RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[Craigw]

Really? So we should buy something we don't want or already have sufficient of to ensure that we get the model we do want?

 

I'm sure that I've read somewhere (it may even have been here on RMweb) that models get chosen for production partly on the basis of perceived demand, poll results, trends in the hobby, customer feedback etc and partly down to the gut instincts of those in charge of commissioning the models. Previous sales may be a part of the equation but I'd suggest that they perhaps matter less than we think they might. It's fairly obvious that Hornby's Sentinels and Pecket can't have been based on previous sales of industrial prototypes as they were the first of their kind.

 

I am not sure that the half dozen or so people who have posted in here (and listed virtually every NER loco as needed) will convince the manufacturers that they "have" to do a range of NER models. The simple reality is that if you want to model any serious selection of pre group locos and stock you will have to kit build or scratch build. No amount of wishing and hoping is going to change that for the foreseeable future. You can carry on endless rants in forums and wait years for nothing or you can be realistic and start building kits. Given the choice between fact or fantasy, I will choose facts any day.

 

Craig W

Edited August 3, 2018 by Craigw

[Porcy Mane]

 

it is a wish list stuck in the Hornby posts. nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

How true. Although not loco, how many times has the Slaters 20 ton Wooden hopper received a mention in this thread? Slaters are now advertising the 4mm version again at £8.15 + vat so amend your wish lists chaps and buy some Slaters kits.

 

P

[Edwardian]

Strangely, wishing for further RTR releases of pre-Grouping locos and kit building or converting are not mutually exclusive activities!  

[nathan70000]

Have Slaters reintroduced the Birdcage brake as well?

[Porcy Mane]

Have Slaters reintroduced the Birdcage brake as well?

Only the hopper gets a mention in the ad.

[Compound2632]

How true. Although not loco, how many times has the Slaters 20 ton Wooden hopper received a mention in this thread? Slaters are now advertising the 4mm version again at £8.15 + vat so amend your wish lists chaps and buy some Slaters kits.

 

P

 

Where have you seen this advertised? Not (yet) on their website.

 

Have Slaters reintroduced the Birdcage brake as well?

 

We understand that they're reintroducing their 4 mm kits slowly - the order has not, to my knowledge, been advertised. Remember they're not a vast firm and quite a lot of effort has to be put in before each kit is ready.

[Paul Cram]

How true. Although not loco, how many times has the Slaters 20 ton Wooden hopper received a mention in this thread? Slaters are now advertising the 4mm version again at £8.15 + vat so amend your wish lists chaps and buy some Slaters kits.

 

P

They are? Where?

[Porcy Mane]

Where have you seen this advertised? Not (yet) on their website.

 

 

AD on page 21 although the link to purchase is inactive.

 

https://issuu.com/drmepublishingltd/docs/model_railway_express_issue_eleven_?e=26483431/63510988

 

P

[brack]

Can't help but think that in spite of it being somewhat illogical the Y7 (H) might be the best ex NER choice. Several went into industrial service, they lasted until BR days, small size for collectors, 2 preserved and the north Sunderland railway link.

I could see them selling well for collectors, small shunting layouts, light railways and as an industrial shunter.

[The Black Hat]

I am not sure that the half dozen or so people who have posted in here (and listed virtually every NER loco as needed) will convince the manufacturers that they "have" to do a range of NER models. The simple reality is that if you want to model any serious selection of pre group locos and stock you will have to kit build or scratch build. No amount of wishing and hoping is going to change that for the foreseeable future. You can carry on endless rants in forums and wait years for nothing or you can be realistic and start building kits. Given the choice between fact or fantasy, I will choose facts any day.

 

Craig W

 

This has the danger of kicking the debate back into what was said several pages ago: being A) that it shouldn't just be that to model the NER you need to use a kit, while others get RTR releases that were kits and went mainstream, and B) that the simple reality is that theres is a lot of wishing and hoping shown in polls that show demand for ex NER and NE Region models is strong and matches or exceeds, the strength of others that have been selected for production.

 

In any case, it would be interesting to explore the options more and put that up for discussion. With Porcy pointing out that Slaters are rereleasing their 20T hopper wagon, it has seen some interest being shown. It raises the issue of exactly what are the best models to be made from a kit, and which ones should be lobbied for to be made by a company that includes them in an RTR release.

