LNER 'Toad B' and 'Toad E' 20T Brake Van announced

[Porcy Mane]

On this example, muck perhaps? The Year is 1954.

 

 

Maybe I should have said road dirt.

 

P

[Tom F]

Tom, this is a debate I've had with myself over many years when making models of LNER brake vans, going back to the original Tatlow "LNER Wagons" (pale blue dust jacket)

 

To my mind, in the official works photos in that book, the fixed side lamps are painted the same colour as the van bodywork.  I know we're talking about black & white photos but to my mind there is no difference in tone between the lamps and the body side, whereas there is a distinction between the body colour and the black ironwork (buffers etc.).  I don't imagine the ex LNER wagon works changed their practice in this respect after Nationalisation, but it's more difficult to tell with pictures of vans in service due to 'weathering' etc.

 

A more up to date reference however is on p.86 of Vol 3 of Geoff Kent's "The 4mm Wagon", in which the van at top left appears recently ex works and for my money, the lamp is painted the same colour as the van body, so I think Hornby have got it right.

 

Or for an on line reference see here, for example:

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerbrake

 

You might however like to think of a way of painting the lenses to look like glass (and ideally clear one side and red the other)  as they seem to have modelled them grey as well; if you think of a way I'd be interested to know as I've not really worked that out yet!

 

And depending on the period of your model, the fixed lamps seem to have been progressively removed some time after Nationalisation, and the corner lamp irons modified to carry BR standard removable side lamps instead, so that might be something else to consider .... 

 

Hope this helps!

 

 

The Toads on the above Bartlett  link the two shown on the first page carrying Lamps are not the same Grey , but a darker shade as is the ex GER Van carrying a Black lamp on the same page.

 

Thanks gents!

 

Steve, you make some good points. The Toad I'm modelling (you can't see the number so I'll use the Hornby factory number) but it's hard to see the side lamps, or if they are there. As Mick points out the lamp on view on E139712 does indeed look black. I'm modelling a Toad E circa 1961 so I might go black.

 

Regarding the lenses, I've already given some thought to that, and an ideas suggested by a friend. I'll carve the moulded lens off, and add the lenses as supplied by Modelu lamps. Alan supplies the lenses for £1 a strip if you're interested.

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product/2000/

Edited October 20, 2018 by 9793

[iak]

Well having acquired a couple of these beasties yesterday, I am very impressed.

More ammunition for the use of...

[31A]

Thanks gents!

 

Steve, you make some good points. The Toad I'm modelling (you can't see the number so I'll use the Hornby factory number) but it's hard to see the side lamps, or if they are there. As Mick points out the lamp on view on E139712 does indeed look black. I'm modelling a Toad E circa 1961 so I might go black.

 

Regarding the lenses, I've already given some thought to that, and an ideas suggested by a friend. I'll carve the moulded lens off, and add the lenses as supplied by Modelu lamps. Alan supplies the lenses for £1 a strip if you're interested.

 

https://www.modelu3d.co.uk/product/2000/

 

 

To me it looks as though the one in the picture on your layout thread isn't carrying them anyway, Tom; as might be expected by the early '60s.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/136923-cwm-prysor-bala-blaenau-ffestiniog-branch/page-19

[Tom F]

For those interested.

 

 

I presume a quick cut with a pair of cutters will do the job.

[Daddyman]

Steve Banks paints them black - and that's good enough for me.

 

Super website too, for anyone who doesn't know it: 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/188-lner-goods-brake-van-toad-e

[31A]

But the two pictures of real vans at the top of this page show what I mean:

 

https://www.steve-banks.org/modelling/186-lner-early-goods-brake-van

 

To me, the lamps look the same colour as the van body side, and different to the black painted underframes.

[Daddyman]

Mmm... compelling. But the in-service van at the bottom of the same page? 

[31A]

Mmm... compelling. But the in-service van at the bottom of the same page? 

 

 

Can't really tell - as the van is in service and is no longer clean, the distinction between brown and black paint is no longer apparent in the b&w photo.

[Porcy Mane]

If LNER practice was continued into early BR days I think the body mounted lamps probably were body coloured.

 

Although not Toad D's Mr Bartlett site shows an official Faverdale snap of Diagram 1/506 Lot 2137 B950884 unfitted Brake van Ex works in October 1950 and the sidlamp is definitely same colour as the body.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan506

 

First & second pics in the 1/506 collection.

 

The same pic also appears in Mr Kents, The 4mm Wagon (part III).

 

And then there's this. A scan of a very small part of a photograph by Tom marsh that appeared in a magazine. Diagram 1/504 lot 2136 BV. That lamp looks bauxite/brown to me. The date was given as circa 1956.

 

I've never got to the bottom of why the centre portion of the van and duckets appears to be black. Surely it can't have weathered that way? 

 

 

If anyone objects to the phot appearing here I'll remove it.

 

A lot of Ballast brakes kept their sidelamps well into the 1970's and they look to be in the main painted the same as the main body colour.

