Retooled class 47 in 7mm scale

[47606odin]

On 09/11/2021 at 02:31, Willoughby Glen said:

Does anyone have any idea which intercity 47s had the thicker orange warning band as cannot find one with it that thick, which is odd when you see all the others have the correct width

 

 

 

 

theres 3, the line thickness varies I guess depending on who applied it as yes, there are thinner lines.

 

[47606odin]

The thicker lines above go down to about halfway to the top of the window frames like the Heljan model. It may just look worse because it’s clean 

[Blobrick]

Well the Postie dropped off a very heavy box just after 13:00 hours today.  Big job sneaking it passed the boss and up stairs to the "Guest" room

I had ordered a two tone Green, with SYWP, from a well known retailer in Sheffield.

 

 

Upon lifting the box lid, l was surprised to see the model was not attached to the normal wooden base. Instead it was nesting in a foam frame, quite tight but as l looked around the box, not tight enough. Fortunately the damage was limited to a buffer, which had snapped within the buffer shank. Initially l could not find the associated spring, but removal of the foam packing revealed the small spring trapped behind a small packing  piece. The shank has been reunited with its buffer and refitted to the buffer beam. the assembly seems to work well.

 

As for the other item l found free (left hand side of photo), l have not a clue. I have inspected the model whilst inverted and the as yet appears to be nothing missing. So if anyone can tell me where it goes l d be very grateful. Unfortunately the instruction sheet for this model does not have the usual parts list so its down to Mk1 eye ball to identify this. 

I did not that there is a large amount of detail around the bogie assembles, l suspect some of this detail will only ever be seen after a mishap!

 

The finish of the model is good, and the running qualities are as one would expect. The drive train is a little noisy on my model, but will no doubt quieten down with running.

 

It might be a trick of the afternoon light but the model does not look quiet right around the cab area. I can't put my finger on it as yet. However none the less it certainly looks like a Brush type 4, and definitely a step up from the first version 

 

I ve attached a couple of photos, which are not the best. 

These are expensive models, and as such we really should not have to get a tube of glue out where a new model arrives.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Blobrick

[43179]

Hi Blobrick  - the mystery part that's fallen off your model looks like its from the brake linkage - it sits on top of the bogie sideframes - there's one on each 'corner' of the bogie. From the looks of your photos the outer ones all seem present and correct - it may be from the inner end.

 

tfn

 

Jon  

[43179]

2 hours ago, Blobrick said:

 

 

It might be a trick of the afternoon light but the model does not look quiet right around the cab area. I can't put my finger on it as yet. However none the less it certainly looks like a Brush type 4, and definitely a step up from the first version 

 

 

The 'face' of the model is wrong - the error is  not the easiest thing to describe but hopefully a photo will help -

 

 

(sorry if this image is someones - I've had it saved for ages as a great reference shot but don't know who to credit)  basically the windcreens on a real 47 don't  sit on the same 'plane'   - if you stood on the cab roof and looked down at them, the two panes of glass form a very shallow 'V' shape relative to each other  - so the central pillar between the two panes of glass sits further forward than the outer 'pillars -  Heljan appear to have 'flattened' this area  - pushing the central pillar back - I think this is in turn making the much discussed 'ledge' below the screens look too big . Don't forget that in turn the windscreen error will then also throw out the shape of the cab roof; the leading edge - again when viewed above , will be too flat , and that in turn will throw out the profile of the roof. 

If  i was going to be a total nerd - I'd say the early twin arm wipers. as Heljan have modelled them, wont work  - both arms need to be the same length or the wiper will do some very strange things!

Jon 

[rob D2]

I see what you mean. That’s a bit poor.

[Global]

The more I look at it the worse it gets!

 

There seems to be far too much body between the ledge and top of the headcode box? Think it’s been said before but the handle across the front doesn’t look right either.

 

If the roof is too flat, is there now too much body to give a correct overall height?

[43179]

7 minutes ago, Global said:

 

If the roof is too flat, is there now too much body to give a correct overall height?

Good point, I’m not sure, but the profile of the roof looks like it’s curving  too severely around the cantrail grilles and then too flat above them - the supports for the radiator shutters give you a good indication of the arc of the roof either side of them , and they look a bit ‘bottom heavy’ if that makes sense. 
Then JLTRT/MM1 models kit has the best “Brush” shape all round in 7mm: 

Jon

[Hal Nail]

4 hours ago, 43179 said:

 if you stood on the cab roof and looked down at them, the two panes of glass form a very shallow 'V' shape relative to each other  - so the central pillar between the two panes of glass sits further forward than the outer 'pillars -  Heljan appear to have 'flattened' this area  - pushing the central pillar back

 

Here's another photo of that area - sadly I can name the total nerd who took it. I also measured the windows up as I was on a driving course but at some point over the years, Ive lost the all important fag packet: its probably hiding in the stash.