 

If we were to go and buy several kits of the 20T wagon, would this then make the release of a RTR version less profitable for the company as they would be looking to replace kit built wagons, or offer those who wanted the wagon with their own RTR release. While it might be that we would need to wait for a RTR model, the chances of one being made is growing. To further encourage more NE Region models, all releases for the area would need to sell well. This dilemma would effect any area where the interest overlaps with a kit being available, but for a wagon it easier to have this as an entry into kit building compared with a RTR locomotive release.

 

The advantage with the kit here over the locomotive release is that the kit will work on all systems straight away. There is less that can cause issue with the wagon, vs the engine which can have all the intricate systems for DCC sound and lights also being added in and needs to have DCC fitted so that it appeals to all areas of the market on release.

 

What I'm asking is how best do we - as a group of those wanting the models for the NER want to be served - that can also be the best option for companies wanting to get models made that can be produced and sold. The other element that needs to be mentioned is the growth of 3d printing. While we might want to see some models made, I really think that this is going to be a massive growth area. One has already started on doing the S&D/NER Inspection Saloon, known for being the 'old gentleman's coach' in the Railway children. While this might still be expensive to get this coach bought as a 3d part and kit and made the option is there and I think as this develops it will start to offer a lot of bespoke designs that can be brought to market.

 

So, as a group what do we think - how best can some areas and targets be realised so that we and companies can tap into the demand for the area we are interested in?

[robmcg]

I have followed this thread with interest for some time, and have never much thought about the great traditions of the NER, nor, to be fair, have I any personal connection with that area of British railway history, but just recently have enjoyed reading about the railway races to the north 1888 and 1895... partly because of the Rapido/Locomotion GNR Single, and a 4-4-0 from any of the participants, or a Hardwicke, well wouldn't any of them be nice!

 

An NER 4-4-0 would certainly be a significant model in terms of railway history, but it would have to compete with the SECR D class (nothing to do with the races)  as well as such as Webb Compounds, 2-4-0s from various railways, and other 4-4-0s,

 

The elephant in the room is capital expenditure and risk, and I don't see too many existing manufacturers and/or commissioners falling over themselves at the moment to take that risk, sadly.

 

I might be wrong, I often am!

Edited August 16, 2018 by robmcg

[coachmann]

Currently, it seems to be 'whats the latest e-cig', a prize example being the GNR Stirling Single. 'Useful' it is not, but it is flying off the shelves, so maybe we have now to combine 'useful' with 'e-cig'. The D20 4-4-0 seems to me to have some strengths because it carried a colorful pre-grouping livery and lasted long enough to be useful to BR modellers. By the time of their demise in 1957, I don't think there was a more graceful looking loco in the country.

 

That said, if I had Mystic's crystal ball, I would likely see a MR Single...

Edited August 17, 2018 by coachmann

[Compound2632]

That said, if I had Mystic's crystal ball, I would likely see a MR Single...

 

Again...

[Porcy Mane]

I hope the transfer sheet is included? 

 

Maybe you missed it.

[DougN]

Yes it is!

[stock_2007]

Are Slater's just taking pre orders for the 20 ton hopper? I really could do with some. I did have a order with Cooper Craft....but

[robmcg]

...

The D20 4-4-0 seems to me to have some strengths because it carried a colorful pre-grouping livery and lasted long enough to be useful to BR modellers. By the time of their demise in 1957, I don't think there was a more graceful looking loco in the country.

 

That said, if I had Mystic's crystal ball, I would likely see a MR Single...

 

Well said that man.

[south_tyne]

The D20 4-4-0 seems to me to have some strengths because it carried a colorful pre-grouping livery and lasted long enough to be useful to BR modellers. By the time of their demise in 1957, I don't think there was a more graceful looking loco in the country.

 

 

I would agree, such a graceful and handsome class and a true survivor from an earlier era. Although I would think a rtr example is pushing the bounds of reality somewhat!

[south_tyne]

.

