given that they have tyre pressure telemetry these days, you could even reduce the pitlane time penalty in the case of a genuine puncture.  But if you wear the tyres down to the canvas by taking too soft a compound and working them too hard, well that would be your decision and you'd have to live with it.  Wheel balance weight falls off, wheel nut comes loose, any other kind of mechanical failure?  Poor car preparation: again, your fault, no grace given.

 

I'm sure there could be other ways of achieving the same end result ie removing any advantage from tactical pit stops.  Knowing F1, though, even if they could be persuaded to go down that route they'd find the most convoluted and loophole-ridden way to do it!  Or maybe things really could be different now that Bernie's bolted...

[ejstubbs]

Glad that Fred got some decent points. I can’t help feeling that he has missed his golden years because of commercial decisions gone awry. Still one of the best on the track even now.

 

Now that I know who "Fred" is, I can post this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/43973625. Aerodynamics?  Who needs aerodynamics??!

 

Surprised that the car met the minimum legal weight after the race, though, if it had lost some of its ballast.  Although I suppose they could have replaced it during his inadvertent pit stop.  Otherwise, reduced weight - and/or perhaps a reduction in drag from the missing aero bits - could have helped gain some speed on the straights and explain why his lap times weren't quite as bad as they'd expected.

[njee20]

You've got a spurious full stop at the end of that link. Working link, interesting article, shame the photos couldn't accompany it.

 

Would have been really harsh to penalise him at the end of the GP for being under weight. I imagine he sought a lot of extra marbles at the end! I would guess with so much safety car they had quite a bit of fuel still on board, which would no doubt help.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I wouldn't suggest winding back to "negligible" downforce.  I doubt anyway whether current downforce is actually the most that could be technically achieved within the rules.  Downforce always comes with a drag penalty ... 

 

I'm not quite sure what point you're making about tyre formulations but I was thinking earlier today that one way to get more overtaking would be to get rid of tactical pit stops.  If you could do that then tyres would have to last the full race distance and thus be harder and less grippy.  That would make braking distances longer and give more margin for the overtaking driver to get past using skill, rather than a button in the cockpit.... 

 But leaving aero downforce in - and indeed one could achieve yet more with greater engine power to overcome the drag - means the wake turbulence is still present. With a harder less grippy tyre, that means that closing up to the car in front becomes more problematic. This is not a matter of driver skill, when the tyres start sliding due to loss of grip then driver = passenger.

 

 

...how could you get rid of tactical pit stops, I hear you ask?  Well, just off the top of my head: you could make it mandatory to spend at least 60 seconds stationary in the pits to eliminate any tactical advantage from pitting ......

 There is merit in this idea, but I would suggest a different method for the time penalty. After the pit stop - quick as may be achieved - the car then has to run for two kilometers or thereabouts on a new purpose built exit road from the pits with easy curvature, to rejoin the circuit at the current pit exit rejoin point. That should eliminate most of the 'sent away inadequate' failures from the race track, and means the car rejoins the circuit all of time penalised, with full race temperature in the tyres amd if well arranged at matching speed to the on circuit cars: improving safety by eliminating most outright failures and by giving the driver more predictable handling at matching speed to the other cars on the race circuit.

[njee20]

I think you'd struggle to fit a 2km pit exit lane within existing circuits!

[OnTheBranchline]

Yes, that's exactly what Brawn's saying. It's obvious really, but that was an interesting and very visible manifestation of it.

 

I'm certainly intrigued to see how the two RB drivers are in Spain. Obviously knuckles have been rapped, but they're still a team without a clear leader, and on any one day either one of them can be the team leader, which makes team orders harder to issue, and it seems Horner isn't rushing to do that anyway.

I'm not sure MV will get to a place where drivers are just letting him through, at the end of the day if he keeps hitting other drivers (well aware he didn't do the hitting in Baku) then I think it's more likely he'll just further his reputation for being a bit of a loose cannon and being a great talent who never quite made it. Senna and Schumacher had better palmarès by the time they got that reputation I'd say, and gained notoriety for some incidents that had a decisive impact on specific races and championships, more a calculated risk of crashing - rather than just a foolhardy move which didn't stick, which seems more what Max is up to presently!

 

It looks likely that they would prefer to blame the guy who might be leaving at the end of the year than piss off the guy who has a contract for next year.

[Gareth Collier]

Ultimately it was MV's fault. You are allowed one defensive move which MV made when DR first went right so when DR then went left MV was not allowed to block again but he did and DR had nowhere to go. Personally I think the FIA bottled it as MV has previous and they could have taken action but decided both were to blame. Don't want to upset F1's rising star.

[57xx]

Things are different now. These latest changes are down to Liberty Media, and their masterstroke appointment of Ross Brawn as Director of Motorsport & Technical. He's leading a comprehensive FIA/FOM review of the future of F1 for 2021 (current contracts with the teams end in 2020), and these 2019 proposals have come from that research.

 

It's light years away from the Bernie era of short-term wheeler dealing.

 

The owners of F1 might have changed, but the laws of aerodynamics haven't. The team's aero guys and anyone with a technical interest in the sport have known how the car's aero works and hence why it is difficult to follow and overtake. Info like this and this has been freely available for ages, long before this "amazing discovery" by the FIA.

Edited May 2, 2018 by 57xx

[Mike Storey]

The owners of F1 might have changed, but the laws of aerodynamics haven't. The team's aero guys and anyone with a technical interest in the sport have known how the car's aero works and hence why it is difficult to follow and overtake. Info like this and this has been freely available for ages, long before this "amazing discovery" by the FIA.

 

Nice. But what they (Liberty and FIA) have managed is to get everyone (apparently, so far) to agree. Ecclebum could not have cared less. That in itself, is a seriously major achievement.

[trisonic]

Of course - I hope we all were. Unusually I left the tv on after the flag dropped, and was appalled at that idiot presenter Steve saying he thought Valtteri had been crying. And? So what? People at the top of their field are under huge stress, and when the thing gets away from them, how do we expect them to react? Never understood why we need amateur presenters, when the likes of Coulthard are perfectly capable of interviewing and offering insight Jones - and I - have no hope of emulating. 

 

Regrettably with the switch to NBC from ABC we now have the SKY feed  - I understand what you have all been complaining about in Europe. I do miss David Hobbs and Steve Matchett from years past on ABC. Funny pair too...

 

Best, Pete.