RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[DougN]

The Slaters kits for these provide a perfect way to make the transition from merely buying to making. It is understood that the 20 ton hopper is front of the queue for re-release.

 

Other than great wagons! Where have you heard that slaters have succeeded in sucking back the moulds... I ask as I just have not heard of any further information either way!

[Compound2632]

The Slaters kits for these provide a perfect way to make the transition from merely buying to making. It is understood that the 20 ton hopper is front of the queue for re-release.

 

Other than great wagons! Where have you heard that slaters have succeeded in sucking back the moulds... I ask as I just have not heard of any further information either way!

 

It's all rather word-of-mouth. Lecorbusier had words from the horse's mouth, likewise Daddyman re. the NER hoppers in particular. 

[The Black Hat]

perhaps as these one-offs seem so popular, we should be badgering someone to do "Aerolite"....

 

Les

 

I've already hinted on some Locomotion threads that Aerolite should be one of the next NRM special releases. Its perfect to join the National Collection in Miniature range.

[phil gollin]

Its not a case of turning my nose up at a possible model for the NE, its because clearly if the model was made it would be primarily for its Southern use first and the north east second.

 

If anyone was wanting this unit, they would have to be modelling the 3rd rail network in and around Newcastle. Already that has narrowed the sphere of its appeal in the north east dramatically, as they would be useless for anyone modelling other areas of the same region. That means that your suburban Newcastle layout, also is going to be framed on when these units were operating, again, removing the appeal to those modelling Newcastle as these units were replaced by DMUs later.

 

Its a simple matter of geography that the 3rd rail network 'up north' is limited in both terms of period of operation and its size. Compared to the Southern region where the network is massive. So anyone wanting this model would piggyback on its release for the Southern region. Instead, to get a model made for the north east, it should pitch to the regional area as a whole and not limit itself to a narrow part of its use. That's why engines being selected are covering the period from late pre-grouping to end of steam, and were seen across the entire region - a region that on its own is the same size of the grouped southern region and its a fact I have mentioned previously that one shed on its own like Darlington would have been the equivalent of a pre-grouping Southern region company.

 

There have been plenty of engines that have been released that can make up part of the regional fleet that are made for other areas but have the benefit of also running in the North East. Engines like O1, Ivatt 4MT, Ivatt 2MT, Fairburn tanks, all have been done for other areas, yet were seen in the area. Diesel and DMU stock again is very widespread but can be used to model the area, giving you a mix of engines that can form a fleet, particularly if your modelling transition period or grouping, with many group standards like B1, A3, A4, L1, also having been done.  ............................

 

.

.

 

That really is hilarious  -  all the arguments used to explain to you why your NE obsession was misguided, you now use against those poor geordies !

 

What have they ever done to upset you ?

 

.

[Edwardian]

I've already hinted on some Locomotion threads that Aerolite should be one of the next NRM special releases. Its perfect to join the National Collection in Miniature range.

 

But when there are so many Really Useful Engines that could be made instead?

[coachmann]

Nope.....We need another machine introduced in 1870 like the Stirling Single.....and its in the NRM too!

 

Midland Kirtley 2-4-0.       

 

If we're gonna have a North Eastern locos, pray it's a damn sight more useful than 'Aerolite'.

[Edwardian]

I have said it before, but the Tenant 2-4-0 is one to consider.

 

- A very attractive locomotive

 

- Preserved and part of the National Collection

 

- Used on the 1888 Race to the North - along with the Stirling Single - so could be matched with any 1880s ECJS 6-wheelers that might be released for the Single 

 

- Unlike the Single, lasted into Grouping (1929), so can be translated to "E5" for those who only speak LNER 

 

- Relatively unchanged - with one major boiler replacement

 

- A number of livery options

 

- Very useful, during their lives working from top link services to secondary trans-Pennine services, they got around.

 

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

Problem with Aerolite is would most people be able to tell the difference from it and a J72?

 

I doubt most enthusiasts could probably point out a B16 of any variant in a photograph. They don't have iconic names like the B17s or a preserved example like the B12s. They are a bit anonymous IMO.

 

 

To be honest the only NER locomotives worth doing as a mass produced main range model is one of the 0-6-0s. J21, J25, J26 or J27. Even then the J21 and J25 are possibly too similar to a J15. The J26 and J27 are similar to each other, but I would go for the J27 seeing as they lasted longer and one is preserved.

