Thinking of taking the plunge

[Pete the Elaner]

@@silenthill4mm This is the link for my layout on Twitter. Since Photobucket threw a wobbly, I havn't uploaded any pictures to this forum, and to be honest, I have no idea how to now!

I was not aware that you can.

Many of us have switched to Flickr since Photobucket started charging. After getting used to it, Flickr is easier to use.

[Marcyg]

As Nigel said previously you can have as many handsets as you like but it doesn't seem to me to make sense to only allocate one handset to one district. For instance, what happens if you want to run a loco from say the outer or inner loops into your MPD? The benefit of DCC means you can do this on one handset. It is a real mindset change - you are not controlling tracks you are operating individual locomotives.

Having been involved with DCC in one way or another for close on 15 years I would stress the absolute need to try different systems, have a play with them first. You rarely get 2 people who rate a system the same, it's what you feel comfortable and suits you.

I think there is a bit of confusion on this one. I'd use 1 handset per line in the main. For trains which cross multiple lines/zones, i'd use the same controller. For example, an engine crossing from the up main, right across all lines to the TMD, would use the same controller. Once that loco has come to rest, the controller would go back to running the up main. I wouldn't be flicking between controller dependant on zones, id use them in multiples just so I could keep tabs on everything. Keeping controllers explicitly to a zone isn't what I intended at all. If I have 6 trains going round and need to do things with them in quick succession, I don't think I could remember which loco is which never mind being able to type a number in that quick.

[traction]

If you like sounds then be very careful which system you go for!

I have many DCC systems and IMHO none that I have are very good for function control.

 

The Hornby Elite will make you want to throw it out of the window when trying to operate many sound functions,

I actually plug the Selects in and use them as walkabouts and to operate sounds as it’s easier.

 

As a starter set have a look at the Signa-Track ACE 5amp system as that to me has one of the best control screens for operating sound functions.

It is going to be Loconet compatible so Digitrax throttles might be possible, but other Loconet devices should be OK.

You can also get driver handsets from Signa-track that locos can be assigned to, up to 4 can be connected.

Go to there web site and down load the instruction manual and the update manual.

 

I would go to shops and have a play with as many as you can, download the manuals and have a read, if you struggle following the manual, think how you will get on with it.

Above all go test some with sound locos and see what fits you best.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited March 8, 2018 by traction

[Phil S]

I think there is a bit of confusion on this one. I'd use 1 handset per line in the main. For trains which cross multiple lines/zones, i'd use the same controller. For example, an engine crossing from the up main, right across all lines to the TMD, would use the same controller. Once that loco has come to rest, the controller would go back to running the up main. I wouldn't be flicking between controller dependant on zones, id use them in multiples just so I could keep tabs on everything. Keeping controllers explicitly to a zone isn't what I intended at all. If I have 6 trains going round and need to do things with them in quick succession, I don't think I could remember which loco is which never mind being able to type a number in that quick.

Phil: You do still seem to be confused as to the flexibility and allocation of handsets !  Please stop trying to think in terms of track-related Analogue 'cab' control - because with DCC you Do GET TRUE 'Cab Control' - the Driver's experience - hence Americans often referring to handsets as Cabs.

 

To take the example of the Roco Multimaus (commonly available, and a simulator downloadable from the Roco.cc webiste) - which uses Lenz's Expressnet Bus and is therefore usable on many systems) - it has a 5 Character 'LARGE PRINT' Name or Number Display - (and the latest WiFI LAN Black version can cope with 10 character names) - each handset will clearly display the LOCO you have selected to control on it -  as well as the Direction of movement and more..   So no real confusion of which handset is controlling which loco at the time.  

YES, it is easy to take control form one handset to another - by selecting the loco on the new controller  [loco symbols flash on both controllers as a warning] , and then moving the speed knob on (the new) controller takes over the control...  But surely - unless handing over to a depot-restricted driver - the original operator will complete the loco-diagram, and return to shed, or whatever ??

 

SOME people find it useful to attach ID CARDS to their controllers, with a rubber band, as an aide-memoire, with all the functions listed too!  - Useful also for multiple operators to see who is controlling what 8-)

 

AS FOR SECTIONS:  Consider the division into Power Districts or Sub Districts to be PURELY A MAINTENANCE FUNCTION: it should not affect NORMAL operation at any time !!!   UNLIKE Analogue Cab control, sections in DCC ARE NOT there to provide mobility or flexibility in parking locos in sheds etc - the reasoning behind them is totally different....

