RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[nathan70000]

The other thing to consider now is that RTR standards are so high that a kitbuilt loco would stick out like a sore thumb unless built by a professional.

[Craigw]

The other thing to consider now is that RTR standards are so high that a kitbuilt loco would stick out like a sore thumb unless built by a professional.

 

So, never have a go at anything because you will never be as good as someone else?

 

Truly bizarre logic.

[DougN]

OK the thread is about the next best option for a NER loco in RTR. 

 

If we are to open this to kits I am pretty sure that Arthur Kimbers selection, London Road models, and David Bradwell cover the etched market, then there is the David Alexander, DJH, Nucast, which cover the cast market. I have not looked into it but I would say the "mainstream" classes are well covered. So the discussion is quite a moot point. 

 

Yes, I was one that opened up about the topic covering RTR wagons and coaches. Though I still think this is a relevant discussion. 

 

However back to the subject above- the argument that a kit built can never replace a RTR model is probably true. Though not every thing will be made as a RTR and therefore some things will only ever be available as a kit. So to argue to do nothing incase a RTR model is released is crazy.... those individuals are missing the point of life to challange oneself. Peoples skills will only improve by trying. To do nothing will only achieve nothing. So can we please move on. 

[Porcy Mane]

Its not tosh, its a simple case of probability. Its much more likely that anyone making a kit built engine is still very likely to be running on an analogue system, even if there are some that can and do still convert their kit built engine to DCC / sound and even if the numbers between who does and doesn't have closed. 

 

Oh dear. As I said before please provide proof of your "probability". I know a good few kit and scratch builders and they all use DCC. When scratch building a loco, it is just as easy to wire it for DCC as it is for DC and it's just as easy to wire for both systems using a manufactures DCC socket and blank.  Professional and semi professional loco builders will wire locomotives dependant on their client's specifications.

 

 

 

What manufactures want choices of prototypes that are going to sell well and that means they are looking for a popular engine / stock. 

 

You are stating the obvious and in that single sentence have answered your own question of why there aren't more NER RTR locomotives.

 

 

 

What they also need to be is something that can appeal to everyone and that means both digital and analogue. Despite of what your saying there the likelihood is that not all model railways are to expo standards. There are plenty that don't have the skills to go making a kit built engine or coach. RTR for them has been a better option.  Manufactures are also planning for what will be in their range in a few years time, so its important to identify trends that are happening now. 

 

Manufacturers produce everything from Alarm clocks to Zips but no manufacturer has ever produced a single item that will "appeal to everyone". This fact is just as pertinent to model railway locomotives as it is to general manufacturing.

This analogue/DCC thing; you maybe should try stopping getting distracted with it. Model railway manufacturers, both large and small have been making the majority of their locomotives DCC ready/capable for years. Your DCC points have little relevance as to why more NER locomotive types are not being manufactured.

Regarding my expo comment, you refer to it out of context. It was used to illustrate the fact that if you attended one of the main expo events, you would see a good proportion of kit and scratch built locos running under DCC and yes, there will always be people that rely on RTR or derive their pleasure from just running RTR loco's and stock. More power to their respective elbows as it is probably their spending power that keeps the RTR manufactures going. What we don't see them doing, is jumping of every RTR bandwagon screaming, "I want this loco, I want that loco and I want it now!"

 

Whilst the continued banging of your drum to bring to bring different NER locos to the RTR market is commendable, your missives bring nothing new to the debate. They are basic wish listing dressed in different but very baggy clothes.  If you feel so strongly about what Hornby should be producing then take yourself off to Hornby HQ. Show them the results of your market research; show them the evidence of demand; show them why North East locos will move off the retailers' shelves quicker than any of their other products. Don't be surprised to find there will have been people there before you presenting far more powerful and appropriate reasoning.  It's not us on the forums you have to convince. It's Hornby.

 

Then after you've done that have a read of this post and look at the post preceding it. There you will find ones man solution. Oh, and as I'm sure you know the layout is DCC controlled.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page-1085&do=findComment&comment=3272666

Edited August 23, 2018 by Porcy Mane

[coachmann]

The proprietary r-t-r companies will only produce North Eastern locos when or if it can be proven there is a sufficiently large market to produce a healthy profit. How this would come about is anyone's guess. Simply saying you would buy for instance a J27 0-6-0 tender loco is not enough when history tells us that the fall-off once it arrives can be high when people say they would have bought it had it been a J25, had the rivets not been over scale, had the Moon not been in conjunction with Uranus and so-on.