 

But I can't see anyone doing one at the moment seeing as both Hornby and Bachmann have a backlog of 0-6-0s due and numerous others already in their ranges.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[nathan70000]

70 'anonymous' B16s were built compared to 45 S15s, also nameless and usually black 4-6-0s (albeit with a preserved example). If Hornby can make the latter viable, why not the far more widespread B16?

[Edwardian]

 

 

To be honest the only NER locomotives worth doing as a mass produced main range model is one of the 0-6-0s. J21, J25, J26 or J27. Even then the J21 and J25 are possibly too similar to a J15. The J26 and J27 are similar to each other, but I would go for the J27 seeing as they lasted longer and one is preserved.

 

But I can't see anyone doing one at the moment seeing as both Hornby and Bachmann have a backlog of 0-6-0s due and numerous others already in their ranges.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Well that's cleared that up.

 

So perhaps we can ask the Mods to lock the topic, to save us wasting any more time on it.

 

That said, you have a point about Hornby and Bachmann.

[micklner]

Problem with Aerolite is would most people be able to tell the difference from it and a J72?

 

I doubt most enthusiasts could probably point out a B16 of any variant in a photograph. They don't have iconic names like the B17s or a preserved example like the B12s. They are a bit anonymous IMO.

 

 

To be honest the only NER locomotives worth doing as a mass produced main range model is one of the 0-6-0s. J21, J25, J26 or J27. Even then the J21 and J25 are possibly too similar to a J15. The J26 and J27 are similar to each other, but I would go for the J27 seeing as they lasted longer and one is preserved.

 

But I can't see anyone doing one at the moment seeing as both Hornby and Bachmann have a backlog of 0-6-0s due and numerous others already in their ranges.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Aerolite like a J72 really ? well they are both Tank engines, and thats about it.

 

If a person is a "enthusiast" that surely means they now something about Locomotives . The B16 in its 3 versions is as distinctive as a unique design  as any other Locomotive Class. Far from anonymous, they were widely travelled and highly thought of.

 

J21/J24/J25 is vaguely similar to a J15 really?  the only obvious part is the front splashers. The Tender is totally different from anything GER based. You could say all 0-6-0's are similar of that  era no matter who built them, using that theory.

 

J26/J27 are virtually identical the only obvious difference is round front cab windows on a J26 and wider version on the J27.

 

Of the above J21 and J27 still exist, so may have been scanned already. The J27 is also running now, so a even more obvious choice for future release.

 

I can't see Bachmann doing any of the above  in the next five to ten years , it will probably take them that long to bring out what they have already announced.  Hornby at the moment, are much more on the ball relating to releases.

[Steamport Southport]

70 'anonymous' B16s were built compared to 45 S15s, also nameless and usually black 4-6-0s (albeit with a preserved example). If Hornby can make the latter viable, why not the far more widespread B16?

 

Many of them were rebuilt though. In fact they were vastly improved by Thompson both in performance and looks, before that Gresley improved them. So which one do you do?

 

 

I thought there were seven S15s preserved. All were painted green at some point and at least one has been named. Ironically three are in the North East. They also worked over a vastly wider area than the NER.  From London to the South West.

 

 

I don't see why to make a case of making a NER model then NER enthusiasts have to ridicule other railways? Most of which were vastly superior.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

Aerolite like a J72 really ? well they are both Tank engines, and thats about it.

 

If a person is a "enthusiast" that surely means they now something about Locomotives . The B16 in its 3 versions is as distinctive as a unique design  as any other Locomotive Class. Far from anonymous, they were widely travelled and highly thought of.

 

J21/J24/J25 is vaguely similar to a J15 really?  the only obvious part is the front splashers. The Tender is totally different from anything GER based. You could say all 0-6-0's are similar of that  era no matter who built them, using that theory.

 

J26/J27 are virtually identical the only obvious difference is round front cab windows on a J26 and wider version on the J27.

 

Of the above J21 and J27 still exist, so may have been scanned already. The J27 is also running now, so a even more obvious choice for future release.

 

I can't see Bachmann doing any of the above  in the next five to ten years , it will probably take them that long to bring out what they have already announced.  Hornby at the moment, are much more on the ball relating to releases.

 

Didn't you notice the winky face?

 

I'll stick to my guns about the rest though. The only one worth releasing as a "mass produced" model is the J27.

 

 

Maybe the others could be done as limited editions or commissions, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

 

 

Jason

[Edwardian]

Didn't you notice the winky face?

 

I'll stick to my guns about the rest though. The only one worth releasing as a "mass produced" model is the J27.