 

e.g.

https://flic.kr/p/23gzUbH

 

Even after body repaints as a quick look here seems to confirm.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/lnerballastbrake

 

P

Edited October 24, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[jwealleans]

I reckon I've read somewhere that lamps went from black to body colour under the LNER. Perhaps when they did away with them on passenger brakes? Towards the end of the 1920s?

[Daddyman]

I've never got to the bottom of why the centre portion of the van and duckets appears to be black. Surely it can't have weathered that way? 

 

Replacement planks, which are not as far down the road to decrepitude as the centre portion of the van? 

[Steamport Southport]

Replacement planks, which are not as far down the road to decrepitude as the centre portion of the van? 

 

Looks more like it's been touched up with bauxite to me. Possibly to cover up an allocation then re branded with London Midland.

 

 

 

Jason

[Porcy Mane]

Replacement planks, which are not as far down the road to decrepitude as the centre portion of the van?

 

But that wouldn't explain the squiggle of red going into the black under the label clip and as BR had been fitting lamp brackets to the outer uprights for approx. four years by then I'd have thought the lamp and its associated hatch would have been replaced at the same time as any rotted wood work?

 

Dontcha just love these railway mysteries?

 

Looks more like it's been touched up with bauxite to me. Possibly to cover up an allocation then re branded with London Midland.

 

 

 

Jason

Now there's a thought. Quite a few of the early BR Brakes had "Return to xxxx Works for Inspection before xx/xx/xxxx" brandings at that very spot but the fly in the ointment is that the London Midland branding had probably been applied from new.

Edited October 24, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[26power]

This colour view from Ernie Brack Flickr pages might be of assistance?  Lamp looks to be in body colour?  Dornoch 13/07/59:

https://flic.kr/p/21ZkPCf

[Daddyman]

 

But that wouldn't explain the squiggle of red going into the black under the label clip and as BR had been fitting lamp brackets to the outer uprights for approx. four years by then I'd have thought the lamp and its associated hatch would have been replaced at the same time as any rotted wood work?

 

Dontcha just love these railway mysteries?

 

Now there's a thought. Quite a few of the early BR Brakes had "Return to xxxx Works for Inspection before xx/xx/xxxx" brandings at that very spot but the fly in the ointment is that the London Midland branding had probably been applied from new.

Nah, there'd be no need to paint the whole side out - and your first point re lamps holds. On closer inspection the line between mucky and clean does not follow a seam between planks, but bleeds across a plank. So the only possible (?) explanation is that it was in the middle of being cleaned when the cleaner in question got distracted. 

[Porcy Mane]

So the only possible (?) explanation is that it was in the middle of being cleaned when the cleaner in question got distracted.

 

Maybe his broom head fell off mid stroke?

[Garethp8873]

Excited to see the LNER liveried versions have arrived with Hornby now I look forward to seeing these in the flesh now

[Garethp8873]

Excited to see the LNER liveried versions have arrived with Hornby now I look forward to seeing these in the flesh now

[Daddyman]

Seems that the LNER-liveried wooden-ducket version is now available... 

[Lu4472ke]

Seems that the LNER-liveried wooden-ducket version is now available...

 

 It certainly is 

 

[Daddyman]

I notice the lamps are body colour. 

 

Did I read somewhere (Steve Banks?) that the white handrails were on Dukinfield-built vans only? 

[Nile]

What other colour would they have been?

[31A]

Body colour. I’m not able to check my books at the moment but from perusing photos in the past, mainly works officials in Peter Tatlow’s LNER Wagons, I do seem to recall detecting a pattern whereby some workshops painted them white whilst others used body colour. From memory I seem to recall reaching the opinion that Doncaster used body colour but can’t remember about the others. I wonder whether white became more universal during WW2 blackout conditions, and this continued afterwards?

[Sasquatch]

I notice the lamps are body colour. 

 

Did I read somewhere (Steve Banks?) that the white handrails were on Dukinfield-built vans only? 

Yes! Painting them should be easy!! However Hornby's 140422 lamps are on the wrong ends.

 

What other colour would they have been?

Oily black no doubt!  This varies from van to van.

 

Body colour. I’m not able to check my books at the moment but from perusing photos in the past, mainly works officials in Peter Tatlow’s LNER Wagons, I do seem to recall detecting a pattern whereby some workshops painted them white whilst others used body colour. From memory I seem to recall reaching the opinion that Doncaster used body colour but can’t remember about the others. I wonder whether white became more universal during WW2 blackout conditions, and this continued afterwards?

Grey area. Handrail colour does seem to be a choice left to the builder. The only picture of one with white handrails I have is 140422 (the subject for one of the Hornby vans) in LNER wagons by Tatlow. This van was built in 1925 by Birmingham Wagon and Carriage Co. All other pictures show them in body colour, an easy fix!

 

I have seen pictures of vans in Wartime condition which also have white edges to the footboards and veranda steps albeit constituent types but that's not to say all vans were treated in this way.

 

Nice to see the correct narrow tongue & groove on 140422, this will be a nice addition to my van collection which are older Parkside kits with the wide type and sanding gear.

Hope this helps.

Regards Shaun.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Sasquatch