 

You've got your Bachmann NER 0-8-0, so why not communicate with the company and ask them if they have considered adding another NER loco. A B16 4-6-0 would give you a passenger loco that had the added advantage of getting around a bit and therefore appealing to people not modelling the North Eastern area.  I am not putting forward my favourite loco as it is immaterial to me. Just trying to be helpful.

Edited August 23, 2018 by coachmann

[D9020 Nimbus]

The Q6 0-8-0 is Hornby, not Bachmann.

 

The problem with the LNER in general is that—never having much money—there was little standardisation and even some of the "standard" locos weren't exactly widespread (e.g. the D49). Most of the standard classes have been modelled at one time or another. Of the pre-grouping classes, one GNR (N2), two GC (J11 and O4), two GE with another on the way (D11, J15, N7), two NE with another on the way (J72, Q6, G5) and just one NB on the way (J36). I've ignored the J52 (GN) and J83 (NB) which aren't up to modern standards.

 

Looking at other pre-grouping railways, the Midland does better (4 plus one on the way, counting the "Jinty" as a standard type, but some of these were adopted as LMS standards), the SECR has 4 (one—the 'N'—a standard type) and there are 5 ex-LSWR types.

 

The Midland covered a much larger area than the NER. The Southern companies didn't, but the LSWR benefits from Kernow's interest—the NER may benefit in the future from TMC's. Also, the NER didn't serve London. Note how relatively badly-off the Scottish companies do in this survey.

 

No doubt Hornby could do the J27 in the future if the Q6 sold well.

[phil gollin]

.

 

I have suggested many times on this thread that the best way of getting interest in NE locos, stock, etc.... is to ensure that they sell out on pre-order.

 

One way of doing that might be to start an NE oriented specialist board (as with other railways) that would help people with similar interests to yourself "talk" to each other, instead of going off-topic on the Hornby board.

 

See ;

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/31-special-interests/

 

 

 

.

[it's-er]

.

 

I have suggested many times on this thread that the best way of getting interest in NE locos, stock, etc.... is to ensure that they sell out on pre-order.

 

One way of doing that might be to start an NE oriented specialist board (as with other railways) that would help people with similar interests to yourself "talk" to each other, instead of going off-topic on the Hornby board.

 

See ;

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/forum/31-special-interests/

 

 

 

.

Yes, I fully agree. It has been very odd discussing North Eastern locomotives on the Hornby thread! There are various North Eastern interests on RMweb, some on signalling

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128667-building-north-eastern-railway-signals/page-3

some on locomtive construction - 'Mikemeg's Workbench - building locomotives of the North Eastern' is superb at

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101015-mikemegs-workbench-building-locos-of-the-north-eastern/page-45

 

These are already in appropriate threads, and we can't bring them all into a single new North Eastern Railway thread. Having such a thread, however, would give visibility to North Eastern interests; and allow folk to open new topics discussing North Eastern matters, which those of us who are interested can readily find.

 

John Storey

[Jol Wilkinson]

Yes, I fully agree. It has been very odd discussing North Eastern locomotives on the Hornby thread! There are various North Eastern interests on RMweb, some on signalling

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/128667-building-north-eastern-railway-signals/page-3

some on locomtive construction - 'Mikemeg's Workbench - building locomotives of the North Eastern' is superb at

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101015-mikemegs-workbench-building-locos-of-the-north-eastern/page-45

 

These are already in appropriate threads, and we can't bring them all into a single new North Eastern Railway thread. Having such a thread, however, would give visibility to North Eastern interests; and allow folk to open new topics discussing North Eastern matters, which those of us who are interested can readily find.

 

John Storey

Perhaps an opportunity to have a "Modelling the NER" section in Special Interests. That would allow people to develop suitable wish lists to their heart's content.

[south_tyne]

So, never have a go at anything because you will never be as good as someone else?

 

Truly bizarre logic.

It is isn't it......

 

It is like saying why bother playing non league football because you will never be as good as a Premier League player! Or why bother playing in your local community orchestra because you are not of the standard of the musicians in the London Symphony Orchestra

[south_tyne]

.

 

 

 

You are stating the obvious and in that single sentence have answered your own question of why there aren't more NER RTR locomotives.