 

If we were to go and buy several kits of the 20T wagon, would this then make the release of a RTR version less profitable for the company as they would be looking to replace kit built wagons, or offer those who wanted the wagon with their own RTR release. While it might be that we would need to wait for a RTR model, the chances of one being made is growing. To further encourage more NE Region models, all releases for the area would need to sell well. This dilemma would effect any area where the interest overlaps with a kit being available, but for a wagon it easier to have this as an entry into kit building compared with a RTR locomotive release.

 

 

Surely that cannot be a logical/sensible reason for not purchasing a kit..... it supports NER modelling and a smaller manufacurer, encourages development of modelling skills and you'd also get at least two for the price of any potential rtr model!!

 

Not only that but how on earth would Hornby (feel free to insert any other manufacturer here) have any idea how many Slaters sell!

Edited August 18, 2018 by south_tyne

[JaymzHatstand]

Are Slater's just taking pre orders for the 20 ton hopper? I really could do with some. I did have a order with Cooper Craft....but

Yes. I phoned them the other day and have a few on the way, once the transfers arrive at Slaters HQ. The helpful fella told me that they are all moulded and ready to go, just waiting on the transfers, which shouldn't be far away.

 

Cheers

 

J

[The Black Hat]

Surely that cannot be a logical/sensible reason for not purchasing a kit..... it supports NER modelling and a smaller manufacurer, encourages development of modelling skills and you'd also get at least two for the price of any potential rtr model!!

 

Not only that but how on earth would Hornby (feel free to insert any other manufacturer here) have any idea how many Slaters sell!

 

No, you misinterpret my post and suggestion. All I was raising was the issue that there is a dichotomy given that we could buy the kits that would be a practical way of getting people into kit building, and fill a gap, but also take out one release which an RTR company might be going for. I know the market will always adjust, that there are some that will buy a kit and then get the RTR release.

 

The question I'm raising is which is the best way to go about getting some stock. Kits might be a good way of getting some simple wagons made, whereby people can build a kit that would work on both analogue and digital systems. I know people have raised the idea of kits for engines, but a kit built engine is much less likely to be running on DCC, and certainly even less likely to be able to run with sound and lights. A kit built wagon doesn't suffer from these issues, unless you want to add a tail lamp. Any new model engine would be pitched by the RTR company to be able to run on all systems, thus maximising potential sales and that is why it could be better to think of engines coming from some RTR companies while there is the possibility of some stock still being best sourced from companies and if need be made by using a kit.

 

I'm just putting this out as an idea for others to ponder/consider and kick the issue about a bit - what do others think. Is this the best area for the kit built area of the market to develop into in the future? What types of wagon / stock might be best released in kit and how should that kit be made - metal, resin, plastic?

 

The area that will then effect all this will be 3D printing as a growth area that can also supply products for this similar niche of the market, as the technology and process is refined.

 

This is a general issue that could affect many different areas, even if we might eventually take its reasoning and think of the best ways to get engines done for the NER / NE Region. I'm just curious about what others think...

Edited August 21, 2018 by The Black Hat

[Porcy Mane]

The question I'm raising is which is the best way to go about getting some stock. Kits might be a good way of getting some simple wagons made, whereby people can build a kit that would work on both analogue and digital systems. I know people have raised the idea of kits for engines, but a kit built engine is much less likely to be running on DCC, and certainly even less likely to be able to run with sound and lights. A kit built wagon doesn't suffer from these issues, unless you want to add a tail lamp. Any new model engine would be pitched by the RTR company to be able to run on all systems, thus maximising potential sales and that is why it could be better to think of engines coming from some RTR companies while there is the possibility of some stock still being best sourced from companies and if need be made by using a kit.

 

What utter tosh!

 

 

Kits might be a good way of getting some simple wagons made, whereby people can build a kit that would work on both analogue and digital systems.

 

Eh?  Any wagon will run on DC or DCC. Please explain your reasoning further. On the other hand please don't.

 

 

I know people have raised the idea of kits for engines, but a kit built engine is much less likely to be running on DCC,

Please provide your evidence for this. I can provide plenty to the contrary. I guess you don't attend many of  Expo type shows (Where you are more likely to come across kit & scratch built rolling stock). If you did you would find large amounts of converts, probably now in the majority, to DCC.

 

 

 

 A kit built wagon doesn't suffer from these issues, unless you want to add a tail lamp. 

 

 

 

You mean working tail lamp?