 

Power or SUB Districts (or both): To answer this, we need to look at your layout's TOTAL DCC current consumption: This will depend on GAUGE, INCLINES, Number of Locos ON the layout at one time, Number of MOVING locos on the layout at one time, and the quantity of ILLUMINATED STOCK and Sound-fitted stock on the layout at one time ...  AND HOW you POWER your points/accessories.... some point motors (eg Peco Solenoid) take large currents to operate - AND some Accessory Decoders take their power from the DCC (Accessory) bus .... requiring the ability for a large current for a short time from the DCC controller BUT CDU Accessory Decoders, or those which take their power from a separate (eg 16Vac) power bus .. DO NOT add noticeably to the DCC LOAD.  Note that the 'SIZE' of the layout does NOT affect (directly) the Power Requirement !!  It's whats ON the layout that does!!

POWER DISTRICTS?: ie Central Controller PLUS (additional) Boosters - EACH WITH THEIR OWN POWER SUPPLY !

IF your current requirement is greater than 3-5A, then you will need additional booster(s), and HAVE TO SPLIT your layout into power-districts = each POWERED by either the Central Controller's Own output or an additional booster: BUT ALL ARE CONTROLLED via the Central Controller. (The 3-5A limit is a by product of safety regs. For 'larger' scales 5,8,10,12A outputs are available)

 

AS AN EXAMPLE: My Loft layout if 8m x 5m on 1.5 levels, and is split 'geographically' into 4x  3A Power Districts using Roco Amplifiers [which can also be used, without modification, as Boosters, if NO controller is plugged into 'the booster'] .. because I had plenty of these from Digital Starter Sets - and therefore many Multimaus handsets to plug in as Master(x1) and Slaves(many). The Boosters being linked ONLY by the 'Booster' cable.  [Historical Note: all are powered by regulated SMPS 18V 4A Power Supplies, and not the original (unregulated ) transformers supplied - this is relevent to ALL Roco Maus2/Multimaus Users with '764 amplifier - 18V SMPS supplies are now supplied as standard ] 

(2 Power Districts was my original plan when using a ZTC511(5A) and ZTC Booster (5A) ... for Scenic and Lower, Storage Levels]

 

Now the 'Scenic Level' of my layout is split into 3 Power Districts: 'Left', Main Station, and 'Right', and the 4th being  Storage Level.

I ALSO use RRampmeters to Monitor the DCC voltage and current - something I learnt to do when starting with Zero-1 30+ years ago.

THESE SHOW that the NORMAL quiescent current of my layout areas are 0.25A 0.25A 0.25A and 1.25A in the 'storage area' when full of illuminated stock! ... I COULD run my WHOLE LAYOUT from just the 1 Central Controller, with NO Boosters, JUST SUBdistricts !!   This is because I do NOT ADD any current for Solenoid Point Motors ... these are either via a separate 16Vac Power supply, or low-power digital types (Roco/Veissmann) ... only colour light signals will be adding their draw.

IT IS BENEFICIAL (for fault finding if nothing else) to have a Separate BUS distribution for Accessories, separated from the track - AND if these are run from the Central Controller itself, then the TRACKDCC is best taken from a 'Booster' output making it a separate power district ...leaving the accessories/points on the original Controller Bus output,  but a SUB_district (ie using the SAME dcc supply, just on a separated bus, would suffice, in my case.

 

THIS MEANS that in the event of a fault (and faults do happen in the real world) I can ISOLATE any one of these with a switch, and see immediately if that clears the problem - thus localising it:

 

FURTHER LOCALISATION is provided by SUB-DISTRICTS - in which the distributing DCC bus can be DISCONNECTED in a given area: eg My Main Station (Barnstaple Junction) has PLATFORMS, and SIDINGS - which can each be isolated by a local-switch breaking the bus distribution ... this makes it easier to locate a fault.         In general: ALL switches are ON ALWAYS - except when isolating to localise a fault.

 

With a MODULAR layout - it is logical to base each 'AREA' on a board: dcc power/bus is supplied to and through the board, and an ISOLATABLE connection (switch(es) to the distribution to the track(s). 

With a Multi-track Circular Loop Layout, you may prefer to base the sections on each 'running line' so that trains can continue to run round on the 'unaffected' lines.

 

NOTE; that with DCC, as the total area in 1 electrical section becomes greater, and therefore perhaps, the current rating of your controller increases ....  so too does the possible short-circuit current !!! - requiring 'thicker, heavier' wiring to ENSURE that is a SHORT occurs ANYWHERE on your layout, the Controller CUTS the power ...(rapidly).  [ The 'coin test' - see explanations elsewhere ]

 

Using 4 x 3A power districts, as I do in the loft, requires lighter wiring than a single 12A power district !! ( or 2 x 5A districts ) ...