 

 

Maybe the others could be done as limited editions or commissions, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Not beside the part I answered, which you in any case confirm was meant in earnest.

 

It must be nice to be blessed with such certainty of view.

 

No winky face.

[mckinneyc]

The original B16s would be commercially viable. Long lived, a few different liveries and plenty of running numbers. Also a mixed traffic design so plenty for it to pull. Also plenty of models to run with it especially if you model the post war period, ie B1, K1, Pacifics, D49, J72, J94, Q6, V2 to name but a few.

[Steamport Southport]

Not beside the part I answered, which you in any case confirm was meant in earnest.

 

It must be nice to be blessed with such certainty of view.

 

No winky face.

 

Okay, Oh Wise One. Lets turn this on its head.

 

 

Which NER models do you reckon will sell thousands of models?

 

That's what we are talking about here. Hornby, as it's in their part of the forum, putting hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of investment into new models of NER prototypes that have more than one livery variant and will sell for five years or so.

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

 

 

J21/J24/J25 is vaguely similar to a J15 really?  the only obvious part is the front splashers. The Tender is totally different from anything GER based. You could say all 0-6-0's are similar of that  era no matter who built them, using that theory.

 

 

Erm yes.

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-j21-train-right-being-pulled-by-its-twin-the-j15-at-beamish-museum-20208991.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=16340CAC-9C48-4791-AAC1-16EE25EB8813&p=62486&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dj21%26qt_raw%3dj21%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0

 

Would you add one of them to your range if you had something was similar already?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited August 1, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[Edwardian]

Okay, Oh Wise One. Lets turn this on its head.

 

 

Which NER models do you reckon will sell thousands of models?

 

That's what we are talking about here. Hornby, as it's in their part of the forum, putting hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of investment into new models of NER prototypes that have more than one livery variant and will sell for five years or so.

 

 

 

Jason

 

The only thing I have seen Hornby pour significant sums into recently is the acquisition of shares in a company owned by Lyndon Davies that has no apparent commercial value for Hornby.

 

If anyone wants to discuss the realistic prospect of more NER RTR, it's probably best to move the topic out of the Hornby section.

 

But you know best, I expect.

[The Black Hat]

.

 

That really is hilarious  -  all the arguments used to explain to you why your NE obsession was misguided, you now use against those poor geordies !

 

What have they ever done to upset you ?

 

.

 

Its not misguided - its simple probability and choosing something to lobby for that is likely to get the most people wanting the same product. People would rather want a B16 taking a freight through or around Newcastle, that can also be bought by someone modelling somewhere else in the region, than a 3rd rail EMU that only ran on a branch or two around Newcastle. 

 

It really is that simple. Its funny how you can't respond with data or interpretation, just putting it again at Southern needs more. Yes you want them, and the market is there, but some of us, want something from up north to share in the fun and it would be a viable product. 

 

 

Many of them were rebuilt though. In fact they were vastly improved by Thompson both in performance and looks, before that Gresley improved them. So which one do you do?

 

 

I thought there were seven S15s preserved. All were painted green at some point and at least one has been named. Ironically three are in the North East. They also worked over a vastly wider area than the NER.  From London to the South West.

 

 

I don't see why to make a case of making a NER model then NER enthusiasts have to ridicule other railways? Most of which were vastly superior.

 

 

 

Jason

 

As has been said, the NER on its own was easily a match for the Southern region. Part of putting forward the idea of a model is based on the success of the prototype and in that respect NER engines were a fantastic success. 

 

Heavy freight was done by Q6 and Q7, some of the most reliable machines for the purpose in the Eastern region. Electrification came in the North East first in any real way with a overhead system on the Simpasture line. Innovations came in terms of Autocar with Petrol engines, and modern working by using a common wagon pool - the forerunner of the MGR system. The engineering that came from stations to bridges, from viaducts to lines with a long and complex gradient system taxed the skill and abilities of the staff and company far higher than many other companies. Often engines were brought in to work other lines in the region, with Stainmore being an excellent example and these designs were often found wanting, which is why NER machines remained in service long into British Railways. 

 

Its not that NER are vastly superior, but to many they were better, but few take the time to look into it in detail. Other companies that were equal to the task Id say were the Western Railway and the Midland after Staniers arrival - but thats a debate for another area, at another time. 