 

I've always thought the Heljan 50 has the same issue and since the sweepback contributes to the droopy look of the windows, that was partly why people raised issues with the first EP without ever picking up on that.

 

The photos of the 47 with full yellow end look much less convincing to me than the two tone which does slightly hide the windows. That's partly the 80s pop star eyeliner Heljan have applied and i think painting the insides of the windows black will help but something else didn't look quite right and now its been mentioned, I'm pretty sure it is this flatness.

 

I plumped for MM1 as well in the end when I found the photo above on Google around the time the Heljan EP pics came out.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Hal Nail

[43179]

36 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

Here's another photo of that area - sadly I can name the total nerd who took it. I also measured the windows up as I was on a driving course but at some point over the years, Ive lost the all important fag packet: its probably hiding in the stash.

 

I've always thought the Heljan 50 has the same issue and since the sweepback contributes to the droopy look of the windows, that was partly why people raised issues with the first EP without ever picking up on that..

 

 

Ah that’s a brilliant shot - it also shows to good effect how the ‘brows’ above and below the windscreen frames come into being - and again , by flattening this area they arent formed correctly on the Heljan model.
Agreed , I think the 50 has the same issue but to a lesser degree.  What’s interesting is the forthcoming 56 appears to suffer the same issue with windscreens and cab roof profile - almost as if it was “copied and pasted” 

 

Jon

Edited November 11, 2021 by 43179

[djparkins]

Well my green job arrived yesterday. At £590odd quid I'm not amused. broken buffer and bogie parts etc. No point in complaining as the replacement will probably be just the same. Seems that every time you unbox one of these RTR locos - something else falls off! IMHO they are far too heavy for a plastic bodied loco.

Edited November 12, 2021 by djparkins

[MarstonVale]

Mine too.

Replacement came and was fine.

It did make me think about going to the store and picking it up directly rather than gamble in future.

Just don't fancy the 2-3 hour round trip.

 

Paul 

[Kelvin B]

My four O Gauge Class 47's arrived this afternoon, very disappointing, all had damage with lots of parts loose in the bottom of the box. I have not rejected them as I feel like others have said 'there is no certainty that the  replacement will be any different'. I have one brake part that is missing completely. Thankfully all are good runners. Not happy with the quality on a high priced item that I borrowed money to buy!!!!!  

[neal]

Mine arrived with one cab step loose - not a big issue. One point to note is the fuel tank drain cock (on the early version) is vulnerable when handling this heavy beast. Broke one of these off when DCC fitting.

 

By the way, the wiring diagram provided in the manual has no relationship to this model (this might actually be for the class 60?).

Removing the pcb requires the ‘key’ (switch) terminals to be bridged, then the ‘common’ goes to blue, and front/rear light feeds go white/yellow. Keeping the separate fan pcb means these run beautifully on an aux 12v output.

 

Definitely not DCC friendly, but the horizontal motor/gear tower is far better than the classic Heljan vertical motor arrangement - very smooth.

 

Despite the nuances to the ledge below, and cab front windows, I like this model.

 

Neal

[uk_pm]

On 12/11/2021 at 21:01, neal said:

Mine arrived with one cab step loose - not a big issue. One point to note is the fuel tank drain cock (on the early version) is vulnerable when handling this heavy beast. Broke one of these off when DCC fitting.

 

By the way, the wiring diagram provided in the manual has no relationship to this model (this might actually be for the class 60?).

Removing the pcb requires the ‘key’ (switch) terminals to be bridged, then the ‘common’ goes to blue, and front/rear light feeds go white/yellow. Keeping the separate fan pcb means these run beautifully on an aux 12v output.

 

Definitely not DCC friendly, but the horizontal motor/gear tower is far better than the classic Heljan vertical motor arrangement - very smooth.

 

Despite the nuances to the ledge below, and cab front windows, I like this model.

 

Neal

Alas, I agree this loco is not DCC friendly.  I tried to wire in a Loksound XL decoder this afternoon and whilst the loco and the sound are working, the lights have eluded me.  I have succeeded in making the headlights and the cab interior lights work, but nothing else (and, counter-intuitively, the +ve for the headlights is black, and the -ve red).  Has anyone managed to crack the wiring code on this loco?  All assistance gratefully received.

