RTR North Eastern Railway Locomotives - A discussion.

[Les1952]

Just to throw a statistic into the mix.

 

The Southern Railway loco stock was about 2390.

 

The North Eastern Railway handed 2156 locos to the LNER plus another 181 inherited from the Hull & Barnsley.

 

In terms of route miles the NER was very similar in size to the whole of the Southern.

 

Just a thought

Les

[Compound2632]

... and to put that into perspective, the North Eastern Railway was the fourth of the pre-Grouping "big four", after The London and North Western, Midland, and Great Western. (The exact order depends on the metric: route miles, revenue, locomotive stock, goods wagon stock...)

[phil gollin]

..... . Consensus seems to be going for 3 types of NER Clerestory coaches and some wagons, the 20T wooden hopper and the birdcage brake van.  .....

.

 

You're being a bit previous.

 

That "consensus" is one of only 5 or 6 people, it is unlikely to impress any RTR manufacturer.

 

As with the real need being to ensure some sell outs on pre-orders for the announced locos, you need to concentrate on organising votes for the next wishlist.

 

Just imagining that everything will work is optimistic in the extreme.

 

.

[Edwardian]

The market is evolving, but slowly.

 

The lead-in will be a locomotive.  A National Collection commission of something special. I'd have said the M Class (Shildon), but, actually, the Tenant (North Road) might prove charismatic enough to be the pioneer here.  A very attractive subject with a Race to the North tie-in.

 

Then, the other side of some ECJS/GN 6-wheelers, other things become possible.  I predict that, eventually, we'll have NER clerestories, but the market is not ready for it yet; it will take time and other things happening first.

 

But, I have to give the crystal ball back now ...

[south_tyne]

.

 

You're being a bit previous.

 

That "consensus" is one of only 5 or 6 people, it is unlikely to impress any RTR manufacturer.

 

As with the real need being to ensure some sell outs on pre-orders for the announced locos, you need to concentrate on organising votes for the next wishlist.

 

Just imagining that everything will work is optimistic in the extreme.

 

.

Agreed there is no concensus... it's ultimately the problem with the internet and wishlist polls - sometimes those who shout loudest appear to represent the majority. There is no personal criticism in that, or even connection with the current discussion, just a general observation.

 

Just a thought (which I am not sure is true but could be) but in some ways does the market no actually suggest that a 'one off' might actually be better for a manufacturer than a run of the mill loco. The Stirling as an example, tied up with a partner?

 

A special, unique item might be more appealing to many buyers, particularly those who do not necessarily model that particular region or railway. For instance I bet if one of the NER Quayside electrics were produced RTR then lots of people would be tempted to buy one as a novelty one off, I would suggest many more than would be swayed to change to modelling the region by the release of a bog standard loco such as a J27. Charging £200 for the former is also realistic, compared to £100 for the latter and might be worth the commercial risk. Whilst the novelty loco may remain a 'shelf queen' that is of no concern to a Hornby (or any other company) and nor should it be.

[nathan70000]

This will be last major contribution to this topic until there is a major development, as I think everything I need to say has almost been said. But to the pessimists out there who think that it's "wildly optimistic" to hope for any more NE locos- would they have said that about the GE section a few years ago? In 2010, all that was available was the ancient B12 and B17. Flash forward to today, and both have been retooled, and the J15 and the D16 are now available with an N7 and a J70 (!) on the way. With the exception of the J69 and the J20, that's every common GE class covered, as well as one very obscure one. All appear to have sold well.

 

The fact of the matter is, manufacturers are simply running out of mainstream SR and GWR types. When you think about it, most of the post grouping types for the LMS and LNER have been covered as well. I don't doubt that some of these gaps will be filled before we see more obscure NER types appearing, but I think you're heading in to a territory just as niche, if not more niche, when you go in to the Southern pre-grouping types which covered a tiny area compared to the NER. We don't know sales figures but we can make an educated guess based on what's being discounted, sold out etc, and on the whole, the Q6 does not appear to be doing badly, so it would be somewhat foolish for Hornby NOT to consider further NE models. Bachmann's J72 must be doing well as it is being retooled in to what is shaping up to be one of the finest RTR models ever. In short, a potentially profitable gap exists, and if Hornby don't exploit it, than another manufacturer will. Either way, it's win-win for the North Easterly modeller...

 

Oh, and turning the question around, is there any recent Hornby model that can be said to be an absolute flop commercially?

[9402 Fredrick]

The G5 is a lovely addition too, hoping that we eventually get a J21, B16, Q7, and J27 plus some NER wagons & coaches, I feel the NER E1 model will sell loads as will the two NER O Class variants of the G5, so hoping to see an NER T3, S3, P3, & C1 variants as well as a T2 variant of the Hornby Q6, I've been wanting to model the NER for quite some time honestly.