 

NER engines have a character and ability that is very much obvious to those that understand the history and lineage of the company. Even in grouping, designs such as D49, J39 continue to show the hallmarks of NER design and practice. There is a following that likes this topic, its history and its success, often overlooked by those more Southern centric. That following can be seen in polls, can be seen in the traffic generated when topics come up and by looking at the interest seen in protoypes that still exist today. Such numbers, reflected in wishlist polls show that the option of NER machines is viable, if other products are selected by company's but show in the poll at a similar level or even below. That means models of J27, J21, B16 are all propositions that could be done in the near future. 

 

Yes they might have been better than some/most other designs out there, but when it comes to the best they were just as good as the ones people readily recall. 

[The Black Hat]

Lets just consider this for a second shall we?

 

Even then the J21 and J25 are possibly too similar to a J15.

 

 

Engine 1 - J21

 

 

Engine 2 - J15

 

 

Anyone for spot the difference? Or would this be more helpful:

https://www.specsavers.co.uk 

Edited August 1, 2018 by The Black Hat

[Compound2632]

It's the similarities that are more interesting.

 

EDIT: Hey you changed the engines - I meant the E1 and Aerolite. JRR Tolkein was once challenged on the similarities between The Lord of the Rings and Wagner's Ring Cycle. "Both rings were round" he said. I'll appropriate that to say of the NER Class C and the GER Class Y14 - both locomotives are late-Victorian 0-6-0s.

 

It's Great Western engines that are all the same...

Edited August 1, 2018 by Compound2632

[micklner]

Erm yes.

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-j21-train-right-being-pulled-by-its-twin-the-j15-at-beamish-museum-20208991.html?pv=1&stamp=2&imageid=16340CAC-9C48-4791-AAC1-16EE25EB8813&p=62486&n=0&orientation=0&pn=1&searchtype=0&IsFromSearch=1&srch=foo%3dbar%26st%3d0%26pn%3d1%26ps%3d100%26sortby%3d2%26resultview%3dsortbyPopular%26npgs%3d0%26qt%3dj21%26qt_raw%3dj21%26lic%3d3%26mr%3d0%26pr%3d0%26ot%3d0%26creative%3d%26ag%3d0%26hc%3d0%26pc%3d%26blackwhite%3d%26cutout%3d%26tbar%3d1%26et%3d0x000000000000000000000%26vp%3d0%26loc%3d0%26imgt%3d0%26dtfr%3d%26dtto%3d%26size%3d0xFF%26archive%3d1%26groupid%3d%26pseudoid%3d%26a%3d%26cdid%3d%26cdsrt%3d%26name%3d%26qn%3d%26apalib%3d%26apalic%3d%26lightbox%3d%26gname%3d%26gtype%3d%26xstx%3d0%26simid%3d%26saveQry%3d%26editorial%3d1%26nu%3d%26t%3d%26edoptin%3d%26customgeoip%3d%26cap%3d1%26cbstore%3d1%26vd%3d0%26lb%3d%26fi%3d2%26edrf%3d%26ispremium%3d1%26flip%3d0

 

Would you add one of them to your range if you had something was similar already? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

Close cousin at best. In that view the Locos are totally different heights etc etc.     

Edited August 1, 2018 by micklner

[The Black Hat]

Close cousin at best. In that view totally different heights etc etc. 

 

Don't worry - he will be in the camp that think all Western engines are the same too... 

 

This photo shows immediate differences at the same event, from a different angle...

 

Edited August 1, 2018 by The Black Hat

[phil gollin]

Its not misguided - its simple probability and choosing something to lobby for that is likely to get the most people wanting the same product. People would rather want a B16 taking a freight through or around Newcastle, that can also be bought by someone modelling somewhere else in the region, than a 3rd rail EMU that only ran on a branch or two around Newcastle. 

 

It really is that simple. Its funny how you can't respond with data or interpretation, just putting it again at Southern needs more. Yes you want them, and the market is there, but some of us, want something from up north to share in the fun and it would be a viable product. .........

 

 

.

 

Well that was a good piece of evasion, you avoid the fact that your arguments for the NE do not apply to the (NE) Tyneside electrics.

 

I AM NOT putting it "at Southern needs more"  -  I was pointing out that you are willing to avoid a model that has a Southern connection WHICH WOULD MAKE IT MORE COMMERCIAL just because of that Southern connection.

 

I keep asking, so I will repeat, how are your (and others efforts) going at getting the announced NE items sold out on pre-order ?

 

What is important is that the model railway companies make money.

 

.

[Edwardian]

 

 

It's Great Western engines that are all the same...

 

All Great Western 4-6-0s look the same?

 

How can you say that?!? 

 

Some had four cylinders, whilst others had two!