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64295-wright-writes/page-1085&do=findComment&comment=3272666

That is the crux of the argument and discussion... if there was/is a market it would/will happen. The rest of this is just a wishlist topic - almost "I want this toy and I want Hornby to make it for me now..." Edited August 24, 2018 by south_tyne

[Edwardian]

It is interesting how, for example, the three southern companies never lack for supporters, and are relatively generously provided for in RTR, particularly the SE&CR and the LB&SCR, which were largely confined to a relatively small region.

 

I would be interested to learn the route mileage of these two compared with the NER.  Traffic comparisons would be interesting too.

 

Now I have a great affection for these two southern companies, as well as for the NER, but I am more likely to model them because I perceive them easier prospects for a relative beginner with a pre-Grouping interest.

 

Anecdotally, most enthusiasts for southern companies tend, I find, to live in the south, in the areas these companies once served. Now I am sure that there are plenty of exceptions, but I would be surprised if the majority weren't squarely based in these southern counties.

 

Why, then, the relative prominence of these companies in the hobby.  Does the North lack the same number of modellers, do they lack the affluence of their southern counterparts, or might it possibly be that sections of the industry are London-south-centric?

 

There are problems, I think, with each of those possible answers.  In my experience, the North, as a society and an economy, largely just gets on with it, self-reliant and self-sufficient, so why has it not given rise to a higher proportion of specifically Northern and North-Eastern subjects?  It has taken TMC, a business based in the region, to keep the ball rolling; I have questioned before the relevance of a topic on NER RTR to Hornby.

 

Is what people model a question of what people want, or is it, in part at least, a question of what's on offer?

 

Is what's on offer skewed towards some subjects and away from others, and, if so, why might that be?

[coachmann]

I think spending power and habits have got more to do with it than route mileage.  South and Midlands folk are better off financially plus their outlook differs. If Hornby's Q6 was a financial success, another loco might follow when the climate is right.

[brack]

I suspect if you think rationally about it there shouldn't be much of a market for a Caley Single, the P2, Duke of Gloucester, the diesel prototypes or a great many other locos which have been offered RTR. If you pick an attractive prototype and produce a nice model a lot of people will buy one because just because it's nice. I suspect most of the pretty lined secr and lbsc locos sold aren't going to be running on pre grouping layouts.

 

If someone chose to produce a nice NER loco, especially one of the daintier ones, I think it'd make its own market. For that matter I could see a run of something as daft/obscure a choice (on the face of it) as FR no. 20 selling.

[mikemeg]

Offering the converse argument of this thread, it is interesting that North Eastern Kits (Arthur Kimber) has introduced etched kits for both versions of the J72 - short and long bunker - and this despite Bachmann re-engineering and re-releasing its r-t-r model of this type.

 

The half way house, at least as far as the J72 goes, is to use the Bachmann body on the High Level Models chassis kit.

 

As for the comment, somewhere above, that a kit built model 'will stand out like a sore thumb' against r-t-r equivalents, there are a few builders who will quite happily pitch their work against any of the r-t-r models. It isn't the building which is generally the differentiator, it is the painting, lining and marking which is so difficult to match.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Edwardian]

I think spending power and habits have got more to do with it than route mileage.  South and Midlands folk are better off financially plus their outlook differs. If Hornby's Q6 was a financial success, another loco might follow when the climate is right.

 

You may be right.

 

I genuinely don't understand why what I suspect is a largely regional following in the South sustains multiple RTR releases of Southern constituent locomotives (and some coaches), whereas the North does not do so for the companies formerly based there.  

 

It's not just the North, of course. We are now seeing a couple of Scottish locomotives on the way, but that nation's railways will even then be severely under-represented.  What of Wales? We have long had a GW design in the S. Wales tradition in the form of the 5600, but not a lot else.

 

Can regions outside the SE simply not sustain models of prototypes relevant to their region, or do we, at least to an extent, model what we get?  There must be something of modelling what's available where we are talking of the RTR market. In which case, is what we get in part the product of an unconscious bias on the part of the industry? 

 

I don't know, but there must surely be a reason or reasons.

 

Of course there are exceptions to regional bias.  In a comparison virtually guaranteed to offend virtually everyone, the Great Western has been something of the Manchester United of railway companies in having an appeal well beyond its borders.  The trunk route lines embrace both North and South, of course, but I wonder, for instance, whether the Great Northern enthusiasts' spending power is concentrated at the Doncaster end, or, say, in affluent Herts?