[Fenman]

...

A special, unique item might be more appealing to many buyers, particularly those who do not necessarily model that particular region or railway. For instance I bet if one of the NER Quayside electrics were produced RTR then lots of people would be tempted to buy one as a novelty one off, I would suggest many more than would be swayed to change to modelling the region by the release of a bog standard loco such as a J27. Charging £200 for the former is also realistic, compared to £100 for the latter and might be worth the commercial risk. Whilst the novelty loco may remain a 'shelf queen' that is of no concern to a Hornby (or any other company) and nor should it be.

I completely agree with you. It’s a very cute loco with a distinctive shape, and one is preserved in the national collection. I also suspect this would sell very well to modellers and collectors from all regions, for the novelty value.

 

Paul

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...Consensus seems to be going for 3 types of NER Clerestory coaches and some wagons, the 20T wooden hopper and the birdcage brake van...

 

Without arguing about whether there is a consensus: if a RTR manufacturer announced the highlighted item, I'd take that as a clear sign that they are intending a real thrust at the NER interest. Above all other vehicles, this was the one that visibly informed you 'now on ex-NER territory'.

 

With most of the numerous steam locomotive classes running south of the Manchester-York line in the BR steam period now available or announced (significant omissions J6, J17, J69 'Austin 7' 3P 'Breadvan', LTSR 3P, SECR/SR 4-4-0, LBSCR K, would be my thought as the 'likelies') RTR manufacturers will have to look elsewhere for new loco subjects. The 'probes' are underway, with the Q6, J36, G5, Caley 0-6-0. Their comercial success - or otherwise - will determine what happens.

[phil gollin]

........ For instance I bet if one of the NER Quayside electrics were produced RTR then lots of people would be tempted to buy one as a novelty one off .....

.

 

OR,  .  .  .  .  

 

Bachmann could produce the North East (Tyneside) version of the 2-EPB (class 416/2), which was later transferred down to the Southern Region and worked the Richmond to Watford and West Croydon to Wimbledon lines.

 

There.  You can gain sales by doing the Southern Region version and still keep the NE fans happy !

 

 

.

[south_tyne]

.

 

OR, . . . .

 

Bachmann could produce the North East (Tyneside) version of the 2-EPB (class 416/2), which was later transferred down to the Southern Region and worked the Richmond to Watford and West Croydon to Wimbledon lines.

 

There. You can gain sales by doing the Southern Region version and still keep the NE fans happy !

 

 

.

Good thinking batman!!!

[Edwardian]

Once upon a time we had a splurge of Southern constituent locos. Later, as someone mentioned above, came lots of GE section locomotives. 

 

Many of these were produced by Hornby.  From the point of view of anyone interested in earlier conditions of these locomotives, they represented a missed opportunity.  Hornby specialised in modified late condition engines, often re-boilered at a higher pitch, and then filled the body shell up to the brim, making it very difficult indeed to back-date using the original chassis, e.g. Class 700, T9 and Claud.

 

One way in which the market has evolved since these models were released is in catering for in-service pre-Grouping condition locos by planning this into the tooling suite.

 

A prime example of this is the TMC O Class, of course. The Bachmann E1 release will also include the original condition, albeit only from the 1914 batch, not the 1898-9 originals.

 

Another trend that is really only just taking shape is the willingness to begin to tackle the deficit of suitable rolling stock.  If Locomotion provides stock to complement its Stirling Single, we may see the beginnings of a trend.

 

I suspect, therefore, that NER modellers will benefit from the fact that NE subjects have remained relatively neglected until now, allowing them to benefit from these very recent trends.

[south_tyne]

 

I suspect, therefore, that NER modellers will benefit from the fact that NE subjects have remained relatively neglected until now, allowing them to benefit from these very recent trends.

Interesting way of looking at it. As a silver lining too, I would also suggest we would benefit from the rising standards and specifications of models, being of a higher quality than if they had come forward ten years ago.

[coachmann]

We don't know how many people who buy locos because they are appealing and how many historical modellers buy loco becasue they fit their modelling period.  On top of that, we don't know how many are only interested in the loco or how many historical modellers would find 6-wheel coaches useful. Overall, it could be a smallish section of the railway modelling world and distinctly chancy for a mass-production company.  There is talk of missed opportunities, but while there are undoubtedly some, it is not always in areas that an individual would wish for. 