 

Easily achievable on both DC & DCC. The advantage DCC gives you is you have more control over the operation of the lamp on the fly. Similar control can be achieved on DC with the use of reed switches, proximity sensors etc.

 

Modellers have been fitting constant illumination 4mm working tail lights to brake vans (Both DC & DCC) for eons. You just need a LED, some enamelled wire and a battery.

 

 

 

 

 

The reasoning in your post seems to have  no correlation to getting manufacturers to produce more RTR North eastern locomotives.

 

P

Edited August 21, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[The Black Hat]

Its not tosh, its a simple case of probability. Its much more likely that anyone making a kit built engine is still very likely to be running on an analogue system, even if there are some that can and do still convert their kit built engine to DCC / sound and even if the numbers between who does and doesn't have closed. 

 

What manufactures want choices of prototypes that are going to sell well and that means they are looking for a popular engine / stock. What they also need to be is something that can appeal to everyone and that means both digital and analogue. Despite of what your saying there the likelihood is that not all model railways are to expo standards. There are plenty that don't have the skills to go making a kit built engine or coach. RTR for them has been a better option.  Manufactures are also planning for what will be in their range in a few years time, so its important to identify trends that are happening now. 

 

Hence my thinking - are kits a good option for getting some of the stock that we might want to model the NE / NE Region over the RTR option. Is this a way back in for those in the kit built sector, as I would think that sales or volume is diminished compared with 5, 10 years ago. Maybe its not, but I just see less it built stuff around for sale or at the various shows I go to, which are not always expo, but I see more RTR being modeled with digital sound and features and less kit built engines appearing. 

 

I don't doubt that you can provide evidence that plenty of people are making a kit built engine and putting that towards DCC and DCC sound, but still think that overall there are significantly more people running kits on a traditional analogue system that they have had for years, than running ones that will be digital. Probably on a layout they have had for years that is built at home, and stays at home and they don't want to convert it to digital. A kit built wagon can run quite happily on both an analogue or digital system and my point was that it wont have electrics in it at all, unless your wanting the tail lamp. Even so, that again can be done on either system. So does that make a kit built wagon, like the Slaters 20T hopper the best way for us to get that wagon for our fleets - does it mean we should find another wagon for the NE area to pick and lobby for, by amassing votes in polls and showing that such a product would sell. Is this an area that kit makers can market by finding the gaps in the main range as they always have done, and make kits that are simple to do and entice people to build them, having largely had experience of just buying RTR model after RTR model when prices in years gone by were good and the kit was seen as expensive.

 

It still means that a model engine is probably going to still come from an RTR release as a kit option can not be obtained by as many people and demand for them matches that of other engines that have been produced. Thus, an NER model engine can be done and is viable, according to polls done, but also other engines made and released to market. The advantage of this is that such a model of an NER machine can satisfy all of us on both digital and analogue systems, so it appeals to as many potential purchasers. There are also issues of consistency in appearance and standard of the finished model, as well as the cost of the model that have been mentioned and discussed already that for a locomotive still makes RTR the much preferred option for those wanting an NER machine. 

 

Like I said, the other area that brings excitement is 3D printing. Will that combine parts from RTR with an element of kit building where we get moulds and make them into our own models in the future. Is this going to be a way that mixes both, or will it bring a new revolution in the market, which i think it might. 

 

I know a lot of this is based on generalisations and broad thinking, but I am deliberately being more vague with this to see if there are trends and ideas that others have noticed so they can be discussed more. 

 

Do people think that the kit built option is shifting more to wagons and stock away from engines?
Exaclty how much stuff is kit built and digital? How much of this is done using NER / NE Regional layouts?
If Engines are likely to be RTR for popular choices at what point does demand get so low that kit built options come if you really want an engine thats so niche?
Are there some engines that we think are so niche that they are unlikely to be done as people highlight B16, J21, J25, J27, A8, A5 as potential ones that could be in a general range?
What models are likely to be shop commissions and will that trend see some more NER choices apart from G5 - will these be the e-cig choices of D17, D20?
What about stock - which ones, where will we get them?

And then - 3D printing. Will this be the best way in the future to get niche models made?

 

I dont have the answers, I'm interested in peoples response and what others think. Maybe its tosh, maybe others are wondering about it too?