[Jol Wilkinson]

Offering the converse argument of this thread, it is interesting that North Eastern Kits (Arthur Kimber) has introduced etched kits for both versions of the J72 - short and long bunker - and this despite Bachmann re-engineering and re-releasing its r-t-r model of this type.

 

The half way house, at least as far as the J72 goes, is to use the Bachmann body on the High Level Models chassis kit.

 

As for the comment, somewhere above, that a kit built model 'will stand out like a sore thumb' against r-t-r equivalents, there are a few builders who will quite happily pitch their work against any of the r-t-r models. It isn't the building which is generally the differentiator, it is the painting, lining and marking which is so difficult to match.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

I think that it is readily possible for the amateur to create good finishes on models.

 

This photo shows two locos, one professionally painted and lined, the other painted by an amateur and lined using transfers. While it is possible to see which is which, the results are sufficiently close that nobody has ever commented on a difference.

 

 

While it is difficult to match tampo pad printing by hand lining without some experience, modern model transfers do give very good result, so I consider that being unable to match RTR finish is just another excuse for not having a go at creating your own, unique, model from the wealth of kits available.

 

For example, will any RTR manufacturer produce a NER G1 (LNER D23)?. Probably not, but if they did it would be amazing how many people would suddenly realise they have wanted/needed one for many years.

 

[mikemeg]

I think that it is readily possible for the amateur to create good finishes on models.

 

For example, will any RTR manufacturer produce a NER G1 (LNER D23)?. Probably not, but if they did it would be amazing how many people would suddenly realise they have wanted/needed one for many years.

 

 

 

Jol,

 

Re your final sentence, yes. Especially in that very beautiful livery.

 

The B16/1 and D20 might be also be very appealling propositions. They were very long lived and, certainly with the B16/1, they 'got about a bit'.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited August 24, 2018 by mikemeg

[phil gollin]

You may be right.

 

I genuinely don't understand why what I suspect is a largely regional following in the South sustains multiple RTR releases of Southern constituent locomotives (and some coaches), whereas the North does not do so for the companies formerly based there.  ...................................................................................

.

 

That must be about the twentieth time that sentiment has been expressed on this thread, and each time the replies have been variations on "success breeds success" and "if a model sells out it encourages similar", etc .....

 

There is constant repetition of the refrain, but nothing positive seems to happen.

 

As suggested, why don't the 4, or 5, posters form a specialist board for the North East, encourage people to join and concentrate on "rewarding" manufacturers who produce NE items by selling them out on pre-order.

 

DO SOMETHING.

 

.

[Andy Hayter]

I have some understanding with your view Phil, but I cannot buy up on pre-order something that does not exist (TCM excluded where I have pre-ordered).

 

WE are back to the chicken and egg situation and I have to say from a personal viewpoint, I find the confusion between NER (North Eastern Railway) and BR (NER) (BR ( North Eastern Region)) unhelpful.  It confuses the argument at times - witness the fact that we have a Q6 from Hornby.  Yes we have a late version LNER Q6 but not a T2.

[Big James]

I’ve been reading this with interest I model the BR(SR) so you are more then welcome to tell me to Butt out. But as a suggestion why don’t the guys lobbying Hornby approach one of the crowdfunders about having a D20 done. Then if it sells out see about on of the other NER classes.

 

Big James

Edited August 24, 2018 by Big James

[brack]

Theres always going to be an element of X sold well therefore we'll make Y on the manufacturer's part.

Trouble is that I wouldn't have picked the Q6 first. It is a pretty specialised type that spent almost its entire career on coal traffic, even if you were picking a loco for that the J27 would be more suited to the size/location portrayed of most layouts and would be simple to develop into a J26 and (with a touch more work) J25 model.

Had a more versatile type been picked first (J21?) then it's sales might've been better and led to further models. I have no idea how the Q6 has sold, but on the face of it it isn't the NER type I'd have picked first. If it hasn't sold well you can only assume that would put manufacturers off further NER prototypes.

[south_tyne]

You may be right.

 

I genuinely don't understand why what I suspect is a largely regional following in the South sustains multiple RTR releases of Southern constituent locomotives (and some coaches), whereas the North does not do so for the companies formerly based there.