 

If a company is to take a gamble with 6-wheel GNR coaches, probably the best bet is just one coach to test the market and give collectors something to place on the shelf behind their Single. That coach could be a brake third with characteristic guards lookout that could be in GNR lined livery, LNER unlined livery and as a Departmental vehicle for use in the BR era. In short, it is attractive to the widest audience and its sales just might encourage a follow-up all third on the same chassis.

Edited July 29, 2018 by coachmann

[The Black Hat]

Once upon a time we had a splurge of Southern constituent locos. Later, as someone mentioned above, came lots of GE section locomotives. 

 

Many of these were produced by Hornby.  From the point of view of anyone interested in earlier conditions of these locomotives, they represented a missed opportunity.  Hornby specialised in modified late condition engines, often re-boilered at a higher pitch, and then filled the body shell up to the brim, making it very difficult indeed to back-date using the original chassis, e.g. Class 700, T9 and Claud.

 

One way in which the market has evolved since these models were released is in catering for in-service pre-Grouping condition locos by planning this into the tooling suite.

 

A prime example of this is the TMC O Class, of course. The Bachmann E1 release will also include the original condition, albeit only from the 1914 batch, not the 1898-9 originals.

 

Another trend that is really only just taking shape is the willingness to begin to tackle the deficit of suitable rolling stock.  If Locomotion provides stock to complement its Stirling Single, we may see the beginnings of a trend.

 

I suspect, therefore, that NER modellers will benefit from the fact that NE subjects have remained relatively neglected until now, allowing them to benefit from these very recent trends.

 

This is true, especially if your considering what is available since the age of super detail started, and then again with the advent of DCC. In terms of the engines releases there have been a lot of stock made and Phi's idea for the EMU is cheeky as it would give a unit that's more use for the Southern. Those modelling the north east are after engines that can be seen as common types, but a lot of them are polling well and would easily support the diversification of the main range focusing on the Southern and Western market.

 

I know that the range of engines now is far wider and much more varied than many would have thought 10 to 15 years ago. That the advantages with DCC offer much more in the terms of what can be done. Still, the market does require stock for various areas and NE Region polling well shows that this region can be a healthy addition to a company wanting a range that satisfies high demand away from the massively poll areas that all the companies are fighting it out for. The polls still matter as they are taken to be a good barometer of how the modelling community is reacting. What they do not show is the sudden drive for something that comes from a novelty item, such as 4 wheel GNR stock because of the Sterling Single release.

 

If you look at those on the shelves there's popular Southern engines that are from the range that are not being bought as people run out to get other engines that are new, such a lot of the shop commissions. Bachmann are also pushing the Midland area, and releasing a lot of engines that can supplement their range as this area works much like the North East region could do. Against this you also have the fact that even prototype engines such as the Duke of Gloucester and the Sterling Single, as its an engine people are likely to only buy one of, have entered the market. Runs like this would previously have not been contemplated, but now they and other novelty engines are ones that people can go for. Many people will have gone for the Wainwright C class due to it looking nice in its pregrouping appearance and I have no doubt that the J21 could do the same. TMC agreed that the G5 would be the same and put the money up front, so the North East demand must be there in ways that some others are yet to realise is there.

 

While there might only be a little consensus with regards to the stock here, its a start. A few projects have been born out by the debates that forums and the like can generate and I think some might watch to see how products and releases go down with members. Even if three coaches, the 20T hopper and the breakvan were the only stock that was done, I think many would be well pleased. Heres hoping..

[Compound2632]

the 20T hopper and the breakvan 

 

The Slaters kits for these provide a perfect way to make the transition from merely buying to making. It is understood that the 20 ton hopper is front of the queue for re-release.

 

 

On next my round of painting and lettering, I'll be correcting the livery on these - NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY in place of N.E.R., thanks to Paul Gallon.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

This is true, especially if your considering what is available since the age of super detail started, and then again with the advent of DCC. In terms of the engines releases there have been a lot of stock made and Phi's idea for the EMU is cheeky as it would give a unit that's more use for the Southern. Those modelling the north east are after engines that can be seen as common types, but a lot of them are polling well and would easily support the diversification of the main range focusing on the Southern and Western market.

 

I know that the range of engines now is far wider and much more varied than many would have thought 10 to 15 years ago. That the advantages with DCC offer much more in the terms of what can be done. Still, the market does require stock for various areas and NE Region polling well shows that this region can be a healthy addition to a company wanting a range that satisfies high demand away from the massively poll areas that all the companies are fighting it out for. The polls still matter as they are taken to be a good barometer of how the modelling community is reacting. What they do not show is the sudden drive for something that comes from a novelty item, such as 4 wheel GNR stock because of the Sterling Single release.