 

 

[neal]

 

ok, here goes…working systematically remove the wires from the main pcb and set this aside. To avoid confusion I wired the relevant decoder terminals as I removed them from the board shown above.

 

1 is the common light and auxiliary +ve feed.  This would go to the blue connection on traditional decoders.

 

2-4 and 12-14 are the +ve feeds for lights, and these all go via the switches set to the underside of the chassis.  (The common supply connects to this, and the switches effectively distribute this power to the desired lights).  These wires do not need to connect to the decoder, simply connect the wires from 2 to those from 12, 3 to 13 and 4 to 14. Don’t forget the heat shrink!

 

5, 6, 15 and 16 are the directional light control returns.  If you are content for these to work on F0 and isolate them as required with the switches on the underside of the chassis, wires from 5 and 15 go to the front light decoder terminal (normally white) and from 6 and 16 to to the rear light decoder terminal (yellow).

 

If you want independent control of cab, head and tail lights via the decoder, these wires will need to be split and wired according to your desired decoder auxiliary outputs. Again the 9v battery will be useful in checking what wire controls  what.

For the Zen Buddha, connection would be as below, with relevant CV settings adjusted. For this approach there should be no need to isolate the feeds via the switches, these would all just be left ‘on’ with 2-4 and 12-14 linked as noted above.

 

My brain was hurting too much at this point so I left all lights operational on F0, and will use the switches on the chassis if I need to.

 

Track wires are correctly coloured, so wires to terminals 7, 8, 17 and 18 go ‘red and black to the track’ and connect to the relevant power terminals on the decoder. 

 

Motor wires in 9, 10, 19, 20 feed the two cans.  As normal, both motors are identical but need to run in opposite directions to avoid the bogies fighting each other.  Admit it, if you’ve done Heljan diesels before you will have got this wrong at least once!!!

 

I think 19 goes with 10 and 9 goes with 20 (but double check with a 9v battery).  
 

Again wire to the motor feeds on the decoder (orange and grey, ‘going the other way’).  I guessed which way and got it wrong (so the lights were set to the opposite ends) but with screw terminals this is an easy swap.  I should have checked the polarity of these with the battery, forward is the fan (radiator) end so check the polarity of the paired wires then wire motor +ve and -ve to relevant decoder terminals.

 

That leaves the fan output.  Retaining the fan pcb , this needs to be wired to a common +ve feed (blue),  then to an auxiliary return.  I used a purple connection on my decoder that mapped to F2, but these can normally be remapped to the desired Function key.

 

As I normally do, I desoldered the fan female connector from the main pcb, and added leads to connect to the decoder terminals such that the body (with fan and fan pcb attached) can be disconnected from the chassis and decoder easily.
 

There is another socket between fan motor and fan pcb, so you could remove the fan pcb from within the roof, and hard wire this to the decoder outputs, using the motor-pcb connector to split body from chassis (and leaving the original pcb unmolested).  But the leads are a little short for this, and the double sided holding the fan pcb to the roof is rather strong!

 

The above does leave something of a bird’s nest, but by sorting the cables as you disconnect and reconnect this can be managed (I used small cable ties).  The cable mess can be stowed below the plastic board (that supports the original pcb).  Your decoder can then be mounted above this.  I guess the mounting holes are for the recommended Loksound board, but there is plenty of room to fix another large decoder with double sided tape.  I found it easier to remove the plastic board, then slide between excess cable and decoder when connected.  Unlike some Heljan models (including latest 31 - grrr) there is plenty of slack in all of the wires such that these will not need extending, even if your decoder has all the terminals on the same ‘end’.

 

I hope this helps some people. I used a Zen Buddha which is fine for the model.  I may wire a sound-only decoder in parallel (as I have done with TTS chips for 31, 40 and 50).

 

 

Good luck, 

 

Neal

 

 

Edited November 14, 2021 by neal
Additional info

[Clarky1000]

I got my Large logo Blue one yesterday.      Looks very nice to me and there was nothing broken.

 

One interesting thing is the head-code panel 

 

Heljan supply a pair of panels with lamps and a pair with sealed beams, so that you can "pick" whichever suits your particular chosen fleet number

 

I looked at the excellent class 47 website and they all (at least up to 47441), appear to have had the lens type at No. 2 end and the sealed beam type (with black rubber seals around the lenses) at No.1 end.

 

Does anyone know why BR did this??

 

G

[uk_pm]

3 hours ago, neal said:

 

ok, here goes…

 

1 is the common light and auxiliary +ve feed.  This would go to the blue connection on traditional decoders.