If my normal max is 3A, then a short circuit might be 5-6A, momentarily  ...but for a 12A (eg garden system) the short current maybe 20 A and require a matching low-resistance path all around.  I ALSO sub-divide into Sub-districts; each of which is individually protected by a PSX intelligent circuit breaker, set to about 2A ... as I have never seen my normal usage reach that in 1 area!

(These also auto-reset every 2 seconds, making fault-finding and clearing much easier when away from the central switches)         Typically, as it forms 4 x single-track branches,  4-5 trains moving at once maximum.

 

HOW you actually wire the layout (and whether you become 'obsessed' by 'droppers' - DEPENDS on your GAUGE and then the CODE of your track, as well as other physical aspects of the layout and your bus-distributions:   Z or H0f  is very thin track, and so parallel bus wiring, and soldering to every piece of rail (not relying on tiny fishplates) is highly recommended !  IN N there is 55 and 85, or in -00/H0  Code 75, 83 and 100..... and if you glue ballast, then the glue will get into fishplates.... requiring more 'droppers'.

 

In the garden, with Code 320 LGB Brass Rail, the problem is more to ensure sufficient power in all weathers, over the years: fishplates with graphite/copper grease (or screw-clamps) , and multiple power feeds made with high-current 'loudspeaker' (low voltage) flex.  I have an 8A Dimax Central Controller, and can normally take 5-6A with several trains running with slight gradients.

 

Indoors, 'on the level' we can reduce the G Scale to 16Vdcc on track - by using the Roco Multimaus controllers/amplifiers - and this is more than sufficient for several 'smaller' LGB locos with sound, with only 1 or 2 moving at once (except when I stall the RhB Allegra 3-car unit which then trips the supply!  even at 14-18m long, this operates as 1 District from 1 Central Controller/Amplifier.

Typically 1 or 2 trains moving at once.

 

Alternatively, our 5.4m x 1.5m x 3-level H0 layout uses 1 Central Unit split into 3 SUB_DISTRICTS  (by level) - each with a PSX breaker, so that 'normal operation' can continue, if possible, on the other 2 levels when fault occurs ... and in addition, there is a 'tourist'/user independent loop running from a basic Roco Multimaus+Amplifier which keeps a train moving (or vice versa - is used for reprogramming during a show, without stopping anything on the main layout. Typically 3-4 trains moving at once.

 

I apologise for the length of the examples - but they demonstrate that there is no simple answer to how long is a piece of string - or what size wire to use (or what current rating controller to start with ) ... but each has its design consequences !!    Design for DCC operation, but also design for easy maintenance - don't produce a hybrid of 'analogue' and digital 'thinking' which results in the worst of both cases !

Edited March 9, 2018 by Phil S

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi Marcyg,

 

I'm sure you're well blown away by now with all the advice from fellow modellers, and maybe no further forwards in deciding whether to take the plunge. Don't worry it gets easier ..lol.

 

Your comment earlier about handsets and remembering loco numbers reminded me when I used to have the Lenz DCC system. That uses numbers to call up/select locos and IMO a bit outdated now. Here's a screen shot of the Z21 controller, this is on my iPad - there's also an App for a smart phone which looks similar and there are also Roco handsets available but not quite as intuitive as the App I think.

 

You'll see that loco numbers are not really needed in this case as pictures of the locos are clearly visible. Also I'm driving two locos at once. More than two can easily be driven simply by selecting another loco from the pictures along the bottom of the screen.

 

 

I'm posting this to demonstrate that with some systems you wouldn't necessarily need more than one handset, so saving on costs, unless you have mates round - in which case they can bring their own iPad, tablet or smart phones.

 

I hope you don't feel you're being pulled every which way with all the advice (you did ask..lol). I'm sure a lot of us would like to see you take the plunge if you think it suits. Anyway good luck with it all.

 

Cheers ... Alan

[Harry Lime]

Best thing to do would be to go and talk to either a local club or go to some of the local shows and see if they have any DCC layouts running there.

 

Unfortunately, we are too far away (Worthing) but at least two or three times each year we have people come to a club night to ask about DCC. We let them play with one of or DCC layouts and it helps to settle their minds about cab control, the "two-wires" issue and how to get going in the first place.