 

If you look at those on the shelves there's popular Southern engines that are from the range that are not being bought as people run out to get other engines that are new, such a lot of the shop commissions. Bachmann are also pushing the Midland area, and releasing a lot of engines that can supplement their range as this area works much like the North East region could do. Against this you also have the fact that even prototype engines such as the Duke of Gloucester and the Sterling Single, as its an engine people are likely to only buy one of, have entered the market. Runs like this would previously have not been contemplated, but now they and other novelty engines are ones that people can go for. Many people will have gone for the Wainwright C class due to it looking nice in its pregrouping appearance and I have no doubt that the J21 could do the same. TMC agreed that the G5 would be the same and put the money up front, so the North East demand must be there in ways that some others are yet to realise is there.

 

While there might only be a little consensus with regards to the stock here, its a start. A few projects have been born out by the debates that forums and the like can generate and I think some might watch to see how products and releases go down with members. Even if three coaches, the 20T hopper and the breakvan were the only stock that was done, I think many would be well pleased. Heres hoping..

 

Good points.

 

Consensus is overrated and polls only tell you what people know they want, not what they will want if it's announced!

 

The trick is picking the right thing!

[BMacdermott]

Consensus is overrated and polls only tell you what people know they want, not what they will want if it's announced!

 

The trick is picking the right thing!

 

Hello Edwardian

 

To the best of our knowledge, only two items have been announced that we haven't had in The Poll: the Oxford Rail Gun and the Kernow PRA Wagon. (Hornby's LSWR coaches weren't in The Poll but were in the draft just prior to them being announced and were consequently deleted. There may also have been an underground item prior to us listing that category.)

 

With the possibility of 30,000+ items in any poll, we don't think we have done too badly.

 

Bearing in mind that we can't please all of the people all of the time, we think pollsters will be very happy with the many new Pre-group items that we will be listing.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[coachmann]

Polls are fun, but lets not get carried away.  A large proportion of locos, coaches and wagons come as a complete surprise to hobbyists when they are announced. Remarks like "Wow......Wasn't expecting that....My poor wallet......" show that people do not know what they want until they are told. 

Edited July 31, 2018 by coachmann

[Steamport Southport]

.

 

OR,  .  .  .  .  

 

Bachmann could produce the North East (Tyneside) version of the 2-EPB (class 416/2), which was later transferred down to the Southern Region and worked the Richmond to Watford and West Croydon to Wimbledon lines.

 

There.  You can gain sales by doing the Southern Region version and still keep the NE fans happy !

 

 

.

 

I plan on converting one of my DC Kits 2EPBs into one of those. Doesn't seem to be that much of an ordeal.

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Les1952]

This is true, especially if your considering what is available since the age of super detail started, and then again with the advent of DCC. In terms of the engines releases there have been a lot of stock made and Phi's idea for the EMU is cheeky as it would give a unit that's more use for the Southern. Those modelling the north east are after engines that can be seen as common types, but a lot of them are polling well and would easily support the diversification of the main range focusing on the Southern and Western market.

 

I know that the range of engines now is far wider and much more varied than many would have thought 10 to 15 years ago. That the advantages with DCC offer much more in the terms of what can be done. Still, the market does require stock for various areas and NE Region polling well shows that this region can be a healthy addition to a company wanting a range that satisfies high demand away from the massively poll areas that all the companies are fighting it out for. The polls still matter as they are taken to be a good barometer of how the modelling community is reacting. What they do not show is the sudden drive for something that comes from a novelty item, such as 4 wheel GNR stock because of the Sterling Single release.

 

If you look at those on the shelves there's popular Southern engines that are from the range that are not being bought as people run out to get other engines that are new, such a lot of the shop commissions. Bachmann are also pushing the Midland area, and releasing a lot of engines that can supplement their range as this area works much like the North East region could do. Against this you also have the fact that even prototype engines such as the Duke of Gloucester and the Sterling Single, as its an engine people are likely to only buy one of, have entered the market. Runs like this would previously have not been contemplated, but now they and other novelty engines are ones that people can go for. Many people will have gone for the Wainwright C class due to it looking nice in its pregrouping appearance and I have no doubt that the J21 could do the same. TMC agreed that the G5 would be the same and put the money up front, so the North East demand must be there in ways that some others are yet to realise is there.

 

While there might only be a little consensus with regards to the stock here, its a start. A few projects have been born out by the debates that forums and the like can generate and I think some might watch to see how products and releases go down with members. Even if three coaches, the 20T hopper and the breakvan were the only stock that was done, I think many would be well pleased. Heres hoping..