 

2-4 and 12-14 are the +ve feeds for lights, and these all go via the switches set to the underside of the chassis.  (The common supply connects to this, and the switches effectively distribute this power to the desired lights).  These wires do not need to connect to the decoder, simply connect wires in 2 to 12, 3 to 13 and 4 to 14. Don’t forget the heat shrink!

 

5, 6, 15 and 16 are the directional light control returns.  If you are content for these to work on F0 and isolate them as required with the switches on the underside of the chassis, wires to 5 and 15 go to the front light decoder terminal (normally white) and 6 and 16 to to the rear light decoder terminal (yellow).

 

If you want independent control of cab, head and tail lights via the decoder, these wires will need to be split and wired according to your desired decoder auxiliary outputs. Again the 9v battery will be useful in checking what wire controls  what.

For the Zen Buddha, connection would be as below, with relevant CV settings adjusted. For this approach there should be no need to isolate the feeds via the switches, these would all just be left ‘on’ with 2-4 and 12-14 linked as noted above.

 

My brain was hurting too much at this point so I left all lights operational on F0, and will use the switches on the chassis if I need to.

 

Track wires are correctly coloured, so wires to terminals 7, 8, 17 and 18 go ‘red and black to the track’ and connect to the relevant power terminals on the decoder. 

 

Motor wires in 9, 10, 19, 20 feed the two cans.  As normal, both motors are identical but need to run in opposite directions to avoid the bogies fighting each other.  Admit it, if you’ve done Heljan diesels before you will have got this wrong at least once!!!

 

I think 19 goes with 10 and 9 goes with 20 (but double check with a 9v battery).  
 

Again wire to the motor feeds on the decoder (orange and grey, ‘going the other way’).  I guessed which way and got it wrong (so the lights were set to the opposite ends) but with screw terminals this is an easy swap.  I should have checked the polarity of these with the battery, forward is the fan (radiator) end so check the polarity of the paired wires then wire motor +ve and -ve to relevant decoder terminals.

 

That leaves the fan output.  Retaining the fan pcb , this needs to be wired to a common +ve feed (1 or 11), then to an auxiliary return.  I used a purple connection on my decoder that mapped to F3, but these can normally be remapped to the desired Function key.

 

As I normally do, I desoldered the fan female connector from the main pcb, and added leads to connect to the decoder terminals such that the body (with fan and fan pcb attached) can be disconnected from the chassis and decoder easily.
 

There is another socket between fan motor and fan pcb, so you could remove the fan pcb from within the roof, and hard wire this to the decoder outputs, using the motor-pcb connector to split body from chassis (and leaving the original pcb unmolested).  But the leads are a little short for this, and the double sided holding the fan pcb to the roof is rather strong!

 

The above does leave something of a bird’s nest, but by sorting the cables as you disconnect and reconnect this can be managed (I used small cable ties).  The cable mess can be stowed below the plastic board (that supports the original pcb).  Your decoder can then be mounted above this.  I guess the mounting holes are for the recommended Loksound board, but there is plenty of room to fix another large decoder with double sided tape.  I found it easier to remove the plastic board, then slide between excess cable and decoder when connected.  Unlike some Heljan models (including latest 31 - grrr) there is plenty of slack in all of the wires such that these will not need extending, even if your decoder has all the terminals on the same ‘end’.

 

I hope this helps some people. I used a Zen Buddha which is fine for the model.  I may wire a sound-only decoder in parallel (as I have done with TTS chips for 31, 40 and 50).

 

 

Good luck, 

 

Neal

 

 

Dear Neal

 

Thank you; this is incredibly helpful.  Suffice it to say that I disconnected all the wires from the original PCB as part of the process of clearing the decks, and so failed to notice where each was connected.  Obviously, that was not a wise move!  I do, however, have an intact 47, so can cross reference that.  I agree with you re the generosity of the wires; there is plenty there, and it makes the job of adding a decoder much simpler.  Similarly, I removed the four wires which go to the under-chassis switches, and that has simplified the wiring and little (but it didn't, as I expected, give me a clear answer to the colour code deployed by Heljan on the model on which I am working).  Alas, I was tired before I began, and my brain was not up to the task of working it all out yesterday afternoon.  Hopefully, I will not be so tired when I resume work on it next weekend.  

 

On a different note, I share your view on the look of this model.  I cannot say with absolute certainty that it is spot-on accurate - but the more I look at it, the better it gets.  In particular, I put a straight edge against the windscreens and noticed that they are, as they should be, on a different plain, with the central windscreen strut forward of the side struts.  Indeed, the more I look at pictures of the prototype, the more I realise that it is a mass of subtle angles the appearance of which varies depending (amongst other things) upon viewing angle and livery, and is probably highly subjective when it comes to recreation in model form.  All in all, I think it is another cracking model (and certainly a better model than I could create using any of the currently-available kits).