 

Again, when we take Loftus Road to exhibitions, we get people asking how we use DCC and we are quite happy to let peole have a go at driving trains, we show the underside of the baseboards so that they can see how it is wired and happily stand and talk about the pros and cons of various systems.

 

I think that until you have had a chance to play with some DCC kit and see what it is truly like, don't go making big decisions just yet...

[WIMorrison]

Can I suggest that you write down exactly what you want to achieve, possibly write it a few times as you may find that as you speak to people (e.g. Shows, exhibition, this forum) your knowledge will increase and you will find your requirements change - but having a written reminder is invaluable.

 

You then take this list to all the local shows and soak to the operators - especially the large layouts, where you will get lots of good practical advice and you can see and to touch the kit. Commercial suppliers are good, but few have large layouts that can show you how the system they are selling REALLY works, whereas a club or exhibition can show you exactly how it works.

 

When at the shows and exhibitions, friends, or shops take copious notes then compare to your requirements and finally after a few months make a decision - do not rush into this, as if you choose wrong then you will try to make it work and become extremely frustrated and disappointed with an excellent way to run, control and manage a model railway and get realistic operation

 

One last bit of advice? Don't think DC, other than making something go back and forward, there isn't really a similarity with the capability of DCC which is only limited by imagination (and wallet in my case )

Edited March 9, 2018 by WIMorrison

[GoingUnderground]

Some controllers give you nearly instaneous control over 10 locos simultaneously. I'm thinking of the ESU ECoS. The latest version has 5 amps output, and can be operated remotely from a smartphone or tablet using a free VNC client app if you wanted to go down that route.

 

But you said in one post that you were concerned about motors burning out. That will only happen if your DCC system allows you to run a loco without a decoder as "Loco 0" and you make use of the Loco 0 functionality. Any decoderless loco left sitting on powered DCC track runs the risk of having its motor burn out. Also, because of the way that the Loco 0 option works, every decoderless loco sitting on DCC powered track would respond as if it was the only Loco 0. Not all DCC systems have the Loco 0 facility, and the majority opinion amongst DCC experts is that it is not worth having. If you do want to test a new loco using DC after you've converted to DCC just keep your existing DC controller and connect it to a short length of test track, and make sure that test track is totally electrically isolated at all times from powered DCC track. DC and DCC controllers don't play nicely together.

 

So my advice would be to fit decoders to your locos but keep the layout DC powered and all your section switches in place until you feel that you have enough decoder fitted locos to replace the DC power/ controllers with a DCC controller. This approach does mean your choice of decoder will be limited to those that do work with DC as not all of them do. There is a theoretical risk that a DC controller could, in certain circumstances produce a voltage spike that could damage a decoder. But that is generally considered to be very unlikely with more recent models of DC controllers.

 

When you eventually make the change over to a DCC controller at that point remove all decoderless locos from the layout.

 

Do take the advice that others have given about trying different DCC systems before you buy one. It really is important advice.

[Dagworth]

Good point really. At some point I'll upload some pictures of it so people can what im on about. With regards to more potential, each train in the yard fiddle yard has its own road. Some take the full length, some don't. In the roads that are not fully occupied, I could have 2 trains of different length stored there without resorting to large amounts of section breaks. Also, my station is designed to be a change over point between diesel and AC traction, the ability to move locos around would be highly advantageous here, also breaking and joining mulitiple units. The TMD, which is built for DC, has a large number of section breaks. Whilst it looks good, the ability to run 1 loco right up to the face of another is something you see a lot in real depots, but something I cant do on DC. Lastly, most importantly, my wife likes the noises! Although if I have sound chips in all 120 locos she might not find it quite as appealing

Ooo! That sounds a bit familiar....

 

Dagworth was based on operations at Ipswich when that was a changeover point from AC electrics to diesels on the Norwich - London services. We ran it using Lenz DCC and the most effective way it work was with one driver looking after the 47 and another with a different handset working the 86.

 

https://youtu.be/er4iNSQhVIg?t=149

 

Andi

[Marcyg]

Ooo! That sounds a bit familiar....

 

Dagworth was based on operations at Ipswich when that was a changeover point from AC electrics to diesels on the Norwich - London services. We ran it using Lenz DCC and the most effective way it work was with one driver looking after the 47 and another with a different handset working the 86.

 

https://youtu.be/er4iNSQhVIg?t=149

 

Andi

I remember Dagworth well. Was a great layout and I remember being impressed with how smooth everything run. Silent Hill is based around the Willesden area of London, so a bit far away from Dagworth.