[south_tyne]

Its not tosh, its a simple case of probability. Its much more likely that anyone making a kit built engine is still very likely to be running on an analogue system, even if there are some that can and do still convert their kit built engine to DCC / sound and even if the numbers between who does and doesn't have closed.

 

What manufactures want choices of prototypes that are going to sell well and that means they are looking for a popular engine / stock. What they also need to be is something that can appeal to everyone and that means both digital and analogue. Despite of what your saying there the likelihood is that not all model railways are to expo standards. There are plenty that don't have the skills to go making a kit built engine or coach. RTR for them has been a better option. Manufactures are also planning for what will be in their range in a few years time, so its important to identify trends that are happening now.

 

Hence my thinking - are kits a good option for getting some of the stock that we might want to model the NE / NE Region over the RTR option. Is this a way back in for those in the kit built sector, as I would think that sales or volume is diminished compared with 5, 10 years ago. Maybe its not, but I just see less it built stuff around for sale or at the various shows I go to, which are not always expo, but I see more RTR being modeled with digital sound and features and less kit built engines appearing.

 

I don't doubt that you can provide evidence that plenty of people are making a kit built engine and putting that towards DCC and DCC sound, but still think that overall there are significantly more people running kits on a traditional analogue system that they have had for years, than running ones that will be digital. Probably on a layout they have had for years that is built at home, and stays at home and they don't want to convert it to digital. A kit built wagon can run quite happily on both an analogue or digital system and my point was that it wont have electrics in it at all, unless your wanting the tail lamp. Even so, that again can be done on either system. So does that make a kit built wagon, like the Slaters 20T hopper the best way for us to get that wagon for our fleets - does it mean we should find another wagon for the NE area to pick and lobby for, by amassing votes in polls and showing that such a product would sell. Is this an area that kit makers can market by finding the gaps in the main range as they always have done, and make kits that are simple to do and entice people to build them, having largely had experience of just buying RTR model after RTR model when prices in years gone by were good and the kit was seen as expensive.

 

It still means that a model engine is probably going to still come from an RTR release as a kit option can not be obtained by as many people and demand for them matches that of other engines that have been produced. Thus, an NER model engine can be done and is viable, according to polls done, but also other engines made and released to market. The advantage of this is that such a model of an NER machine can satisfy all of us on both digital and analogue systems, so it appeals to as many potential purchasers. There are also issues of consistency in appearance and standard of the finished model, as well as the cost of the model that have been mentioned and discussed already that for a locomotive still makes RTR the much preferred option for those wanting an NER machine.

 

Like I said, the other area that brings excitement is 3D printing. Will that combine parts from RTR with an element of kit building where we get moulds and make them into our own models in the future. Is this going to be a way that mixes both, or will it bring a new revolution in the market, which i think it might.

 

I know a lot of this is based on generalisations and broad thinking, but I am deliberately being more vague with this to see if there are trends and ideas that others have noticed so they can be discussed more.

 

Do people think that the kit built option is shifting more to wagons and stock away from engines?

Exaclty how much stuff is kit built and digital? How much of this is done using NER / NE Regional layouts?

If Engines are likely to be RTR for popular choices at what point does demand get so low that kit built options come if you really want an engine thats so niche?

Are there some engines that we think are so niche that they are unlikely to be done as people highlight B16, J21, J25, J27, A8, A5 as potential ones that could be in a general range?

What models are likely to be shop commissions and will that trend see some more NER choices apart from G5 - will these be the e-cig choices of D17, D20?

What about stock - which ones, where will we get them?

 

And then - 3D printing. Will this be the best way in the future to get niche models made?

 

I dont have the answers, I'm interested in peoples response and what others think. Maybe its tosh, maybe others are wondering about it too?

Sorry if I misinterpret but I just don't understand your argument at all regarding kits....

[The Black Hat]

Sorry if I misinterpret but I just don't understand your argument at all regarding kits....

 

Trying to keep it brief:

 

A kit built wagon can go on anything, analogue or digital. A kit built engine is more likely to run on analogue but not improbable to be adapted for digital. So, are we still going to be best served with engines from RTR and some stock from both RTR and digital?

 

Discuss. 

 

(I know, why didnt I just say that..)