 

I hope you enjoy yours once it is/they are up and running.

 

Peter 

[SouthernBlue80s]

3 hours ago, Clarky1000 said:

I got my Large logo Blue one yesterday.      Looks very nice to me and there was nothing broken.

 

One interesting thing is the head-code panel 

 

Heljan supply a pair of panels with lamps and a pair with sealed beams, so that you can "pick" whichever suits your particular chosen fleet number

 

I looked at the excellent class 47 website and they all (at least up to 47441), appear to have had the lens type at No. 2 end and the sealed beam type (with black rubber seals around the lenses) at No.1 end.

 

Does anyone know why BR did this??

 

G

 

There was some equipment retrofitted to no 2 end in the headcode box area. (I think it was brake equipment)

 

Which meant room was limited so lights were fitted whilst the No 1 end which still had the original set up had lenses fitted.

 

Regards 

Steve

[Clarky1000]

Thanks for that Steve

 

I've learnt something there!

 

Best wishes

 

G

[philiprporter]

I got a very early (and very, very generous) Christmas present - BR blue original version with alpha-numeric headcodes - missing bogie spring and snapped buffer shank (and no sign of buffer spring in box) and a few other plastic bits floating about. Anyway if it helps, the lighting wires are as follows:

• Cab lights: red = negative, blue = positive
• Red tail lights: green = negative, orange = positive
• Headcode lights: red = negative, black = positive (yes really!)

The same colour wires are used at both ends which makes life a bit easier, but you need to work out which of the two red wires at each end is cab light and which is head code light - I used a 9v battery and no risk of damage the LEDs as the resistors are on the lighting PCBs, as they have been for all Heljan O gauge locos since the very early releases. As mentioned above, the wiring diagram in the manual isn't for a 47 - goodness only knows what loco it is for?

 

I got rid of the switch unit and its 4 wires completely, so all the lights go direct to the decoder.

 

Cheers, Phil. 

 

[Baggies1961]

Reading some of the posts before I opened my latest box up.

Something going/gone on in both cabs, not sure what?

Very surprised the 47’s not on a wooden plinth. Number one end top handrail under window very delicate and needs reshaping as transit has bent it.

No bits appear to have dropped off, fingers crossed.

[neal]

3 hours ago, philiprporter said:

I got a very early (and very, very generous) Christmas present - BR blue original version with alpha-numeric headcodes - missing bogie spring and snapped buffer shank (and no sign of buffer spring in box) and a few other plastic bits floating about. Anyway if it helps, the lighting wires are as follows:

• Cab lights: red = negative, blue = positive
• Red tail lights: green = negative, orange = positive
• Headcode lights: red = negative, black = positive (yes really!)

The same colour wires are used at both ends which makes life a bit easier, but you need to work out which of the two red wires at each end is cab light and which is head code light - I used a 9v battery and no risk of damage the LEDs as the resistors are on the lighting PCBs, as they have been for all Heljan O gauge locos since the very early releases. As mentioned above, the wiring diagram in the manual isn't for a 47 - goodness only knows what loco it is for?

 

I got rid of the switch unit and its 4 wires completely, so all the lights go direct to the decoder.

 

Cheers, Phil. 

 

Thanks Phil, 

 

Those are the last pieces of the jigsaw, so why-oh-why couldn’t Heljan have provided this information.

 

Ben…..?

[uk_pm]

5 hours ago, philiprporter said:

I got a very early (and very, very generous) Christmas present - BR blue original version with alpha-numeric headcodes - missing bogie spring and snapped buffer shank (and no sign of buffer spring in box) and a few other plastic bits floating about. Anyway if it helps, the lighting wires are as follows:

• Cab lights: red = negative, blue = positive
• Red tail lights: green = negative, orange = positive
• Headcode lights: red = negative, black = positive (yes really!)

The same colour wires are used at both ends which makes life a bit easier, but you need to work out which of the two red wires at each end is cab light and which is head code light - I used a 9v battery and no risk of damage the LEDs as the resistors are on the lighting PCBs, as they have been for all Heljan O gauge locos since the very early releases. As mentioned above, the wiring diagram in the manual isn't for a 47 - goodness only knows what loco it is for?

 

I got rid of the switch unit and its 4 wires completely, so all the lights go direct to the decoder.

 

Cheers, Phil. 

 

Thanks Phil, that is super helpful.  Happy (early) Christmas!

 

Peter

[47606odin]

#metoo

 

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