 

perhaps as these one-offs seem so popular, we should be badgering someone to do "Aerolite"....

 

Les

[nathan70000]

Wouldn't be surprised if Aerolite is Rapido's next NRM, especially as at one point they were looking at returning it to steam.

[Edwardian]

Hello Edwardian

 

To the best of our knowledge, only two items have been announced that we haven't had in The Poll: the Oxford Rail Gun and the Kernow PRA Wagon. (Hornby's LSWR coaches weren't in The Poll but were in the draft just prior to them being announced and were consequently deleted. There may also have been an underground item prior to us listing that category.)

 

With the possibility of 30,000+ items in any poll, we don't think we have done too badly.

 

Bearing in mind that we can't please all of the people all of the time, we think pollsters will be very happy with the many new Pre-group items that we will be listing.

 

Brian (on behalf of The Poll Team)

 

As I think you know from previous posts of mine, I have a lot of respect for the poll.  It is a very large and important part of the story in terms of what gets made, but there is a small but interesting space that lies outside what people have asked for.

[phil gollin]

.

 

.......and Phi's idea for the EMU is cheeky as it would give a unit that's more use for the Southern. .....

 

.

.

 

Pointed maybe, but not "cheeky".  You want more models suitable for the NE and now turn your nose up at a possible model because it's useful for another region !   That is ridiculous.  Anything that makes a model more commercially attractive is good.

 

.

[The Black Hat]

.

 

Pointed maybe, but not "cheeky".  You want more models suitable for the NE and now turn your nose up at a possible model because it's useful for another region !   That is ridiculous.  Anything that makes a model more commercially attractive is good.

 

.

 

Its not a case of turning my nose up at a possible model for the NE, its because clearly if the model was made it would be primarily for its Southern use first and the north east second.

 

If anyone was wanting this unit, they would have to be modelling the 3rd rail network in and around Newcastle. Already that has narrowed the sphere of its appeal in the north east dramatically, as they would be useless for anyone modelling other areas of the same region. That means that your suburban Newcastle layout, also is going to be framed on when these units were operating, again, removing the appeal to those modelling Newcastle as these units were replaced by DMUs later.

 

Its a simple matter of geography that the 3rd rail network 'up north' is limited in both terms of period of operation and its size. Compared to the Southern region where the network is massive. So anyone wanting this model would piggyback on its release for the Southern region. Instead, to get a model made for the north east, it should pitch to the regional area as a whole and not limit itself to a narrow part of its use. That's why engines being selected are covering the period from late pre-grouping to end of steam, and were seen across the entire region - a region that on its own is the same size of the grouped southern region and its a fact I have mentioned previously that one shed on its own like Darlington would have been the equivalent of a pre-grouping Southern region company.

 

There have been plenty of engines that have been released that can make up part of the regional fleet that are made for other areas but have the benefit of also running in the North East. Engines like O1, Ivatt 4MT, Ivatt 2MT, Fairburn tanks, all have been done for other areas, yet were seen in the area. Diesel and DMU stock again is very widespread but can be used to model the area, giving you a mix of engines that can form a fleet, particularly if your modelling transition period or grouping, with many group standards like B1, A3, A4, L1, also having been done.

 

The idea is that indigenous releases for the North East, much like other areas that seem to be overlooked like Scotland, can have an engine made every two years or so that would slowly fill the gaps here, while letting companies still concentrate on the main areas, but still risk duplication. After some engines came out popular in the polls, it remains that those for the North East are viable, when compared to those looking for other engines elsewhere. When you consider that in the last poll, pre-grouping designs for the north east and great eastern were some of the more popular ones voted for are similar in popularity to some Southern group standard designs mixed amongst other pre-grouping ones.

 

For example a SECR D1 was given 201, but the equivalent NER machine being a J21 got 195. The K-class LBSCR was 247 to the NER's J27 244. The LSWR G6 received 155 and while the NE has the J72 on order a much requested machine is B16/0 165.

 

So given the polling NER machines are in similar terms to some designs of other regions, but given the direction of the market and the amount of commissions being done, I can imagine which of these is more likely to be made first. Perhaps it also shows that TMCs entry with the G5 is more well founded than others think and then if that's the case, some NER machines could follow over time, but so too should the idea that an engine such as J21 can light the spark that will push a need for stock to match it much like the Sterling Single effect for the GN.

 

A company looking to make models for the North East, must be choosing a type that covers the whole region to maximise geographical interest and a type that lasted from NER to end of steam, to maximise potential scenes of operation. That is why a lot of later NER machines are coming to the fore, but given how big the NER area was, it shows that there's many reasons why a model for here would be still very successful.