[Marcyg]

Thanks for the help and advice peeps. I spoke to someone over the weekend about it, who has gone down the Digitrax route and is very impressed with it. It's taken him 2 years to get a layout running, but he said its very enjoyable and would never go back to DC. I have bought a starter set, an NCE Powercab. Namely, because it was the cheapest out of the 'decent' systems and if I decide DCC isn't for me, I can sell it without much in the way of loss. I've been told its a good set to get started with and to learn from. Whether I decide to use it for the whole layout, I really don't know yet, but I'm trying a small loop first and see how I get on. I do plan on looking into a club, the Gresley and Wychnor is close to me and I believe they have a DCC layout so I may pay them a visit soon.

[Marcyg]

Well, thanks for all the help and advice folks, I really appreciate it and it really helped. I have done an awful lot of research, to the point I feel I could pass a masters degree in electronics. I have also had a play on a friends layout, as I still only have my short test track. I've decided the way I'm going to go with it. DCC control of locomotives. I really, really like any loco, any where, any time. The lights control is a nice thing and my wife loves the sound option. She was really made up by Mallard, as it was a loco she bought me and seeing it do all those things impressed her greatly. One of the aspects of DC I really hated was speed matching controllers. I could never get it right and it looks horrid. The point control will be traditional. CDU's, control panel, switches etc. I know some of you will now throw yourselves back in your chairs, aghast with 'why is he only going half arsed?'. My friends layout is built in this way, and  to say I enjoyed it is an understatement. His words were 'If I wanted full automation or computer control, I buy a smaller house, a decent PC and a train sim game and save myself a shed load of money'. With his layout you have the flexibility of movement, but you still feel like your playing trains. I was undecided by DCC but his layout has thrown it for me. So, thanks again for all your help and advice. I'm sure Ill be asking more questions soon

[Andymsa]

Hi,

 

I know you decided with a traditional panel over a computer, but before you completely commit if your layout is large then you should really consider at least part automation. This way you can have trains running under the computer on the main lines and manual control where needs be. With a computer things can be so much more versatile, sometimes I just like to sit back and just watch the trains do there thing with a drink in hand. Very relaxing indeed.

 

Andy

[PenrithBeacon]

Is there a book for newbies to DCC?

[WIMorrison]

Lots of them on Amazon and Google

 

This one looks reasonable, but you need to watch as many of those I have seen have been more focuses on individual systems rather than DCC in general, and not all systems are equal - as this thread shows

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Command-Control-Definitive-Guide/dp/071103785X

 

I have actually found that reading sites such as this, then searching the eponymous Google has enabled me to find out more than an individual book can offer.

[Ron Ron Ron]

Is there a book for newbies to DCC?

 

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Digital-Command-Control-Definitive-Guide/dp/071103785X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521325449&sr=1-1&keywords=digital+command+control

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Practical-Introduction-Digital-Command-Modellers/dp/1847970206/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521325449&sr=1-2&keywords=digital+command+control

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DCC-Made-Easy-Railroad-Railroader/dp/0890246165/ref=sr_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1521325449&sr=1-7&keywords=digital+command+control

 

 

 

.

[Pete the Elaner]

The point control will be traditional. CDU's, control panel, switches etc. I know some of you will now throw yourselves back in your chairs, aghast with 'why is he only going half arsed?'

Not at all. Nothing wrong with that. Build your layout how you want.

I also use a traditional control panel with buttons & CDUs for point control because I enjoy wiring & don't see what advantage DCC can give me for this.

[Marcyg]

Hi,

 

I know you decided with a traditional panel over a computer, but before you completely commit if your layout is large then you should really consider at least part automation. This way you can have trains running under the computer on the main lines and manual control where needs be. With a computer things can be so much more versatile, sometimes I just like to sit back and just watch the trains do there thing with a drink in hand. Very relaxing indeed.

 

Andy

Having at least the outer mainline automated was something I looked into before I decided to go DCC, using Heathcote electronics. I may look into that again as I relayed the fiddle yard for this line into a simple ladder type for this purpose

[trustytrev]

Is there a book for newbies to DCC?

Hello,

        You may find joining MERG of interest as it gives you access to all sorts of railway modelling control and operation stuff. That is ordinary old fashioned dc through to DCC and everything else in between. There is a vast amount of information available and very helpful fellow members on the forum too. "The Electronics for Model Railways" by member Davy Dick alone makes the membership really worthwhile and value for money plus you can learn about anything one would need for a layout and its operation.

trustytrev.