 

It's not just the North, of course. We are now seeing a couple of Scottish locomotives on the way, but that nation's railways will even then be severely under-represented. What of Wales? We have long had a GW design in the S. Wales tradition in the form of the 5600, but not a lot else.

 

Can regions outside the SE simply not sustain models of prototypes relevant to their region, or do we, at least to an extent, model what we get? There must be something of modelling what's available where we are talking of the RTR market. In which case, is what we get in part the product of an unconscious bias on the part of the industry?

 

I don't know, but there must surely be a reason or reasons.

 

Of course there are exceptions to regional bias. In a comparison virtually guaranteed to offend virtually everyone, the Great Western has been something of the Manchester United of railway companies in having an appeal well beyond its borders. The trunk route lines embrace both North and South, of course, but I wonder, for instance, whether the Great Northern enthusiasts' spending power is concentrated at the Doncaster end, or, say, in affluent Herts?

Interesting thoughts.

 

The counter to this is of course Cornwall... in many ways, both economically and socially, it has more in common with the North East than many other areas of the country. Yet they have a far superior choice of RTR models available for their local area. Now much of this has been championed and driven by one business in Kernow Models but this isn't the exclusive reason.

 

So what is the difference? Do Cornish railways have a greater following from ex-pats and 'outsiders' than the NER? I would suggest so. Why is that? Is it the holiday factor? Sunshine? Romance of a far flung location? Probably a combination of the above. But Cornwall is certainly no more affluent than the North East. Indeed the reliance on tourism and low paid seasonal work, combined with high house prices, problems with second/holiday home ownership, poor transport links and lack of a major city/conurbation mean economically it is worse off than up here. Despite that, when it comes to toy trains they have a multitude of choice from the Beattie Well Tank,13xx panniers, the Class 22 and all the diesel hydraulic locos. In some ways just as eclectic and localised as NER prototypes.

 

Can TMC become the North East equivalent of Kernow? Possibly, but the G5 will be a good test of the market, capacity and profitability...

 

There are other more peripheral areas that are equally as poorly served and maybe the remoteness from London,from the market, critical mass and spending power of the South East has something to do with it. I had never thought of that but it is a great hypothesis. Think the GNoS Railway, Highland, some of the South Wales lines(??) as initial examples.

 

As a counter, you can model the railways of the Isle of White using RTR items until your heart is content. Is that influenced by the affluence of the South? Or more by the holiday/sunshine/romance thing again? It certainly cannot be due to the population of the IoW itself! I don't have an answer, just musing...

Edited August 25, 2018 by south_tyne

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...The problem with the LNER in general is that—never having much money—there was little standardisation and even some of the "standard" locos weren't exactly widespread (e.g. the D49). Most of the standard classes have been modelled at one time or another. Of the pre-grouping classes, one GNR (N2), two GC (J11 and O4), two GE with another on the way (D11, J15, N7), two NE with another on the way (J72, Q6, G5) and just one NB on the way (J36). I've ignored the J52 (GN) and J83 (NB) which aren't up to modern standards.

 

 Just for completeness, by the same standard, it is actually seven GNR (A1, C1, J50, K3, N2, O2, Stirling single) one GER with another two on the way (J15, J70, N7) three GCR (D11, J11, O4). Of the southern area LNER trio, the GNR provision particularly lacks the  J6 0-6-0,  and the GCR a tank engine, the A5 or N5 would be good choices. As for the GER, with two rather good models of LNER rebuilds (B12/3, D16/3) another tender loco that remained in largely GER period condition would probably be welcome: the E4 2-4-0 gets frequent mentions: and it's a wheel arrangement not yet seen in RTR, and a very pretty machine. 

 

Back to NER, the B16 worked onto all three of these areas in the LNER and BR periods, (which is me seconding Mr Goddard's suggestion).

[mikemeg]

Because I model in P4, I have oft times bemoaned the fact that I can't buy a r-t-r model, take it out of the box and just run it. I must either convert  r-t-r models, kit build, or build from scratch.

 

But, then again, because I have to build, then I do have quite a few representatives of other ex-North Eastern classes.

 

So if it helps the discussion as to likely candidates for r-t-r models of ex North Eastern prototypes, here's the B16/1 with just a few details to add, though very much in its later LNER / British Railways guise. The North Eastern Class S3 as originally built, this is not.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Edited August 27, 2018 by mikemeg