RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/urgent-safety-advice-022018-safety-of-the-line-after-engineering-work/urgent-safety-advice-022018-safety-of-the-line-after-engineering-work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Incredible! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Who in their right mind would leave a bit of rail like that even during possession work, it is an obvious accident waiting to happen for any staff working near it. As for giving up the line like that unbelievable! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiles Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 The incident at Cradlehall involving the train hitting the length of rail must have been an effective laxative for the poor driver! Amazed that didn't derail... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devonseasider Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 They obviously didn't use Templot to design that piece of trackwork . . . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 RAIB forgot to include the Lewisham derailment in that list : https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-042018-freight-train-derailment-at-lewisham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 RAIB forgot to include the Lewisham derailment in that list : https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-042018-freight-train-derailment-at-lewisham Not quite the same thing as it was a combination of design and method along with uneven vehicle wheel loading. As regards the OP I would refer both the RAIB and NR to Section T of the Rule Book, Clause 11.11 as reissued in November 1990 which explained in precise terms who was responsible for ensuring the line was safe to run on when the work has been completed and the very simple form used to confirm that. Simple procedure, clear responsibility. Incidentally Section TIII at that time also required the PICOP to have a good knowledge of the area in which he was in charge of a possession. This is of course dinosaur railway stuff and clearly not the sort of thing for the 21st century on NR where the PICOP can be several counties away from the site of the possession and might never even have seen the sun over it. But, as I said, this is age of the railway dinosaurs stuff and presumably not suited to modern ideas within NR and RSSB havce about as much practical experience of dealing with possessions as the man on the Clapham omnibus. Cynical moi? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Sounds to me like a case of the answer to 'too many cooks' being 'add another cook'. I'm getting too old for this stuff........(CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Industry becoming a shambles. Each year more and more "belt and braces" safety is being removed from the Rule book, to save time, because time is money......................and money is all that matters, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trog Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Back in the BRassic period when us primitive P-way creatures were all a bit skint and willing to do anything that looked like involving a little (or hopefully a very large amount) of overtime, I would always walk right through any site for which I was ES (Engineering Supervisor) before signing the paperwork and handing the site back to the PICOP (Person In Charge Of Possession). Both because it was the right thing to do for a site for which I was putting my name against as fit for traffic, and because I knew that my boss would show no mercy if he thought I had endangered the safety of the railway out of lazyness. 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 One word springs to mind, SLACK Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 The one missing from the list is surely Cardiff: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/report-152017-serious-irregularity-at-cardiff-east-junction Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) Industry becoming a shambles. Each year more and more "belt and braces" safety is being removed from the Rule book, to save time, because time is money......................and money is all that matters,Not so sure it's a case of "safety is being removed from the Rule Book", possibly more likely to be the Rule Book being an enigma to some of the staff responsible for the safty and integrity of the railway, and said staff not having had a Rule Book issued to them in the first place. I know everything is issued electronically as "soft copies" via the internet these days, but that to me is part of the problem. Yes, I may be one of the BR dinosaurs referred to by 'Mike the Stationmaster', but even now, whether it be a Standard, the Rule Book, Signalling Scheme Plan etc., I find it easier to read a "paper copy" of a document rather than viewing it on a PC screen. On my first day on the railway apart from some hand tools, HV mini-vests, a number of IRSE technical books and a whistle being issued to me, I was also given a copy of the Rule Book (with amendments) and told to read it, keep it updated and keep it with me at all times. This I did for about 10 years. Even today, one of my responsibilities in our office is to keep the "paper copy" of the Rule Book updated with the amendments etc., although the Rule Book has been available electronically for a number of years. It is my view that because the Rule Book "isn't visible" in someone's bag or on the desk, it is never read and is largely forgotten about or totally ignored because it no longer has a "physical presence" - until it is too late, i.e. 'after' an event such as the one highlighted above. Rant over, I'll get of my soap-box now and go back to sleep. Regards, Ian. Edited March 19, 2018 by iands 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) You dont need a rule book to tell you not to leave a scrap rail over the head of a running rail, if they cant see what the problem is with leaving it like that then they have no place being anywhere near a running line. Would it be fair to assume the rail cleared the boundary fence when it was 'moved' by the lifeguard? It was a good job the end of the rail was outside the lifeguard because if the lifeguard had contacted the rail end there is a fair chance of a derailment or the outer rail being displaced as the rail was pushed by the lifeguard,. Whoever is responsible for signing the work off as complete needs to be brought to book! We are having far too many of these 'incidents' after engineering work and more paperwork is not the answer. Edited March 19, 2018 by royaloak 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Joseph_Pestell Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 It's not really surprising. As in the wider construction industry, there is widespread fraud in the issue of cards that attest to professional competence. Result is people that are supposedly qualified in rail safety getting trackside who should never be there. Top bods, including in Govt, have been aware of the issue for years but bury their heads in the sand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edwin_m Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 There's also the so far unexplained situation of most of ATW's class 175 fleet suffering wheel damage and having to be taken out of service a couple of weeks back, due to some sort of undetected track problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 There's also the so far unexplained situation of most of ATW's class 175 fleet suffering wheel damage and having to be taken out of service a couple of weeks back, due to some sort of undetected track problem. Check rail on a point at Maindee West apparently Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 "the door had not been properly secured" "the pile had been left on the track" "the end of a piece of rail......had been left on the track" This is just not good enough. Simple as that. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 (edited) Not so sure it's a case of "safety is being removed from the Rule Book", possibly more likely to be the Rule Book being an enigma to some of the staff responsible for the safty and integrity of the railway, and said staff not having had a Rule Book issued to them in the first place. I know everything is issued electronically as "soft copies" via the internet these days, but that to me is part of the problem. Yes, I may be one of the BR dinosaurs referred to by 'Mike the Stationmaster', but even now, whether it be a Standard, the Rule Book, Signalling Scheme Plan etc., I find it easier to read a "paper copy" of a document rather than viewing it on a PC screen. On my first day on the railway apart from some hand tools, HV mini-vests, a number of IRSE technical books and a whistle being issued to me, I was also given a copy of the Rule Book (with amendments) and told to read it, keep it updated and keep it with me at all times. This I did for about 10 years. Even today, one of my responsibilities in our office is to keep the "paper copy" of the Rule Book updated with the amendments etc., although the Rule Book has been available electronically for a number of years. It is my view that because the Rule Book "isn't visible" in someone's bag or on the desk, it is never read and is largely forgotten about or totally ignored because it no longer has a "physical presence" - until it is too late, i.e. 'after' an event such as the one highlighted above. Rant over, I'll get of my soap-box now and go back to sleep. Regards, Ian. Most definately agree. When sat waiting the road or in a ballast site or even when travelling pass I would quite often dig out and read a K2, but when it became electronic it was almost impossible to read or scroll through to the bits you were interested in. so much so that I can honestly say I didn't properly read a K2 for at least the last two years I was employed as a driver. And I know I wasn't the only one, and also know it was brought up with management several times on 'safety days'. But I doubt it will ever be changed as it's cheaper and again money talks. Edited March 19, 2018 by 101 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2018 You dont need a rule book to tell you not to leave a scrap rail over the head of a running rail, if they cant see what the problem is with leaving it like that then they have no place being anywhere near a running line. Would it be fair to assume the rail cleared the boundary fence when it was 'moved' by the lifeguard? It was a good job the end of the rail was outside the lifeguard because if the lifeguard had contacted the rail end there is a fair chance of a derailment or the outer rail being displaced as the rail was pushed by the lifeguard,. Whoever is responsible for signing the work off as complete needs to be brought to book! We are having far too many of these 'incidents' after engineering work and more paperwork is not the answer. Woken up again. Hi Royaloak, In this instance, no you don't (or shouldn't) need a Rule Book to tell you something that "common sense" should tell you. One of the reasons for a Rule Book, in simple terms, is to act as a "guide" or "reminder" when things are "not as usual", e.g. during perturbation, during/following failures, during/following engineering works, etc., etc. I doubt very much that 130 metres of flat-bottomed rail would have cleared the fence, that is one heavy piece of material. IMO it would have been pushed as far as the sleeper ends at best. Agree, it's not more paperwork we need, just competent staff. Having started in BR and gone through Railtrack, Network Rail and now to a consultancy, one of the more noticeable, and regrettable, outcomes of privatisation has been the gradual decline in "pride" for the job and the "lack of ownership" now that so many contractors are involved that comes with a largely "outsourced workforce". Off the soap-box again and back to sleep. Regards, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold BoD Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 It's not really surprising. As in the wider construction industry, there is widespread fraud in the issue of cards that attest to professional competence. Result is people that are supposedly qualified in rail safety getting trackside who should never be there. Top bods, including in Govt, have been aware of the issue for years but bury their heads in the sand. That, if true, is worrying on so many levels. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scouser Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 Unfortunately it's not just the railway industry. There has been a move to de-skill everything. Skilled people command respect and better pay. Bad managers don't like this, good managers don't care, they just care about doing things properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted March 19, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 19, 2018 That, if true, is worrying on so many levels. There was quite a bit of fraud a few years ago with PTS cards, COSS cards, PICOW cards, etc., being "handed out in pubs" etc., on a Saturday ready for a weekend shift (and I no doubt at other times during the week as well), but this was stamped out a few years ago with the introduction of the Sentinel cards. Not saying there might not be still a bit of fraudulent behaviour going on now with the competency cards, but it is significantly more difficult now and I certainly wouldn't say the use of fraudulent cards is widespread in the railway industry. Yes there may still be a lot of useless prats out there with questionable (railway) knowledge and skills, but they only have to demonstrate once every 1 or 2 years (depending on the specific competency) to an assessor/instructor they understand the requirements of what is required. Regards, Ian. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 19, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted March 19, 2018 Yes there may still be a lot of useless prats out there What has gone wrong with the education system that it seems to turn them out in ever increasing quantities? Here is every issue of the old Meccano Magazine (PDF downloads): https://www.meccanoindex.co.uk/MMpdfs1.php That stuff was written for (and devoured by) 12-year-olds. Nowadays it would have to be drastically dumbed-down even for adults. And the BBC explains the news in the style of a Ladybird book. Martin. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kazmierczak Posted March 19, 2018 Share Posted March 19, 2018 What has gone wrong with the education system that it seems to turn them out in ever increasing quantities? Here is every issue of the old Meccano Magazine (PDF downloads): https://www.meccanoindex.co.uk/MMpdfs1.php That stuff was written for (and devoured by) 12-year-olds. Nowadays it would have to be drastically dumbed-down even for adults. And the BBC explains the news in the style of a Ladybird book. Martin. I never knew the Meccano Magazine was freely available. Thanks for the link Martin. Just read the copy from the month I was born - another world, another world. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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